engine cover alternative w/oversized chargecooler
Discussion
Ok so it looks like I will have to spend about 2k to have an oversized chargecooler shipped in from europe. So what about the engine cover? I don't like the idea of cutting mine and I don't want to leave it unceovered (for heat and appearance issues). I may consider buying an additional cover to modify. Does anyone know where I could get one? Has anyone fabricated one themselves to fit the oversized chargecooler?
John
94 S4
www.skynetworks.gotdns.com
John
94 S4
www.skynetworks.gotdns.com
...I TOTALLY disagree with that.
They are two side of the same coin man...
Bigger turbo/more air vs. Bigger Intercooler/denser air. Same thing, really...
In fact, when touring Hyper Sport (who raced a V8 car last year) they made a big point of explaining how they left boost alone when tuning the car and instead installed an intercooling system that kept the charge below 100 degress most of the time!
Luke.
They are two side of the same coin man...
Bigger turbo/more air vs. Bigger Intercooler/denser air. Same thing, really...
In fact, when touring Hyper Sport (who raced a V8 car last year) they made a big point of explaining how they left boost alone when tuning the car and instead installed an intercooling system that kept the charge below 100 degress most of the time!
Luke.
HI,
I agree with Luke... up to a point. But the main question is what is your intent? If it's just bigger for the sake of bigger, then, that is an end unto itself and no further rhyme, reason or justification need be defined or followed.
A larger chargecooler allows you to make better use of what you already have. You'll have a denser charge which is most likely well within other existing parameters, such as existing MAPs and fuel deliveries and the like. But, if it is too large, then you need to look at the coolant capacity and flow to insure that these are adequate to carry away the additional heat the chargecooler can extract. You may need a larger radiator, higher flowing pump, or both.
But, if you add a larger turbo with the goal of increasing the power/top speed, you can quickly reach diminishing returns with your existing chargecooler. This is because adiabatic heating increases the charge temp approx. 11.8°F for each increased PSI of boost. Consequently, you have little or no net gain without the mitigating effects of a larger chargecooler, which itself robs some of the boost by lowering the charge density.
It's all a very delicate balance and not as easily defined as Bigger = Better. You need to study each aspect of the change. Sometimes, simply hybridizing the tubine/compressor mix can give the return you seek in the simplest, easiest and cheapest form.
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
>> Edited by lotusguy on Friday 11th March 20:25
I agree with Luke... up to a point. But the main question is what is your intent? If it's just bigger for the sake of bigger, then, that is an end unto itself and no further rhyme, reason or justification need be defined or followed.
A larger chargecooler allows you to make better use of what you already have. You'll have a denser charge which is most likely well within other existing parameters, such as existing MAPs and fuel deliveries and the like. But, if it is too large, then you need to look at the coolant capacity and flow to insure that these are adequate to carry away the additional heat the chargecooler can extract. You may need a larger radiator, higher flowing pump, or both.
But, if you add a larger turbo with the goal of increasing the power/top speed, you can quickly reach diminishing returns with your existing chargecooler. This is because adiabatic heating increases the charge temp approx. 11.8°F for each increased PSI of boost. Consequently, you have little or no net gain without the mitigating effects of a larger chargecooler, which itself robs some of the boost by lowering the charge density.
It's all a very delicate balance and not as easily defined as Bigger = Better. You need to study each aspect of the change. Sometimes, simply hybridizing the tubine/compressor mix can give the return you seek in the simplest, easiest and cheapest form.
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
>> Edited by lotusguy on Friday 11th March 20:25
karmavore said:
...I TOTALLY disagree with that.
They are two side of the same coin man...
Bigger turbo/more air vs. Bigger Intercooler/denser air. Same thing, really...
In fact, when touring Hyper Sport (who raced a V8 car last year) they made a big point of explaining how they left boost alone when tuning the car and instead installed an intercooling system that kept the charge below 100 degress most of the time!
Luke.
