What is the benefit of a Nikasil liner?
Discussion
I plan to to re-build an 88 Esprit engine in replacement to my 84 carb engine. I bought a Tec 3 electromotive to use as my ECU. Standalone ECU is the key to this project.
The 88 engine has a bad liners and has to go. I would like to order a .30 over sets of forged pistons to Wiseco or JE. It will cost me lots of dough to get a sets of Nikasil lotus liners. I am considering to go with carbon chrome and molybdenum materials (as my first choice). I've been told by the Sleeves company
www.lasleeve.com/ that there's also a second alternative called "Nodular" a high tensile strength, air quenched iron material that used for high performance fuel blown motor and much cheaper than Lotus Nikasil. I've been told to use between 6 to 8 thousands piston ring gap if plan to use their material.
I like to know your opinion about the hype of Lotus Nikasil vs a million (billion actually) miles proben conventional sleeve wall.
>>> Edited by lotus7racer on Thursday 14th October 16:12
The 88 engine has a bad liners and has to go. I would like to order a .30 over sets of forged pistons to Wiseco or JE. It will cost me lots of dough to get a sets of Nikasil lotus liners. I am considering to go with carbon chrome and molybdenum materials (as my first choice). I've been told by the Sleeves company
www.lasleeve.com/ that there's also a second alternative called "Nodular" a high tensile strength, air quenched iron material that used for high performance fuel blown motor and much cheaper than Lotus Nikasil. I've been told to use between 6 to 8 thousands piston ring gap if plan to use their material.
I like to know your opinion about the hype of Lotus Nikasil vs a million (billion actually) miles proben conventional sleeve wall.
>>> Edited by lotus7racer on Thursday 14th October 16:12
I have wondered about this too. Last time I did a motor (it has been a while), sleeves were about $30 a hole, installed. Can't be too much over $50 today. Why not use a conventional sleeve? Combine that with the Saab pistons (I think, need to get with Sietze K.) with the valve reliefs cut out and you could rebuild a 9XX motor on the cheap. For what they want for the Nikasil liners, you could just about build your own machine shop. One large would get you a useable surplus lathe to turn a store-bought sleeve on to match the required profile, and four large would get you a nice new one with about everything you need.
I think the stand alone ECU idea is great. I would think about going MegaSquirt/Jolt just for the heck of it.
When I finish my current project (Seven) and get caught up and am looking for another project, I might look for a Excel to have something cheap with the 9XX series to play with. One went on ebay for $500 not too long ago. Not to offend any Excel owners, I think they are about butt-ugly, but the dog can ride in the back.
Dr.Hess
I think the stand alone ECU idea is great. I would think about going MegaSquirt/Jolt just for the heck of it.
When I finish my current project (Seven) and get caught up and am looking for another project, I might look for a Excel to have something cheap with the 9XX series to play with. One went on ebay for $500 not too long ago. Not to offend any Excel owners, I think they are about butt-ugly, but the dog can ride in the back.
Dr.Hess
Hi,
The Nikasil liners do have a special Nikasil-coating that reduces friction and wear.
If you ever have looked at a 50000miles old Nikasil-liner in comparison to a normal steel one you will notice that the Nikasil liner virtually has no signs of wear on its surface.
I personally donot feel bad about replacing the Nikasil liners with normal steel ones in combination with proper pistons. The running-in/bedding-in procedure with normal liners may be more important than with Nikasil ones ...
Jim, where are you ? Any comments from you ... ?
Cheers
Marcus (www.PUKesprit.de)
>> Edited by paula&marcus on Thursday 14th October 17:32
The Nikasil liners do have a special Nikasil-coating that reduces friction and wear.
If you ever have looked at a 50000miles old Nikasil-liner in comparison to a normal steel one you will notice that the Nikasil liner virtually has no signs of wear on its surface.
