MSD for 2004 V-8 Esprit
Discussion
Hola y Coma Estas Fellow Lotistas;
I am looking for an MSD for my 2004 V-8. Anyone out there with first hand experience with an MSD on a V-8, I would appreciate your information.
My experience on other vehicles is better acceleration and better idling. The idling part is what I'm really interested in.
FYI thanks to everyone for all the input on previous inquiries (some good some rather tarty, but all interesting). You guys are a good bunch.
Also can anyone direct me to where I might purchase a shop manual for an 04 V-8 Esprit???
Car is running GREATTT!!!! Awesome, Awesome. I love her.
Thanks Again,
Titus
I am looking for an MSD for my 2004 V-8. Anyone out there with first hand experience with an MSD on a V-8, I would appreciate your information.
My experience on other vehicles is better acceleration and better idling. The idling part is what I'm really interested in.
FYI thanks to everyone for all the input on previous inquiries (some good some rather tarty, but all interesting). You guys are a good bunch.
Also can anyone direct me to where I might purchase a shop manual for an 04 V-8 Esprit???
Car is running GREATTT!!!! Awesome, Awesome. I love her.
Thanks Again,
Titus
Probably not worth the money on a newer car with fairly sophisticated engine management like the 04 Esprit. The more spark in the midrange that the MSD deliver benefits the imprecise mixturing on carb'ed cars much more.
Don't think you'll see any improvement in hp or acceleration, or torque under the graph with the MSD. Car may get slightly better fuel mileage, and you will have the option of a selectable rev limit.
Don't think you'll see any improvement in hp or acceleration, or torque under the graph with the MSD. Car may get slightly better fuel mileage, and you will have the option of a selectable rev limit.
Paul;
It's a Multi Spark Distributor.
More accurately these days they are called MSIS (Multi Spark Spark Ignition Systems). Instead of one blast to the plug, they deliver about 7 per combustion cycle, thus considerably widening the flame front and detonation speed. Your greatest effect is at idle (much smoother due to better burning) and in the hard off line romp where your pouring fuel into the chamber.
I want to try this as I have removed the cats and mufflers, running straight pipes, and am burning a little rich.
Yes I agree I need/want the high end unit, I just wonder if anyone is using one currently that could give me some direction.
Thanks again.
Titus
It's a Multi Spark Distributor.
More accurately these days they are called MSIS (Multi Spark Spark Ignition Systems). Instead of one blast to the plug, they deliver about 7 per combustion cycle, thus considerably widening the flame front and detonation speed. Your greatest effect is at idle (much smoother due to better burning) and in the hard off line romp where your pouring fuel into the chamber.
I want to try this as I have removed the cats and mufflers, running straight pipes, and am burning a little rich.
Yes I agree I need/want the high end unit, I just wonder if anyone is using one currently that could give me some direction.
Thanks again.
Titus
Right, and I probably should have been clearer. MSDs work well and show a real benefit on cars with marginal ignition systems and imprecise fuel/air mixturing - carbs and early EFI. MSD transformed by Rover V8 from a misfiring, no-revving piece of crap to a smooth, revving piece of crap (well, it is in the limited prep class I run it, anyway).
My point is that the better the existing fuel/air management and ignition system, the less likely you are going to see any benefit (even at idle) from an MSD. If the computer is already mixing timing, spark and mixture at idle so that you are getting a good clean burn, 7 more shots of juice aren't going to get you anywhere.
Titus, not trying to discourage you - if you want an MSD by all means go ahead. I have one on my race car. Just that I've been pretty convinced that by the literature that the MSD is no wonder box. It helps older cars with marginal ignitions is simply a cool toy on new cars with better ones.
My point is that the better the existing fuel/air management and ignition system, the less likely you are going to see any benefit (even at idle) from an MSD. If the computer is already mixing timing, spark and mixture at idle so that you are getting a good clean burn, 7 more shots of juice aren't going to get you anywhere.
Titus, not trying to discourage you - if you want an MSD by all means go ahead. I have one on my race car. Just that I've been pretty convinced that by the literature that the MSD is no wonder box. It helps older cars with marginal ignitions is simply a cool toy on new cars with better ones.
OK gentlemen, all well and good and appreciate all the input, but now let's get to the real goods.
Who's system are you using?
The last time I put one in was on an old Mustang that didn't have electronic igintion.
As far as the extremely accurate ignition system, well that all went straight out the window when I took the cats and mufflers off and put in straight pipes (yeah, yeah I've heard it all already, but it sure sounds great and launches like a scalded assed ape- and yes I did put the pre-cat sensors back inline). Overall it runs awesome, much better acceleration, much cooler, it just idles like crap and backfires on downshifts.
