Looking at 88 Esprit Turbo
Discussion
1988 Lotus Esprit 3rd owner (2nd owner was 3rd uncle) !st owner had it until 93. Sounds like a no stories car. Car has all service records. Last year car was in the shop for some little stuff and the mechanic went through and did more than the owner requested and handed a bill over to the tune of 8100 smackers. This car is a known car to some friends that are more into Ferraris than Lotus. Exterior is clean as a whistle with the exception of the front lip it has some rock chips but I guess that is to be expected. Interior is in great shape with the exception to the headliner he said it started to pull away from the foam. How much of a problem is this to recover in a different material? He said the material that is the headliner now looks very thin. Any thing i should be asking him?
Thanks,
Pat
Thanks,
Pat
Headliners are relatively easy and inexpensive to replace - figure $300 or so in whatever fabric you choose.
The key thing with any Esprit is the service history and the miles driven. Low mileage cars can be just as problematic as high mileage cars. You want something in the middle - driven enough to make sure seals, etc. are kept in good condition. A complete, documented service history is your best guide to a no-stories car.
Mike
'83 Esprit Turbo (The Fabulous Trashwagon)
'05 Elise
The key thing with any Esprit is the service history and the miles driven. Low mileage cars can be just as problematic as high mileage cars. You want something in the middle - driven enough to make sure seals, etc. are kept in good condition. A complete, documented service history is your best guide to a no-stories car.
Mike
'83 Esprit Turbo (The Fabulous Trashwagon)
'05 Elise
Pat,
Who in Texas? The USA Lotus community is pretty tight on the various YahooGroups mailing lists and the turboesprit list is one of the more active. We may know the seller or the car, or we may have contacts in Texas who do. If you don't wish to post his name publically (proper respect for a third party's privacy), then let me know offline at tengel@mchsi.com.
If you are considering a 1988 Esprit, there is a very clean one for sale right here in the Twin Cities. Tom isn't a member of either local Lotus club, but I've known of the car for years... the last two owners. This car has also been "refreshed" recently by GT Cars... a Lotus-knowledgeable local shop.
There are two 1988 Esprits in the LOON. If you would like to get a close look at one to better understand what the Texas car is all about, I can arrange that. As a matter of fact, I'll be going out to Glenn's house sometime soon to work on his Europa. You would be welcome to tag along to look at his '88.
:-/
I hesitate to even mention this since I'd hate to see Glenn part with his cars. But he has too little time for his toys and they haven't been getting much use, so he's been talking about selling the Europa and Esprit. Bummer. But I guess that means there are two 1988's in the Cities that are for sale, both with recent service historys.
Contact me by direct e-mail, on loon-mn, or call me... you have my phone numbers. I promise, not to twist your arm about joining the club.
;-)
Regards,
Tim Engel
Lotus Owners Oftha North
>> Edited by Esprit2 on Thursday 21st October 17:27
Who in Texas? The USA Lotus community is pretty tight on the various YahooGroups mailing lists and the turboesprit list is one of the more active. We may know the seller or the car, or we may have contacts in Texas who do. If you don't wish to post his name publically (proper respect for a third party's privacy), then let me know offline at tengel@mchsi.com.
If you are considering a 1988 Esprit, there is a very clean one for sale right here in the Twin Cities. Tom isn't a member of either local Lotus club, but I've known of the car for years... the last two owners. This car has also been "refreshed" recently by GT Cars... a Lotus-knowledgeable local shop.
There are two 1988 Esprits in the LOON. If you would like to get a close look at one to better understand what the Texas car is all about, I can arrange that. As a matter of fact, I'll be going out to Glenn's house sometime soon to work on his Europa. You would be welcome to tag along to look at his '88.
:-/
I hesitate to even mention this since I'd hate to see Glenn part with his cars. But he has too little time for his toys and they haven't been getting much use, so he's been talking about selling the Europa and Esprit. Bummer. But I guess that means there are two 1988's in the Cities that are for sale, both with recent service historys.
Contact me by direct e-mail, on loon-mn, or call me... you have my phone numbers. I promise, not to twist your arm about joining the club.
;-)
Regards,
Tim Engel
Lotus Owners Oftha North
>> Edited by Esprit2 on Thursday 21st October 17:27
enzomn said:
Car is located in Texas and I'm in Minnesota. Would you get a car inspected that just went through a major overhaul to the tune of 8100? This guy is a car collector (has like 16 of them). He is also tied to some big collectors that have vouched for the car and have driven it.
Pat,
I would absolutely check it out before I bought it. You didn't really say what was covered in that $8100, but what if it needed $15000 worth of work? It doesn't take much to get to 8 grand if you're paying a high priced mechanic to do the work.
If he is a collector with 16 other collectibles then chances are the car did not get driven enough to keep it in tip top shape. Also his collector buddies aren't going to be there when it's time for you to start writing checks.
: It might be a great deal or a big mistake it's really hard to tell from the info you've posted.
You've got access in MN to some of the most knowledgeable Lotus guys around so give them all the info and heed their advice. They certainly helped me out when I bought mine and I'm forever grateful.