I personally donot feel bad about replacing the Nikasil liners with normal steel ones in combination with proper pistons. The running-in/bedding-in procedure with normal liners may be more important than with Nikasil ones ...
Jim, where are you ? Any comments from you ... ?
Cheers
Marcus (www.PUKesprit.de)
>> Edited by paula&marcus on Thursday 14th October 17:32
Hi,
The one obvious advantage is that the expansion coefficient between the piston and the liner are closer with the Nikisil, due to the base alloy liner, meaning they expand/contract at near the same rate. Also, the nickle/silicon carbide is much harder as well as providing better wettable characteristics (ability to attract and hold oil), the tolerances between the piston, rings and liner can be tighter. it's a good material.
There are a number of shops (primarily motorcycle and marine repair) which recoat liners w/ Nikasil and guarantee the work for considerably less than the cost of even conventional liners. Perhaps you should contact some of these:
http://jcperformance-engines.com/bigbore.htm
http://kustom-kraft.com/NEWNIKASIL.html
www.bore-tech.com/services.htm
Hope this helps.
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
>> Edited by lotusguy on Thursday 14th October 16:28
The one obvious advantage is that the expansion coefficient between the piston and the liner are closer with the Nikisil, due to the base alloy liner, meaning they expand/contract at near the same rate. Also, the nickle/silicon carbide is much harder as well as providing better wettable characteristics (ability to attract and hold oil), the tolerances between the piston, rings and liner can be tighter. it's a good material.
There are a number of shops (primarily motorcycle and marine repair) which recoat liners w/ Nikasil and guarantee the work for considerably less than the cost of even conventional liners. Perhaps you should contact some of these:
http://jcperformance-engines.com/bigbore.htm
http://kustom-kraft.com/NEWNIKASIL.html
www.bore-tech.com/services.htm
Hope this helps.
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
>> Edited by lotusguy on Thursday 14th October 16:28
Dr.Hess
I have got an 1981 S3 which is running MegaSquirt'n'EDIS so hence no carbs or distributor. MegaSquirt is a great unit (only costing £100) and the car is now running really well now that I have had a chance to tune it, much better than with the carbs.
If you want more details/photos let me know.
Andy
I have got an 1981 S3 which is running MegaSquirt'n'EDIS so hence no carbs or distributor. MegaSquirt is a great unit (only costing £100) and the car is now running really well now that I have had a chance to tune it, much better than with the carbs.
If you want more details/photos let me know.
Andy
hilly said:
Dr.Hess
I have got an 1981 S3 which is running MegaSquirt'n'EDIS so hence no carbs or distributor. MegaSquirt is a great unit (only costing £100) and the car is now running really well now that I have had a chance to tune it, much better than with the carbs.
If you want more details/photos let me know.
Andy
Andy,
I would love more info. Send it offlist to:
zman874931@aol.com
Thanks
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
Dr. Hess,
"When I finish my current project (Seven) "
Yes! I went the other way first. I just finished my seven. Pls put http://
<a href="http://www.mjmturbos.com/images/busa03.jpg">www.mjmturbos.com/images/busa03.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.mjmturbos.com/images/busa01.jpg">www.mjmturbos.com/images/busa01.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.mjmturbos.com/images/busa03.jpg">www.mjmturbos.com/images/busa03.jpg</a>
Its Hayabusa turbocharged engine. Made 372hp lastweek in the dyno...could have harness more if the ECU is running right.
Anyway, the La sleeve said, if the tolerance of the piston gap is within 6 to 8 thousandt, there is no reason to spend big bucks on Nikasil. He has seen it all. There is always good things and bad things in each compositions. So, at this point I am contemplating to go ahead but its nice to hear from everybody.