So who makes a damn fine unit that will work well with the 2004 Lotus ignition system?
Thanks in advance.
Titus
>> Edited by Titus R on Tuesday 16th November 01:38
Who's system are you using?
The last time I put one in was on an old Mustang that didn't have electronic igintion.
As far as the extremely accurate ignition system, well that all went straight out the window when I took the cats and mufflers off and put in straight pipes (yeah, yeah I've heard it all already, but it sure sounds great and launches like a scalded assed ape- and yes I did put the pre-cat sensors back inline). Overall it runs awesome, much better acceleration, much cooler, it just idles like crap and backfires on downshifts.
So who makes a damn fine unit that will work well with the 2004 Lotus ignition system?
Thanks in advance.
Titus
>> Edited by Titus R on Tuesday 16th November 01:38
Hi,
As compared to the ECU on the V8, an MSD kit is obsolete technology. If you check, I think you'll find that the coil packs discharge twice per cylinder/cycle.
Considering all the functions controlled by the ECU, such as fuel duration, advance, spark, cooling fans etc., adding an MSD box may put all the hardware at cross purposes, in all likelyhood leaving you with something which is less than the sum of it's parts.
If you don't like the idle, try tweaking the ECU via Freescan, you may be able to correct the problem there. If not, check the plugs and the leads, then the wiring harness grounds.
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
As compared to the ECU on the V8, an MSD kit is obsolete technology. If you check, I think you'll find that the coil packs discharge twice per cylinder/cycle.
Considering all the functions controlled by the ECU, such as fuel duration, advance, spark, cooling fans etc., adding an MSD box may put all the hardware at cross purposes, in all likelyhood leaving you with something which is less than the sum of it's parts.
If you don't like the idle, try tweaking the ECU via Freescan, you may be able to correct the problem there. If not, check the plugs and the leads, then the wiring harness grounds.
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
Greetings All;
Appreciate the thoughts.
Not the wiring. Brand spanking new 2004 with 1500 miles. Ran fine before taking the cats out, just way to hot for Texas. It's not in closed loop either, have an OBD II scanner and she checks just fine (in normal range).
I put in K&N air filters, pulled the cats, put in straight pipes, few other odds and ends. Just running a little rich. Going to try the MSD. I'll advise.
I thought the solution might be an after-market race chip, but I've spoken to two different guys who sell them and haven't been able to get a clear answer as to whether their units will look for the post-cat sensors also.
As it stands now, the engine light stays on, but again the engine is not in closed loop. The OBD II scan shows no trouble and the fuel system is operating within limits. Since it started immediately after I pulled the cats, I'm sure it's the post-cat sensors causing the light. The pre-cats show to be operating fine. Anyhow, I'm going to try the MSD and again I'll post my results. I know it won't kill the light, but if it stops the idle surging I'm good.
Anybody know of anyone who has an ECU that will ignore the post cat sensors and turn that damned light out, please let me know.
And yes, I did try O2 simulators and they didn't work at all, they didn't even kill the light. I also reinstalled the post-cat O2 sensors and tie wrapped them up to the cross member, just hoping that would turn the light off, But NOOOOOO!
And no I don't want to put the cats back on. In the summer, you could tan inside the car while idling at a stop light.
Thanks again,
Titus
>> Edited by Titus R on Wednesday 17th November 01:38
>> Edited by Titus R on Wednesday 17th November 01:38
Appreciate the thoughts.
Not the wiring. Brand spanking new 2004 with 1500 miles. Ran fine before taking the cats out, just way to hot for Texas. It's not in closed loop either, have an OBD II scanner and she checks just fine (in normal range).
I put in K&N air filters, pulled the cats, put in straight pipes, few other odds and ends. Just running a little rich. Going to try the MSD. I'll advise.
I thought the solution might be an after-market race chip, but I've spoken to two different guys who sell them and haven't been able to get a clear answer as to whether their units will look for the post-cat sensors also.
As it stands now, the engine light stays on, but again the engine is not in closed loop. The OBD II scan shows no trouble and the fuel system is operating within limits. Since it started immediately after I pulled the cats, I'm sure it's the post-cat sensors causing the light. The pre-cats show to be operating fine. Anyhow, I'm going to try the MSD and again I'll post my results. I know it won't kill the light, but if it stops the idle surging I'm good.
Anybody know of anyone who has an ECU that will ignore the post cat sensors and turn that damned light out, please let me know.
And yes, I did try O2 simulators and they didn't work at all, they didn't even kill the light. I also reinstalled the post-cat O2 sensors and tie wrapped them up to the cross member, just hoping that would turn the light off, But NOOOOOO!