It's not the same thing at all.
Intercoolers are passive. The intercooler being larger is NOT going to make up for a turbo pushing through tons of overheated air. You can toss on a huge IC and turn up the boost, and be worse off than when you started. Pressure drops across the core will come into play, and the fact that your pushing superheated/inefficient air through it. An intercooler will never be able to make up for the lack of airflow of a turbo.
Volume of air is the name of the game. Less heat, more volume. The IC doesn't have to work nearly as hard if the intake charge isn't already superheated from the turbo working outside it's efficeny range. A turbo that spins at 80K rpm and produces 30lb/min@70% efficiency through a stock IC will blow any stock turbo/large IC combo out of the water. Boost numbers aren't important, it's the flow rate that's important.
I'd venture to say that the stock IC will outflow anything the stock snail (or possibly even some small upgraded units) can throw at it. The oldskool T3 is the problem in this equation.
That race team was designing a system that would see constant use while on the track. The turbo's flowed enough to meet their power goals, but the intercooling (or lack there of on V8 cars) was the issue. They're using a system designed around a particular boost level. I'm sure their IC selection and plubming was closely aligned to the targe power output and flowrate of the twins (assuming they're using stockers). Their goals were geared towards road racing where the engine would be exposed to much harsher temps than any streetcar would see.
Solve the turbo problem first, then move onto the intercooling.
lotusguy said:
HI,
A larger chargecooler allows you to make better use of what you already have. You'll have a denser charge which is most likely well within other existing parameters, such as existing MAPs and fuel deliveries and the like. But, if it is too large, then you need to look at the coolant capacity and flow to insure that these are adequate to carry away the additional heat the chargecooler can extract. You may need a larger radiator, higher flowing pump, or both.
I doubt the stock turbo will approach the limits of the stock IC.
lotusguy said:
But, if you add a larger turbo with the goal of increasing the power/top speed, you can quickly reach diminishing returns with your existing chargecooler. This is because adiabatic heating increases the charge temp approx. 11.8°F for each increased PSI of boost. Consequently, you have little or no net gain without the mitigating effects of a larger chargecooler, which itself robs some of the boost by lowering the charge density.
Not true. PSI is meaningless. The flow rate of the turbo and the flow rate of the intercooler are what's important. You can have 2 turbos sitting side by side. Both can produce 20lbs of boost. Lets say one flows 20lbs of air at 20psi while spinng at 140K rpm shaft speed. The other flows 50lbs at the same boost level at 100K shaft speed. Which one is better? The 2nd turbo obviously. It is flowing more air at the same boost level, while generating less heat due to the slower rotation of the shaft. The temperature on the outlet side of the same intercooler would be LOWER for #2 turbo at the same boost, due to the inlet temperature being lower (less work, more efficient).
lotusguy said:
It's all a very delicate balance and not as easily defined as Bigger = Better. You need to study each aspect of the change. Sometimes, simply hybridizing the tubine/compressor mix can give the return you seek in the simplest, easiest and cheapest form.
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
>> Edited by lotusguy on Friday 11th March 20:25
My future setup is a TO4E 50 trim compressor with a T31 turbine. The TO4E design is much more efficient than the older T3/TO4B hybrids. It will feed 30+lbs to the esprit motor at PR of 2.2 @ 78% eff! Also spool like a mofo due to the light weight compressor wheel, no need for a ballbearing setup.
Edit: 50 trim, not 60
>> Edited by MadMaxx on Friday 11th March 21:45
MadMaxx said:
Intercoolers are passive. The intercooler being larger is NOT going to make up for a turbo pushing through tons of overheated air. You can toss on a huge IC and turn up the boost, and be worse off than when you started. Pressure drops across the core will come into play, and the fact that your pushing superheated/inefficient air through it. An intercooler will never be able to make up for the lack of airflow of a turbo.