Good luck in you search!
Jim
95 S4s
Pat,
The headliner material is foam-backed fabric (sort of a soft velour... mouse fur). As the foam ages and/or is exposed to high heat (Texas sun ?), it crumbles to dust. It's not just a matter of de-laminating such that you can re-glue it. The only proper fix is replacement.
The foam-laminated fabric is available from Lotus, or very similar (same ??) material is available through local Twin Cities fabric distributors. I've got a sample of the local stuff in two thicknesses.
It's important to use a high-temp adhesive when installing the headliner. Some spray-on aerosol adhesives work well initially, but let go on a hot day. An automotive upholstery shop will have the proper adhesive. If you decide to tackle the job yourself, be sure to use a hi-temp adhesive.
The Bosch injection system uses a lot of relays and they tend to develop continuity problems with age. Pull a few and inspect the external terminals for corrosion. That may give you some clue as to their general condition but it won't tell you anything about the internal contacts. Most of the relays are ordinary SPST and SPDT automotive relays and cheap, so it wouldn't be a big deal to just replace them all.
Esprits in general suffer from leaky rear quarter windows. Water that gets in drips down into the fuel tank bay and saturates a foam pad under the tank. It's not uncommon for good looking, clean Esprits to suffer from rusted, leaking fuel tanks... although that may be less of an issue in Texas. At a minimum, ask if there are any signs of water staining around the windows, is the foam under the tanks wet, and are there any fuel leaks or strong gasoline odors.
The stock fuel system vent hoses are know to crumble and crack, leading to strong gas smell. Ask if the vent tubes have been replaced.
All Esprits are nice cars, and taken for what they are, they will deliver a great driving experience. However, if you have any thoughts of "improving" the cars performance, the Bosch injected models are probably the least accommodating of change. It can be done, but...
If you would like to up the power a bit, then the 1989 and newer Esprits with the GM engine management system and ChargeCooler offer more flexibility. Big Hp gains can be as simple as a plug-n-play chip.
The Citroen gearbox used in earlier Esprits (including the Federal 1988 model) are pushing their limits at stock power levels. If you thirst for more power, then the Renault transaxle used in the later cars is a stronger unit. Not bullet proof, but stronger.
Both gearboxes tend to use up the 2nd gear synchro before the others so it's not uncommon to graunch second if you hurry the shift. Ask if the gearbox has ever been rebuilt or the synchro's replaced.
Ask if it's difficult to put the gearbox into gear with the clutch depressed. The clutch hydraulic line is red plastic. When it gets hot (ie, Texas heat, or running through the engine bay) it becomes pliable and prone to stretch. Worst case, it can "contribute" to the clutch not releasing fully and dragging a bit. That will make shifting in general difficult. If the transmission shifts well with the engine off, but with difficulty with the engine running, the red hose may be part of the problem. It's common to replace the red hose with stainless braided hose (ie, Aeroquip). Since it's a Texas Esprit, it's likely that's been done already... but ask.
For those same hard shifting symptoms, there's a worse possibility. The Citroen input shaft is spring loaded forward and is retained by a very light circlip (snap ring). Then there's a Nylatron thrust washer between the end of the input shaft and the crankshaft and really wimpy pilot bearing. If the thrust washer wears away or if the circlip fails (in which case the thrust washer "will" wear away), then the input shaft will rub directly on the crank/ pilot bearing. It will fairly quickly machine it's way into the back end of the crank.
Symptoms will feel much like a dragging clutch/ red hose issue and shifting will be difficult. If the car has any shifting difficulties that are not resolved by properly adjusting the clutch and/or replacing the red hose, be suspicious of input shaft/ thrust washer issues. The fix will include removing the crank from the engine for machining, a new pilot bearing, clutch, release bearing and input shaft. And a lot of labor.
The real fix is to replace the wimpy needle pilot bearing (spigot bearing) with a proper deep-groove ball bearing similar to (but different) the one used in Esprits with Renault transaxles. The ball bearing can cope with the input shaft loads without the Nylatron thrust washer and the issue goes away. Amongst the LOON "wrenches" that's become our default upgrade whenever we have the engine/ transaxle out of an early Esprit.
Don't get paranoid about it... there are a lot of Citroen-Esprits running around without shifting problems. Just be aware of the symptoms. Ask when you are buying. Pay attention as an owner and address issues as they come up. This is one problem that never gets better if you ignore it.
I have the Service Notes (shop manual) and Parts Manuals for all Esprits from 1977-1997. You are welcome to tap the library if you wish to do a little "light" reading... bit you will find the Lotus manuals are not laid out for an easy read. The exploded parts diagrams in the Parts Manual really help in understanding how the car goes together.
We could really accelerate your '88 Esprit Education if a few of us stood around one and talked about what makes them tick. Visual aids really help. I'm a local phone call away and you have my number. Or e-mail me at tengel@mchsi.com or through loon-mn... you are subscribed there. You don't need to join the club to seek assistance... no commitments.