And no I don't want to put the cats back on. In the summer, you could tan inside the car while idling at a stop light.
Thanks again,
Titus
>> Edited by Titus R on Wednesday 17th November 01:38
>> Edited by Titus R on Wednesday 17th November 01:38
I would have thought that the O2 eliminator kit would have done it, it should. I've heard of people adapting to other cars with the problems, Audis/VWs, etc.
There are lots of them available, ones for the GM F Body come to mind (Camaro/Firebird) and they might work. Look them up on the web, lots of places carry them and they are relatively cheap. All you'd have to do is count the number of wires on your O2 sensor and match with an eliminator kit that will plug into your O2 sensors. It should work fine as OBDII systems work in the same fashion as far as responding to emissions systems.
"www.bbkperformance.com/products/new.shtml"
Get it running and slap "Lotus Performance Part" on it and you can charge 5x what it costs for any other car. I'm willing to bet this should solve your problem once you found the right one, and might solve a lot of other V8 owners with the check engine light and no cat problem.
But, if you've tried it and are certain it is a no go then I'm not sure what to tell you.
Ron
>> Edited by rlearp on Wednesday 17th November 01:57
There are lots of them available, ones for the GM F Body come to mind (Camaro/Firebird) and they might work. Look them up on the web, lots of places carry them and they are relatively cheap. All you'd have to do is count the number of wires on your O2 sensor and match with an eliminator kit that will plug into your O2 sensors. It should work fine as OBDII systems work in the same fashion as far as responding to emissions systems.
"www.bbkperformance.com/products/new.shtml"
Get it running and slap "Lotus Performance Part" on it and you can charge 5x what it costs for any other car. I'm willing to bet this should solve your problem once you found the right one, and might solve a lot of other V8 owners with the check engine light and no cat problem.
But, if you've tried it and are certain it is a no go then I'm not sure what to tell you.
Ron
>> Edited by rlearp on Wednesday 17th November 01:57
Ron;
Thanks for the advice. I'll try them, can't hurt. The ECU is supposed to be some version of a late model GM either, Vette or Camaro, with some Italian tuning to it (from what I've been told- but I've come to find when it comes to this Lotus, you get a lot more people talking than actually know what the hell they're talking about).
The O2 sims I used were custom made by Casper's Electronics. All blow and no go. Don't buy anything from these guys. They couldn't be bothered to return a phone call on the occassion when I was able to get someone to answer.
You know it's a real bitch. A brand new, sumptuious looking automobile and it surges at idle, so I've got to toe/heel at every light. That little issue aside, once you give her the lightest touch on the go peddle, she is gone and in a BIG hurry. Way faster than stock. Combine that with how much cooler she runs and it's worth the small problem it created. And of course, the sound is lovely beyond description, just this side of an F-1.
There is a great article about performance exhaust mods and bypassing the cats at Lotus Esprit World:
www.lotusespritworld.com/EModifications/Exhaust_install.html
and this is on a 4 cylinder. Combine this mod with the K&N intakes, System One oil filter (about 300% flow over stock- lower parasitic loss), Iridium plugs (much better fire) and, as you can imagine, it's danger fast. The torque is unbelievable for a 3.5 L engine.
Any thoughts on the chip? Neither Johann nor Marcus know if their chips will ignore the post-cats.
You're spot on about the Lotus tag = 5x. Guy out of California told me if I could resolve the engine light issue, he could sell all the exhaust kits I could build (strictly for track use of course). The sound is just so sweet.
Regards,
Titus
>> Edited by Titus R on Wednesday 17th November 02:14
>> Edited by Titus R on Wednesday 17th November 02:18
>> Edited by Titus R on Wednesday 17th November 03:03
Thanks for the advice. I'll try them, can't hurt. The ECU is supposed to be some version of a late model GM either, Vette or Camaro, with some Italian tuning to it (from what I've been told- but I've come to find when it comes to this Lotus, you get a lot more people talking than actually know what the hell they're talking about).
The O2 sims I used were custom made by Casper's Electronics. All blow and no go. Don't buy anything from these guys. They couldn't be bothered to return a phone call on the occassion when I was able to get someone to answer.
You know it's a real bitch. A brand new, sumptuious looking automobile and it surges at idle, so I've got to toe/heel at every light. That little issue aside, once you give her the lightest touch on the go peddle, she is gone and in a BIG hurry. Way faster than stock. Combine that with how much cooler she runs and it's worth the small problem it created. And of course, the sound is lovely beyond description, just this side of an F-1.