Volume of air is the name of the game. Less heat, more volume. The IC doesn't have to work nearly as hard if the intake charge isn't already superheated from the turbo working outside it's efficeny range.
You’re putting words in my mouth, smarty pants. When did I suggest installing a bigger intercooler and then “upping the boost” for which you chastised me? I didn’t. I’m also fully aware of the interplay between flow/pressure/heat so my point was this:
All things being equal, finding a way to better cool the intake charge with out loosing (too much) pressure will yield gains with out changing the turbo.
Of course, if you have the ‘lil T3 boosted to the fringes of it’s compressor map, then ya, you’re SOL.
Chill out,
Luke.
karmavore said:
You’re putting words in my mouth, smarty pants. When did I suggest installing a bigger intercooler and then “upping the boost” for which you chastised me? I didn’t. I’m also fully aware of the interplay between flow/pressure/heat so my point was this:
All things being equal, finding a way to better cool the intake charge with out loosing (too much) pressure will yield gains with out changing the turbo.
Of course, if you have the ‘lil T3 boosted to the fringes of it’s compressor map, then ya, you’re SOL.
Chill out,
Luke.
Well, yes...making what you have more efficient is going to help to an extent. Arbitrarily slapping on a larger IC isn't the answer though. You didn't say "up the boost", but you made the refference to creating a more dense charge. I doubt you would go through the hassle of trying to lower the intake temps while keeping the same (low) volume of air flowing through it. The lower the boost pressure, the less the IC can reduce the intake charge.
The gains on this would still be pretty negligable, as the amount of air being flowed by the tiny snail just isn't cutting it. Durring overboost conditions, I think you have what... 6 seconds of funtime before the backpressure catches up with that tiny turbine?
For stock turbos, I don't see the gain of putting on a 1500$ intercooler. The IC's cooling ability isn't the bottleneck in the system by any means. I still haven't found the flow numbers, but I'd still venture to say the stock IC is plenty for what stockers (or even mild turbo upgrades) can throw at it.
John
contact Dermot as he has an S4 with the big chargecooler
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ohare/
chris
90SE
contact Dermot as he has an S4 with the big chargecooler
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ohare/
chris
90SE
MadMaxx said:
I'd venture to say that the stock IC will outflow anything the stock snail (or possibly even some small upgraded units) can throw at it. The oldskool T3 is the problem in this equation.
You would be "venturing " incorrectly, the stock turbo is so far out of it's effivency range, it's all the stock intercooler can do to keep the temps at even an acceptable level. It is VERY easy to heat soak the stock charge cooler.
You are correct the stock turbo is a weak link and the main weak link, correcting that should be first on the list. But adding a larger cooler helps as well, in two ways, it's less restrictive, and it takes much longer to heat soak. With a proper turbo the larger one won't heat soak.
As for the race team.. well.. they had no choice to add the charge coolers.. they had the turbos so high strung they had to do something to cool the air, or turn the boost down.
The larger coolers fit fine under the early engine cover, but the later covers would require modification.
squelch said:
I'd venture to say that the stock IC will outflow anything the stock snail (or possibly even some small upgraded units) can throw at it. The oldskool T3 is the problem in this equation.
You would be "venturing " incorrectly, the stock turbo is so far out of it's effivency range, it's all the stock intercooler can do to keep the temps at even an acceptable level. It is VERY easy to heat soak the stock charge cooler.
I was talking about the IC's ability to flow total, assuming the turbo was working efficiently. Not the current ability of the IC to cool down air which is crap from the get go. If the t3 worked within it's efficiency range (which probably isn't doing the esprit much goos in terms of making power hehe), then that IC would be plenty would it not? What happens when someone drops in your BB turbo upgrade for example. Is the IC still heat soaking and working despretly to cool the charge? Or is the IC now able to do it's job with a decent huffer and keep the temps where they should be.
The question still remains - what is the flow rate and effectiveness of the IC (when "normal" inlet charge temperatures occur)? Or has that yet to be tested?
