Can a non-SE be given a chargecooler?
Discussion
I have a 1989 Esprit that is not chargecooled. Considering that a liquid-to-air intercooler could be made locally for a few hundred dollars . . . and the outlets connecting it to the turbo and plenum inlet could be matched to fit the needs . . . .
Is it possible to install a chargecooler (complete with 12 volt pump, in and out lines and a remote heat exchanger) and have the ECM correctly "read" the difference in mixture air temperature by relocating the MAT sensor downstream of the chargecooler? Will the stock ECM read the altered variables and can the stock Delco injectors supply the engine's new needs properly? My fear is the changes the chargecooler creates will equal slight fuel starvation at, say, high speeds leading to a holed piston.
AP
Is it possible to install a chargecooler (complete with 12 volt pump, in and out lines and a remote heat exchanger) and have the ECM correctly "read" the difference in mixture air temperature by relocating the MAT sensor downstream of the chargecooler? Will the stock ECM read the altered variables and can the stock Delco injectors supply the engine's new needs properly? My fear is the changes the chargecooler creates will equal slight fuel starvation at, say, high speeds leading to a holed piston.
AP
Hi Andrew.
I don't know about the techie stuff in your e-mail, but Alan Croft has done it. A link to his comments on this forum can be found here:
www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?t=133328&f=17&h=0
HTH
Jason '89 SE
I don't know about the techie stuff in your e-mail, but Alan Croft has done it. A link to his comments on this forum can be found here:
www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?t=133328&f=17&h=0
HTH
Jason '89 SE
You are right. I had discussed this is detail last year and am going to use the aircon rads (We dont tend to need aircon in the UK anywy). Alan has gone this route and beaten me to it.
The problem is I dont have any knowledge of the ingection system you have. The later system can be adjusted with software and cables avaliable from LEW but I guess you have the GM system. I havent heard of anyone remaping or chiping those but I guess its possible. Luckly I have good old carbs and dont need to worry about the elec-trickery.
Steve
89 Turbo
www.unity1.co.uk/Lotus
The problem is I dont have any knowledge of the ingection system you have. The later system can be adjusted with software and cables avaliable from LEW but I guess you have the GM system. I havent heard of anyone remaping or chiping those but I guess its possible. Luckly I have good old carbs and dont need to worry about the elec-trickery.
Steve
89 Turbo
www.unity1.co.uk/Lotus
The '89 non-SE and the SE both use Delco electronics, but a different ECM.
Adding a charge cooler in itself does not require any additional fueling, however, when adding the chargecooler, typically the turbo is resized to allow additional air flow, this requires more fuel.
The SE has two additional fuel injectors mounted in the plenum nozzle to compensate for the extra fuel needed for the higher air flow.
The ECM from the non-SE does not have the electronics required to drive the additional injectors, so an ECM swap would be needed.
Adding a charge cooler in itself does not require any additional fueling, however, when adding the chargecooler, typically the turbo is resized to allow additional air flow, this requires more fuel.
The SE has two additional fuel injectors mounted in the plenum nozzle to compensate for the extra fuel needed for the higher air flow.
The ECM from the non-SE does not have the electronics required to drive the additional injectors, so an ECM swap would be needed.
Once I swap the ECM and buy the twin injectors (plus any required wiring) will all the earlier non-SE systems & sensors now correctly read to the new ECM without any conflicts? I guess I could just wait to buy a used Lotus chargecooler plenum (with 2 injector holes), new injectors and an ECM and use these to upgrade my non-SE to an SE.
But could I merely use a chargecooler to mildly boost HP and keep the stock ECM and not install the plenum injectors? Sort of a "half-way-to-SE" upgrade.
But could I merely use a chargecooler to mildly boost HP and keep the stock ECM and not install the plenum injectors? Sort of a "half-way-to-SE" upgrade.
AP
I think that you could safely install a charge coller system on your non-SE and still run the stock ECM.
Problems would only arise if you tried to increase your boost levels to that of what an SE is capable of.
In this case you would need the secondary injector system. Running the stock ECM and boost with the charge cooler would provide the performance levels year round that you in the past could only get on very cool days.
If you did want to increase the size of your turbo and increase your fueling, it might be easier to install an aftermarket fuel management unit (Mega squirt, Electromotive)than to try and adapt a later model ECM and harness. One side benefit would be infinite adjustability.
Cheer's
Mike Reed
I think that you could safely install a charge coller system on your non-SE and still run the stock ECM.