>> Edited by lotus7racer on Thursday 14th October 17:01
>> Edited by lotus7racer on Thursday 14th October 17:01
"When I finish my current project (Seven) "
Yes! I went the other way first. I just finished my seven. Pls put http://
<a href="http://www.mjmturbos.com/images/busa03.jpg">www.mjmturbos.com/images/busa03.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.mjmturbos.com/images/busa01.jpg">www.mjmturbos.com/images/busa01.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.mjmturbos.com/images/busa03.jpg">www.mjmturbos.com/images/busa03.jpg</a>
Its Hayabusa turbocharged engine. Made 372hp lastweek in the dyno...could have harness more if the ECU is running right.
Anyway, the La sleeve said, if the tolerance of the piston gap is within 6 to 8 thousandt, there is no reason to spend big bucks on Nikasil. He has seen it all. There is always good things and bad things in each compositions. So, at this point I am contemplating to go ahead but its nice to hear from everybody.
>> Edited by lotus7racer on Thursday 14th October 17:01
>> Edited by lotus7racer on Thursday 14th October 17:01
Cool car. Here's the links:
www.mjmturbos.com/images/BusaProject.jpg
www.mjmturbos.com/images/Busaproject2.jpg
www.mjmturbos.com/images/BusaprojectA.jpg
Amazing that the motor can handle that. What were the internal mods to do it? How much boost at that level?
At the motorcycle rally here two weeks ago, they had a dyno drag where two bikes run a simulated drag on side-by-side chassis dynos. A stock Hiyabusa did a simulated 9.6 quarter at 146 and put down 157HP at the wheel. Simulated 180MPH in the 1/2 mile with 154HP on that run.
Here is my page on my Seven:
http://home.flash.net/~hess/papillon.htm
Dr.Hess
www.mjmturbos.com/images/BusaProject.jpg
www.mjmturbos.com/images/Busaproject2.jpg
www.mjmturbos.com/images/BusaprojectA.jpg
Amazing that the motor can handle that. What were the internal mods to do it? How much boost at that level?
At the motorcycle rally here two weeks ago, they had a dyno drag where two bikes run a simulated drag on side-by-side chassis dynos. A stock Hiyabusa did a simulated 9.6 quarter at 146 and put down 157HP at the wheel. Simulated 180MPH in the 1/2 mile with 154HP on that run.
Here is my page on my Seven:
http://home.flash.net/~hess/papillon.htm
Dr.Hess
All the points mentioned so far are valid... same coefficient of expansion, reduced friction and wear, tighter clearances… plus lighter weight. But the key point was the expansion rates.
The advantage wasn't so much between the piston and liner, but at the head and gasket. The aluminum block/ head and iron liners not only expand at different rates, but see different overall temperatures. As a result, there is a small dimensional-fit change that that takes place between the top of the iron liner and the gasket with each full heat cycle. That greatly complicates getting and maintaining a good seal.
Early 9XX engines didn't have a chronic problem with blown head gaskets, but it was certainly high on the list of problems. And it only became more problematic as boost pressures went up. Switching to Nikasil coated aluminum alloy liners really minimized the problem, and all the other benefits were icing on the cake.
In a naturally aspirated 9XX, the incremental benefits of the Nikasil liners probably aren't worth the expense. In the normal life expectancy, it's not the liners that wear out first.
But in the turbo motors, especially as the boost pressure kept going up, the Nikasil liners become much more necessary. That's especially true for the later models where the boost can become much higher with the simple installation of a chip from Marcus.
The HCI engines really don't present much of a problem in stock form, and you could probably build a case for using iron liners in a pinch. But, I think it would be a false economy to rebuild an SE or later engine with iron liners.
Later,
Tim Engel
Lotus Owners Oftha North
The advantage wasn't so much between the piston and liner, but at the head and gasket. The aluminum block/ head and iron liners not only expand at different rates, but see different overall temperatures. As a result, there is a small dimensional-fit change that that takes place between the top of the iron liner and the gasket with each full heat cycle. That greatly complicates getting and maintaining a good seal.