John,
Save your money and upgrade your turbo! Even if you go with the pricey WC unit you will come out way ahead.
I'm running one on my car and the factory IC could not be happier. Full boost all the time and charge cooler is ice cold to the touch. Once you put an efficient turbo on the motor installing a double size charge cooler will only succeed in slowing your spool up time and draining your wallet.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the factor IC could flow enough air to support 350-400 hp, this I think is more than enough.
MIke Reed
94'S4
Save your money and upgrade your turbo! Even if you go with the pricey WC unit you will come out way ahead.
I'm running one on my car and the factory IC could not be happier. Full boost all the time and charge cooler is ice cold to the touch. Once you put an efficient turbo on the motor installing a double size charge cooler will only succeed in slowing your spool up time and draining your wallet.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the factor IC could flow enough air to support 350-400 hp, this I think is more than enough.
MIke Reed
94'S4
Yeah, I think that is the route I will take (upgrade turbo first and maybe elect chargecooler pump and reloated radiator/heat exchanger). I have had many people say that the WC unit is a bit too pricey and that there are other alternatives out there with the same performance. However, WC is really the only company that spoke to me and seemed to take the time to talk about what they can offer. I have emailed many others, IE: Innovative Turbo, Forced Performance, Greddy, Turbo Engineering etc. The only one I got a response from was Greddy and they advised they do not have a turbo for the Esprit. No one else even responded.
Can anyone point me to a phone number or email address of a company that can supply me with a turbo comparable with the pricey WC unit? Oh, and it should be someone that isn't "too busy" or "Not really up on the computer age and doesn't check their email often"
Thanks, John
Can anyone point me to a phone number or email address of a company that can supply me with a turbo comparable with the pricey WC unit? Oh, and it should be someone that isn't "too busy" or "Not really up on the computer age and doesn't check their email often"
Thanks, John
MadMaxx said:
Precision Turbo and Engine (PTE) 
www.precisionturbo.net
Did they offer to do work for you? I ask because my friend is a vendor for them and they told me to go away when we asked about doing an Esprit turbo. I would use them as I am running one of their turbos in my Talon.
ironically John, I emailed all those places you mentioned and for my Forced Performance was the only one to get back to me.
well.... what makes the WC unit expensive, it seems, is the ceramic bearings.
If you were to ship your turbo to a company, like TEC, to be reflowed and modified to use ceramic bearing you'd easily spend $1400.
Now will that match what John has done exactly? Who knows, I don't think he wants to share details, but even if it did is the extra $200 worth not having the peace of mind that all of John's R&D gives you?
$1600 is pricey for a turbo perhaps, but it's not an easy price to beat ..if that makes any sense.
Luke.
If you were to ship your turbo to a company, like TEC, to be reflowed and modified to use ceramic bearing you'd easily spend $1400.
Now will that match what John has done exactly? Who knows, I don't think he wants to share details, but even if it did is the extra $200 worth not having the peace of mind that all of John's R&D gives you?
$1600 is pricey for a turbo perhaps, but it's not an easy price to beat ..if that makes any sense.
Luke.
karmavore said:
well.... what makes the WC unit expensive, it seems, is the ceramic bearings.
If you were to ship your turbo to a company, like TEC, to be reflowed and modified to use ceramic bearing you'd easily spend $1400.
Now will that match what John has done exactly? Who knows, I don't think he wants to share details, but even if it did is the extra $200 worth not having the peace of mind that all of John's R&D gives you?
$1600 is pricey for a turbo perhaps, but it's not an easy price to beat ..if that makes any sense.
Luke.
Makes total sense, Luke. Any shop can add ball bearings to the turbo but they will all cost around the same price. In fact, any big turbo or good size turbo with ball bearings is expensive. What you get with John's turbo is an extremely high quality product with years of hands-on R&D with support you can trust. That alone is worth a lot more than $200 if you have the itch for a full out, ball bearing turbo.
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