Regards,
Tim Engel
Lotus Owners Oftha North
The headliner material is foam-backed fabric (sort of a soft velour... mouse fur). As the foam ages and/or is exposed to high heat (Texas sun ?), it crumbles to dust. It's not just a matter of de-laminating such that you can re-glue it. The only proper fix is replacement.
The foam-laminated fabric is available from Lotus, or very similar (same ??) material is available through local Twin Cities fabric distributors. I've got a sample of the local stuff in two thicknesses.
It's important to use a high-temp adhesive when installing the headliner. Some spray-on aerosol adhesives work well initially, but let go on a hot day. An automotive upholstery shop will have the proper adhesive. If you decide to tackle the job yourself, be sure to use a hi-temp adhesive.
The Bosch injection system uses a lot of relays and they tend to develop continuity problems with age. Pull a few and inspect the external terminals for corrosion. That may give you some clue as to their general condition but it won't tell you anything about the internal contacts. Most of the relays are ordinary SPST and SPDT automotive relays and cheap, so it wouldn't be a big deal to just replace them all.
Esprits in general suffer from leaky rear quarter windows. Water that gets in drips down into the fuel tank bay and saturates a foam pad under the tank. It's not uncommon for good looking, clean Esprits to suffer from rusted, leaking fuel tanks... although that may be less of an issue in Texas. At a minimum, ask if there are any signs of water staining around the windows, is the foam under the tanks wet, and are there any fuel leaks or strong gasoline odors.
The stock fuel system vent hoses are know to crumble and crack, leading to strong gas smell. Ask if the vent tubes have been replaced.
All Esprits are nice cars, and taken for what they are, they will deliver a great driving experience. However, if you have any thoughts of "improving" the cars performance, the Bosch injected models are probably the least accommodating of change. It can be done, but...
If you would like to up the power a bit, then the 1989 and newer Esprits with the GM engine management system and ChargeCooler offer more flexibility. Big Hp gains can be as simple as a plug-n-play chip.
The Citroen gearbox used in earlier Esprits (including the Federal 1988 model) are pushing their limits at stock power levels. If you thirst for more power, then the Renault transaxle used in the later cars is a stronger unit. Not bullet proof, but stronger.
Both gearboxes tend to use up the 2nd gear synchro before the others so it's not uncommon to graunch second if you hurry the shift. Ask if the gearbox has ever been rebuilt or the synchro's replaced.
Ask if it's difficult to put the gearbox into gear with the clutch depressed. The clutch hydraulic line is red plastic. When it gets hot (ie, Texas heat, or running through the engine bay) it becomes pliable and prone to stretch. Worst case, it can "contribute" to the clutch not releasing fully and dragging a bit. That will make shifting in general difficult. If the transmission shifts well with the engine off, but with difficulty with the engine running, the red hose may be part of the problem. It's common to replace the red hose with stainless braided hose (ie, Aeroquip). Since it's a Texas Esprit, it's likely that's been done already... but ask.
For those same hard shifting symptoms, there's a worse possibility. The Citroen input shaft is spring loaded forward and is retained by a very light circlip (snap ring). Then there's a Nylatron thrust washer between the end of the input shaft and the crankshaft and really wimpy pilot bearing. If the thrust washer wears away or if the circlip fails (in which case the thrust washer "will" wear away), then the input shaft will rub directly on the crank/ pilot bearing. It will fairly quickly machine it's way into the back end of the crank.
Symptoms will feel much like a dragging clutch/ red hose issue and shifting will be difficult. If the car has any shifting difficulties that are not resolved by properly adjusting the clutch and/or replacing the red hose, be suspicious of input shaft/ thrust washer issues. The fix will include removing the crank from the engine for machining, a new pilot bearing, clutch, release bearing and input shaft. And a lot of labor.
The real fix is to replace the wimpy needle pilot bearing (spigot bearing) with a proper deep-groove ball bearing similar to (but different) the one used in Esprits with Renault transaxles. The ball bearing can cope with the input shaft loads without the Nylatron thrust washer and the issue goes away. Amongst the LOON "wrenches" that's become our default upgrade whenever we have the engine/ transaxle out of an early Esprit.
Don't get paranoid about it... there are a lot of Citroen-Esprits running around without shifting problems. Just be aware of the symptoms. Ask when you are buying. Pay attention as an owner and address issues as they come up. This is one problem that never gets better if you ignore it.
I have the Service Notes (shop manual) and Parts Manuals for all Esprits from 1977-1997. You are welcome to tap the library if you wish to do a little "light" reading... bit you will find the Lotus manuals are not laid out for an easy read. The exploded parts diagrams in the Parts Manual really help in understanding how the car goes together.
We could really accelerate your '88 Esprit Education if a few of us stood around one and talked about what makes them tick. Visual aids really help. I'm a local phone call away and you have my number. Or e-mail me at tengel@mchsi.com or through loon-mn... you are subscribed there. You don't need to join the club to seek assistance... no commitments.
Regards,
Tim Engel
Lotus Owners Oftha North
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