Early 9XX engines didn't have a chronic problem with blown head gaskets, but it was certainly high on the list of problems. And it only became more problematic as boost pressures went up. Switching to Nikasil coated aluminum alloy liners really minimized the problem, and all the other benefits were icing on the cake.
In a naturally aspirated 9XX, the incremental benefits of the Nikasil liners probably aren't worth the expense. In the normal life expectancy, it's not the liners that wear out first.
But in the turbo motors, especially as the boost pressure kept going up, the Nikasil liners become much more necessary. That's especially true for the later models where the boost can become much higher with the simple installation of a chip from Marcus.
The HCI engines really don't present much of a problem in stock form, and you could probably build a case for using iron liners in a pinch. But, I think it would be a false economy to rebuild an SE or later engine with iron liners.
Later,
Tim Engel
Lotus Owners Oftha North
I just recently had to cross that bridge...
I bought a 1986 910 for my Jensen-Healey which some Lotus dealer really botched.
Instead of paying the ridiculous price for new liners and pistons, I found an alternative. Check out www.uschrome.com, they do a lot of motorcycle and Porsche liners.
Their process is to take your liners, strip off the Nikasil, and replace it with a Chrome and Silicone Carbide matrix up to .015" thick. The liner is then honed to match your pistons (I used JE flat-top since my car is n/a).
I bought a 1986 910 for my Jensen-Healey which some Lotus dealer really botched.
Instead of paying the ridiculous price for new liners and pistons, I found an alternative. Check out www.uschrome.com, they do a lot of motorcycle and Porsche liners.
Their process is to take your liners, strip off the Nikasil, and replace it with a Chrome and Silicone Carbide matrix up to .015" thick. The liner is then honed to match your pistons (I used JE flat-top since my car is n/a).
I just recently had to cross that bridge...
I bought a 1986 910 for my Jensen-Healey which some Lotus dealer really botched.
Instead of paying the ridiculous price for new liners and pistons, I found an alternative. Check out www.uschrome.com, they do a lot of motorcycle and Porsche liners.
Their process is to take your liners, strip off the Nikasil, and replace it with a Chrome and Silicone Carbide matrix up to .015" thick. The liner is then honed to match your pistons (I used JE flat-top since my car is n/a).
I bought a 1986 910 for my Jensen-Healey which some Lotus dealer really botched.
Instead of paying the ridiculous price for new liners and pistons, I found an alternative. Check out www.uschrome.com, they do a lot of motorcycle and Porsche liners.
Their process is to take your liners, strip off the Nikasil, and replace it with a Chrome and Silicone Carbide matrix up to .015" thick. The liner is then honed to match your pistons (I used JE flat-top since my car is n/a).
Thanks Judson,
I spoke to them and been told that I need to send the liner and they will check it out. My liner is pretty bad. The engine caught fire and water entered the cylinder and blistered the wall. I've been told that, at worse they can bore the cylinder and take the blister out or if its pretty bad, they can weld it too then the chroming or nikasil plating process will continue.
I didn't ask if they do make forged piston. Do you know if they do? MY I ask how much Je charged you with the sets of forged pistons? are they overbored?
I spoke to them and been told that I need to send the liner and they will check it out. My liner is pretty bad. The engine caught fire and water entered the cylinder and blistered the wall. I've been told that, at worse they can bore the cylinder and take the blister out or if its pretty bad, they can weld it too then the chroming or nikasil plating process will continue.
I didn't ask if they do make forged piston. Do you know if they do? MY I ask how much Je charged you with the sets of forged pistons? are they overbored?
judson said:
I just recently had to cross that bridge...
I bought a 1986 910 for my Jensen-Healey which some Lotus dealer really botched.
Instead of paying the ridiculous price for new liners and pistons, I found an alternative. Check out www.uschrome.com, they do a lot of motorcycle and Porsche liners.
Their process is to take your liners, strip off the Nikasil, and replace it with a Chrome and Silicone Carbide matrix up to .015" thick. The liner is then honed to match your pistons (I used JE flat-top since my car is n/a).
