Replace to be safe, or not?

[Skerd]

Lately going into first gear when all is hot is a 50% chance. Last time this happened (45,000 miles ago) it was the master/slave cylinder thing and replacing them fixed it perfectly. Before I order the parts do you think the infamous redhose item should be replaced also since that might be it. Keep in mind it was replaced 83,000 miles ago by the original owner with the new improved ones. The question is can the improved ones stretch over time also and go bad?

[bazer]

just replaced the red hose with braided hose on my s4. highly recomend you do this. got mine from pmn engineering at a cost of £40.

[bojangles]

why do you recommend it? at least give some technical evidence.....
the red hose is already a big unproven myth... dont add to the mystery .. lets use the forum to solve it.

I have both on my car.. abandoneed red hose and a replacement ss one.

a clutch hydraulic circuit is about the simplest system on the entire car.... push oil in one end of the hose and it comes out the other....unless the hose bulges..that is easy to measure,,,, so why dont people do that...???

Bruce s4s

[bazer]

did you do it Bruce? for the cost involved its simple to just eliminate this as a possible cause.maybe its just the fact that changing the hose means the system gets fresh fluid and a good bleed--i dunno--but it made the difference to mine with a much smoother gear change.i remember in my youth (god so long ago) the morris 1000 my dad owned suffered baddly from the same problem.but i will bow to your superior knowledge should you come up with any facts and stats.cheers bud

[greezmunky]

i think the low cost and realative ease of this mod make it worthwhile even if the gains are not 100% proven. The red hose is a pretty rigid piece of plastic and even if it was somewhat flexible say 1% or even 5% it shouldnt make much of a difference in an otherwise normal system. But say you have a little air in the line and you master cylinder is not sealing 100%.. that 5% may make the difference between 1st gear engaging smoothly or look like an idiot while your car goes "CRUNCH" at traffic lights. I think the improvements that most people "feel" have to do with just flushing the system and adding new fluid.. but at $80 and just over an hour to install it was too easy of a mod to pass up. The case is easier for stainless brake lines as it runs at much higher pressures and requires a much more precise feel then a clutch.

[bojangles]

I dont have any information except the basic knowledge of hydraulics. My car had the hose changed by the PO.

I work in the Automotive industry and I see a whole lot of testing of parts before they go into production. I cant imagine that the basic performance of the red hose was not checked. at least the specs must show that it is good for a certain temperature and pressure range.

I also think that lotus was well aware of the clutch issues and they also did not readily make a change to the hose.

Anyway I am not picking a fight.. i am just a curious being that likes to understand the real issue here. My clutch works perfectly, just heavy as heck..

Not sure what the Canadian environment will do to the car. I'm sure we get problems that others dont..

Bruce S4s

[Paula&Marcus]

Hehehehe ....
Lotus actually did make a change to this hose ... just when all the red plasic hoses they still had in stock have been used up they switched over to a braided steel hose ... this was around MY99 V8 .... ;o)

Cheers
Marcus

[MikeyRide]

bojangles said:

I work in the Automotive industry and I see a whole lot of testing of parts before they go into production. I cant imagine that the basic performance of the red hose was not checked. at least the specs must show that it is good for a certain temperature and pressure range. I also think that lotus was well aware of the clutch issues and they also did not readily make a change to the hose.

I have two thoughts here:

1) Lotus built something like 10000 Esprits over 25 years. While they certainly checked the basics, they just can't afford extensive long-term tests.

2) I seem to recall Dwayne Shumate (he used to be the Field Engineer at LCU) saying something to the effect of "well, we don't really think it's a problem but we have heard from a number of respectable people that a braided hose is better so maybe there's something to it". I think they were of the opinion that most of the improvement came from being forced to do a comprehensive bleed of the system when you install the braided hose.

My car had a braided hose when I bought it so I have no idea what kind of difference it made.

[deecee]

As I understand it, the hose was checked by the manufacturer but someone forgot to factor in the heat being transmitted from the motor.

...and he was probably related to the same guy that forgot to factor metal fatigue into the equation for the pre-stevens intake manifolds.

[cnh1990]

Never thought about testing the hose.
My SS hose only cost $80 with $5 for the fluid.
Myth or not I have no idea but my problem went away. If it was not the actual hose it was perhaps aggresive bleeding of the system.

Either way the problem went away. It probably would be a waste of time to A/B the 2 hoses back and forth till one had solid data. I don't know how much the hose actually costs today but most people will just be happy that the problem went away for $85.

I have heard the same thing Marcus has said about the red hose not used after a certain time by the factory. It is unknown if there was a big problem with it or it was in response to customer fears but they did stop using it. People are really good at changing engine oil, how many people actually change the brake and clutch fluid like they are supposed to? If they did they would have to bleed the system and perhaps that would take care of the problem also.