There is a great article about performance exhaust mods and bypassing the cats at Lotus Esprit World:
www.lotusespritworld.com/EModifications/Exhaust_install.html
and this is on a 4 cylinder. Combine this mod with the K&N intakes, System One oil filter (about 300% flow over stock- lower parasitic loss), Iridium plugs (much better fire) and, as you can imagine, it's danger fast. The torque is unbelievable for a 3.5 L engine.
Any thoughts on the chip? Neither Johann nor Marcus know if their chips will ignore the post-cats.
You're spot on about the Lotus tag = 5x. Guy out of California told me if I could resolve the engine light issue, he could sell all the exhaust kits I could build (strictly for track use of course). The sound is just so sweet.
Regards,
Titus
>> Edited by Titus R on Wednesday 17th November 02:14
>> Edited by Titus R on Wednesday 17th November 02:18
>> Edited by Titus R on Wednesday 17th November 03:03
Titus R said:
Anybody know of anyone who has an ECU that will ignore the post cat sensors and turn that damned light out, please let me know.
This one worked fine on my 2001 Elise with a cat-pipe in place to keep the check-engine light off:
www.mileliminators.com/index.html
(post-cat sensors must still be installed an this spliced into the wiring as they only nodify the signal and do not 'generate' it themselves)
If the check-engine light is on and you have an OBD-II scanner, then you should have a atored error code, no? What is the error? Cat-efficiency? Then the MIL-Eliminators can help (after clearing the error code with the OBD-II scanner). If it's any other code it won't help and you have other issues...
Bye, Arno.
Hi Arno,
Our Red Race ECU ignores the post-cat-O2-sensors
It just looks if they are in place, but it ignores the readings.
Cheers
Marcus (www.PUKesprit.de)
Our Red Race ECU ignores the post-cat-O2-sensors
It just looks if they are in place, but it ignores the readings.
Cheers
Marcus (www.PUKesprit.de)
Ok, here are all the replies in one shot:
Marcus, last we talked, your ECU chip wouldn't clear the engine light because it would still look for the post cat chip. At least that's what I understood, and if I'm wrong in that let me know.
The ECU is a GM unit and yes it does take a few runs to reset itself. This is intentional so that it doesn't re-program to some quick anomaly. Yes, I left my O2 sims in for some time. FYI paid 100.00 apiece for mine. The units listed above sell for 29.95. I'm going to try them.
The O2 sims (simulators) are designed to make the computer think it is looking at a good reading from the post cat O2 sensor. It wants to see a higher resistance due to a lower combustible gas level than the pre-cat sensor in the same pipe.
Spoke to MSD and the 6AL is the right unit for the car. It is a GM ECU and ignition system. It takes two (car has two coils) and I am adding two high output coils with a colder plug. At least that should clean up the idle. If all else fails I'll unplug the idiot light.
We shall see.
Titus
CAUTION.... Post Script Correction on MSD Unit:
MSD called back and said the 6AL is not correct. The proper unit is the DIS-4. The 2004 V-8 has no distributor. It uses two coil packs,one for each bank. The good news is, it seems Accell makes the same set up for half the price. When I find out which unit it is, I'll post it. This little project is worse than my boat, like being a rat in a maze, it never ends ........
>> Edited by Titus R on Friday 19th November 00:17
Marcus, last we talked, your ECU chip wouldn't clear the engine light because it would still look for the post cat chip. At least that's what I understood, and if I'm wrong in that let me know.
The ECU is a GM unit and yes it does take a few runs to reset itself. This is intentional so that it doesn't re-program to some quick anomaly. Yes, I left my O2 sims in for some time. FYI paid 100.00 apiece for mine. The units listed above sell for 29.95. I'm going to try them.
The O2 sims (simulators) are designed to make the computer think it is looking at a good reading from the post cat O2 sensor. It wants to see a higher resistance due to a lower combustible gas level than the pre-cat sensor in the same pipe.
Spoke to MSD and the 6AL is the right unit for the car. It is a GM ECU and ignition system. It takes two (car has two coils) and I am adding two high output coils with a colder plug. At least that should clean up the idle. If all else fails I'll unplug the idiot light.
We shall see.
Titus
CAUTION.... Post Script Correction on MSD Unit:
MSD called back and said the 6AL is not correct. The proper unit is the DIS-4. The 2004 V-8 has no distributor. It uses two coil packs,one for each bank. The good news is, it seems Accell makes the same set up for half the price. When I find out which unit it is, I'll post it. This little project is worse than my boat, like being a rat in a maze, it never ends ........
>> Edited by Titus R on Friday 19th November 00:17
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