Hi,
I did some research on the chroming process. In general, it's very good, but it doesn't bond the way that Nikasil does to the liner itself. Due to it's hardness, it can be a real problem if it ever chips or otherwise works loose. To a lesser extent, the same is true of the Nikasil, except that it's bonding strength reduces this potential considerably. Given the choice, and realizing that they are both a good choice, I think personally, I'd go with the Nikasil.
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
Given unlimited funds I would choose genuine Lotus replacements. However, by using the USChrome process, I was able to put that other money to better use!
When you contact USChrome, speak to the production manager named Klause(sp?). He is very knowledgeable and will probably remember me.
USChrome doesn't have a jig to hold the 910 liner, and their honing process is well beyond the capabilities of even the best machine shops.
I ended up shipping them my block to which they mated a custom torque-plate to keep everything in place.
The pistons I bought were off-the-shelf std bore JEs from Delta Motorsports (JH supply house) in Phoenix, AZ. I think they cost $120/hole plus rings.
If you contact JE directly they have the pattern to make virtually any 9xx series piston. Just specify your application, c/r, etc.
When you contact USChrome, speak to the production manager named Klause(sp?). He is very knowledgeable and will probably remember me.
USChrome doesn't have a jig to hold the 910 liner, and their honing process is well beyond the capabilities of even the best machine shops.
I ended up shipping them my block to which they mated a custom torque-plate to keep everything in place.
The pistons I bought were off-the-shelf std bore JEs from Delta Motorsports (JH supply house) in Phoenix, AZ. I think they cost $120/hole plus rings.
If you contact JE directly they have the pattern to make virtually any 9xx series piston. Just specify your application, c/r, etc.
I just looked up US chrome, and they actually have one of their locations about an hour from me. I too am in the midst of doing an engine rebuild and thought about liners.
The advice from JAE (and my own research) was that at the cost of almost $1000.00 US it wasn't worth swapping to the later liners (I'm rebuilding a carbureted turbo engine.)
My intention is to eventually set the car to run more than the stock boost (I'm thinking 12-14PSI with an intercooler.) The above messages have me worried that if I'm going to replace components, I may want to re-think using the stock cast liners.
What is the cost of something like doing the 3rd party coatings?
The advice from JAE (and my own research) was that at the cost of almost $1000.00 US it wasn't worth swapping to the later liners (I'm rebuilding a carbureted turbo engine.)
My intention is to eventually set the car to run more than the stock boost (I'm thinking 12-14PSI with an intercooler.) The above messages have me worried that if I'm going to replace components, I may want to re-think using the stock cast liners.
What is the cost of something like doing the 3rd party coatings?
driestone said:
I just looked up US chrome, and they actually have one of their locations about an hour from me. I too am in the midst of doing an engine rebuild and thought about liners.
The advice from JAE (and my own research) was that at the cost of almost $1000.00 US it wasn't worth swapping to the later liners (I'm rebuilding a carbureted turbo engine.)
My intention is to eventually set the car to run more than the stock boost (I'm thinking 12-14PSI with an intercooler.) The above messages have me worried that if I'm going to replace components, I may want to re-think using the stock cast liners.
What is the cost of something like doing the 3rd party coatings?
Hi,
I think the places listed above for plating cast iron liners in Nikasil is somwhere around $100/liner avg. another consideration, especially with increased boost, might be thermal-ceramic coating of the pistons, which I did when I installed tghe JE pistons in my car. I also elected to have the skirts coated with a wettable dry lubricant - molybdnum disulfide. I had these done by: Swain Technology - www.swaintech.com/coatings.html
They did a great job and after 10k mi. on the new engine, I was able to look into each cylinder using an old laproscope my bro. in law (surgeon) had lying around and the piston domes look like new. I also had my machinist say the same thing about a fully blown nitro-funnycar engine he has, says after a season, evetything looked like new.
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE
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