Just spend the money and change the hose. It really is not a big deal is it?

[karlfranz]

cnh1990 said:

I have heard the same thing Marcus has said about the red hose not used after a certain time by the factory. It is unknown if there was a big problem with it or it was in response to customer fears but they did stop using it.

After somebody read my "Red Hose Syndrome" write-up in the EFF, they "exposed" the problem on a UK investigative reporting TV show which ISTR was called "Watchdog". I believe the same material was being used in the Elise and that this was the car the report focused on.

Back in 1997, a Lotus engineer told me directly that there was no problem with the red hose. However, the hose was changed soon after the report aired to prevent further bad publicity. I believe this happened sometime back in 1998-99.

Cheers,

KFM :-)

[cnh1990]

From what I hear the red hose was used on a few cars but I think the red hose on the Esprit was one of the longest lengths. From what I recall the rest of the hoses were just a few feet long and maybe in the shorther length any type of expansion just did not amount to much difference. In any case with many of the Esprit's pushing 10+ years I would treat the hose like any other hose and just change it out. After all how many Esprit's out there are still running with the original brake lines and coolant hose. I don't know too many around me that are. Plus the SS hose looks much nicer to the eye.

One thing I must say is That EFF has directly affected my Lotus experience in a positive way. It is great resource and has probably saved me much time, aggravation, and expense.

Thanks Karl,

Calvin

PS still hope to meet up with you one day and see your car.

[GreenV8S]

Not on a Lotus, but I've seen a similar red plastic hydraulic clutch pipe on a TVR Vixen which got slightly too close to the exhaust, one day after a run it melted and squirted hydraulic fluid over the exhaust. As you know this fluid is highly flammable and quickly turned the remains of the pipe into a small flame thrower in the middle of the engine bay. Luckily in this case the flames were very obvious and there was pretty good access (and fire marshals within a few yards) to put it out before it did much damage. On any other occasion it could have been very nasty.

[wedg1e]

cnh1990 said:

After all how many Esprit's out there are still running with the original brake lines and coolant hose. I don't know too many around me that are. Plus the SS hose looks much nicer to the eye.

I got my '83 S3 last February. It had been stood for 18 months but had been driven regulalrly prior to that. The first job I did was to replace all the brake lines, which, if they weren't the originals, had been replaced at some point by someone with an eye for detail. Knowing the condition they were in and the grief I went through to get the new ones as tidy as they are, I'm prepared to say I believe they were the original, 21 year old lines. On that basis I'm happy to assume it's also the original (red) clutch line.
I keep hearing the stories about how wondrous a fix the braided one is, but the car has more pressing issues.
Besides, I'm surprised that you lot think $85 (£40) for a braided hose is cheap. Ten feet of braiding on a small-bore rubber tube, with two crimped (swaged) end fittings. Total time to manufacture, about 10 minutes. I must go into business...

[cnh1990]

wedg1e said:

I'm surprised that you lot think $85 (£40) for a braided hose is cheap. Ten feet of braiding on a small-bore rubber tube, with two crimped (swaged) end fittings. Total time to manufacture, about 10 minutes. I must go into business...

I don't know of any Esprit's with the red hose at all. Most of them have already been done where I'm from. You can go make some up and sell them if you can make them cheaper. I consider them cheap. After all someone got the right length, put the right ends on and angle fittings. So it takes only 30 min. to put it in. That's worth it to me to save time and hassle. That's less than as 3 tanks of gas.

[toyroom]

Where do you live ??? I get about half a tank of gas for £40 ($80) !!!!

[cnh1990]

toyroom said:

Where do you live ??? I get about half a tank of gas for £40 ($80) !!!!

I live 20 miles west of St. Paul/Minneapolis metro area of Minnesota in the USA. People refer to this area as the upper midwest 7-8 hours south of the Canadian border.

Current price for a gallon of regular gasoline as of last night was $1.97 US. Filling up my mini van now costs over $30 . Premium is $2.05US/gal.

The price of fuel has spiked up in the last few months and regular in my area has on occassion broken the $2/gal barrier. It is quite disturbing and most people are up in arms over the recent spike in the price of crude oil.

Many fueling stations price their fuel on futures and many stations are selling for the outrageous price of over $2.35/gal during the easter holidays.

We are as of this moment undergoing what is called in the press "gas wars" where gas stations under cut the price of gas of the station down the street. Some stations have defied the state regulation of selling below the offical minimum sale price and they are currently under investigation.
www.startribune.com/stories/462/5337770.html

Gas prices are relative to what one is used to.
I am used to gas prices around $1.50-$1.60/gal. I suppose people that live else where are used to what they pay. In our area proceeds from fuel tax can not be used to fund non transportation projects and that keeps prices in check. From what I understand a good portion of gas costs where you live are taxes.