Problems would only arise if you tried to increase your boost levels to that of what an SE is capable of.
In this case you would need the secondary injector system. Running the stock ECM and boost with the charge cooler would provide the performance levels year round that you in the past could only get on very cool days.
If you did want to increase the size of your turbo and increase your fueling, it might be easier to install an aftermarket fuel management unit (Mega squirt, Electromotive)than to try and adapt a later model ECM and harness. One side benefit would be infinite adjustability.
Cheer's
Mike Reed
I think that with the stock non-SE arrangement, benifits of the chargecooler without changing anything else would be minimal. Remember that the temp sensor is in the air filter box, not after the turbo. The ECU is looking at that temp and providing fuel accordingly, not looking at the post turbo temp like the SE does. In fact, one could argue that the mixture would be wrong, as the ECU would think the intake temp was 90 degrees, figure the post turbo temp based on that and provide that amount of fueling, when in reality, the post turbo temp would be lower than what the ECU thought, have more O2 in it and the resulting mixture would be too lean. Of course, I think the non-SE code errs way on the rich side, so that may not be as bad as it sounds, but it still would not be "right." I really think the proper way to do it is as John has done before and replace the non-SE parts with SE parts, at least on the motor. That is:
SE:
ECU, air box, charge cooler (or a Ford Cyclone or other aftermarket chargecooler with interconnecting duct work fabbed), injectors, temp sensor relocated, S4s code.
As for cooling the water, I think that the way to go is to dump the stock muffler and put a radiator there and use an electric water pump. I have looked at this before, and (theoreticall speaking, of course) if you "lost" the cat and put a small stainless muffler in about that location, you could then run the exhaust out the same (left) side exit, take the muffler off and put the additional radiator there with some small pusher fans on it. I think I even saw a pic of a V8 set up like this somewhere.
Dr.Hess
'89 non-SE
SE:
ECU, air box, charge cooler (or a Ford Cyclone or other aftermarket chargecooler with interconnecting duct work fabbed), injectors, temp sensor relocated, S4s code.
As for cooling the water, I think that the way to go is to dump the stock muffler and put a radiator there and use an electric water pump. I have looked at this before, and (theoreticall speaking, of course) if you "lost" the cat and put a small stainless muffler in about that location, you could then run the exhaust out the same (left) side exit, take the muffler off and put the additional radiator there with some small pusher fans on it. I think I even saw a pic of a V8 set up like this somewhere.
Dr.Hess
'89 non-SE
You absolutely need extra fuel when installing a chargecooler on a non SE. If you don't run supplemental fuel the engine will go flat and HP drops, even with the stock turbo. This is because the engine is running LEAN.
I KNOW this for a fact!
A stock '89 turbo will work fine with a chargecooler. If you get a SE ECM setup, the chip will run the turbo at no less than 12.5 PSI, non SEs run at 10 PSI.
Here are some pics of my system using mostly stock stuff including the 1228708 ECM. And what fun it was to install. Very rewarding also!
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/showgallery.php?ppuser=247172
Cheers,
Brian
I KNOW this for a fact!
A stock '89 turbo will work fine with a chargecooler. If you get a SE ECM setup, the chip will run the turbo at no less than 12.5 PSI, non SEs run at 10 PSI.
Here are some pics of my system using mostly stock stuff including the 1228708 ECM. And what fun it was to install. Very rewarding also!
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/showgallery.php?ppuser=247172
Cheers,
Brian
Hi there,
sorry for the late input on this one but I have installed this on my car. The difference with yours is that I have carbs instead of injection. I have used the Aircon rad for the system (and pipework) and fitted a 12v pump. It works very well and the cooler does get cold but I now have to get the car set up properly for the fueling on a rolling road to make sure I have no problems. I am going to be increasing the boost via an uprated actuator but again I don't know if this would have a different effect with an ECM.
Any questions feel free to PM me.
Cheers
Alan Croft
89 Turbo (chargecooled)
sorry for the late input on this one but I have installed this on my car. The difference with yours is that I have carbs instead of injection. I have used the Aircon rad for the system (and pipework) and fitted a 12v pump. It works very well and the cooler does get cold but I now have to get the car set up properly for the fueling on a rolling road to make sure I have no problems. I am going to be increasing the boost via an uprated actuator but again I don't know if this would have a different effect with an ECM.
Any questions feel free to PM me.
Cheers
Alan Croft
89 Turbo (chargecooled)
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