Esprit exterior dimensions - the magic ratio?

[chasevdr]

I started thinking how timeless the Esprit is and came to the idea it had something to do with the exterior dimesions of the car. I collected them with the dimensions of a dozen or so "great" cars. I threw in 3 more just for good measure to provide a frame of reference: BMW M3, Mercedes S55 and Ford Taurus.

MODEL…………….… Lgth Wdth Hght
Lotus Esprit………. 172 74.1 45.3
Carrera GT………... 181.6 75.6 45.9
Ferrari Enzo…….... 185.1 80.1 45.2
Ferrari F40……..…. 174.4 78 44.5
Ferrari Modena.... 176.3 75.7 47.8
Ford GT………....... 182.8 76.9 44.3
Lamborgh Gallardo 169.3 74.8 45.9
Lamborghini Murc. 180.3 80.5 44.7
Mclaren F1………… 168.8 71.6 44.9
Mercedes SLR…... 183.3 75.1 49.6
Pagani Zonda……. 171.1 76.1 45.3
Porsche 959…..…. 168.9 72.4 50.4
Ford Taurus…..….. 197.6 73 56.1
BMW M3….………... 176.9 70.1 54
Mercedes S55..…. 203.1 73 57.2

I then calculated the ratios of their exterior dimensions:

MODEL…………….… L/W L/H W/H
Lotus Esprit………. 2.32 3.80 1.64
Carrera GT………... 2.40 3.96 1.65
Ferrari Enzo…….... 2.31 4.10 1.77
Ferrari F40……..…. 2.24 3.92 1.75
Ferrari Modena.... 2.33 3.69 1.58
Ford GT………....... 2.38 4.13 1.74
Lamborgh Gallardo 2.26 3.69 1.63
Lamborghini Murc. 2.24 4.03 1.80
Mclaren F1………… 2.36 3.76 1.59
Mercedes SLR…... 2.44 3.70 1.51
Pagani Zonda……. 2.25 3.78 1.68
Porsche 959…..…. 2.33 3.35 1.44
Ford Taurus…..….. 2.71 3.52 1.30
BMW M3….………... 2.52 3.28 1.30
Mercedes S55..…. 2.78 3.55 1.28

I then calculated the difference in that ratio relative to the Lotus Esprit:

MODEL…………….… L/W diff L/H diff W/H diff
Lotus Esprit………. - - -
Carrera GT………... (0.08) (0.16) (0.01)
Ferrari Enzo…….... 0.01 (0.30) (0.14)
Ferrari F40……..…. 0.09 (0.12) (0.12)
Ferrari Modena.... (0.01) 0.11 0.05
Ford GT………....... (0.06) (0.33) (0.10)
Lamborgh Gallardo 0.06 0.11 0.01
Lamborghini Murc. 0.08 (0.24) (0.17)
Mclaren F1………… (0.04) 0.04 0.04
Mercedes SLR…... (0.12) 0.10 0.12
Pagani Zonda……. 0.07 0.02 (0.04)
Porsche 959…..…. (0.01) 0.45 0.20
Ford Taurus…..….. (0.39) 0.27 0.33
BMW M3….………... (0.20) 0.52 0.34
Mercedes S55..…. (0.46) 0.25 0.36

And finally took the absolute value of the sum of those differences and sorted them in ascending order. It turns out the Mclaren F1 is at the top of that list and the three frame of reference cars are at the bottom of the 15 strong list.

MODEL…………….… abs sum (diff)
Lotus Esprit………. 0.00
Mclaren F1………… 0.11
Pagani Zonda……. 0.14
Ferrari Modena.... 0.17
Lamborgh Gallardo 0.17
Carrera GT………... 0.25
Ferrari F40……..…. 0.32
Mercedes SLR…... 0.34
Ferrari Enzo…….... 0.44
Lamborghini Murc. 0.48
Ford GT………....... 0.49
Porsche 959…..…. 0.66
Ford Taurus…..….. 0.99
BMW M3….………... 1.06
Mercedes S55..…. 1.07

So the sanity check seems to be working. Now how about the stuff in the middle? I would argue that the closer the engineers came to ripping off the dimensions of the Stevens styled Esprit, the more popular their cars were. Well, I guess that is not fair. Peter Stevens styled the Mclaren F1 too. All hail to Peter Stevens....

>>> Edited by chasevdr on Sunday 10th October 18:53

>>> Edited by chasevdr on Sunday 10th October 18:55

[adrianmugridge]

Bloody hell....

[PatHeald]

chasevdr said:

All hail to Peter Stevens....

Shouldn't it be All hail to Giugiaro, given that Stevens simply warmed the Esprit up a bit.

Nevertheless, a fascinating bit of work.

Cheers

Pat

[southenddc]

Crikey!

Have you ever thought of getting out more! (jus' kiddin)

[GKP]

My head hurts...

[chasevdr]

All hail Giugiaro then! Whatever the case it would seem some of the greatest cars share startlingly similar dimensions; and the Esprit seems to be the first to use them.

[rlearp]

Of course, you could do the same with many cars on the list. If you normalized everything to the Ferrari then you claim that the closer designers were to the F car the more successful they were....

[PatHeald]

rlearp said:

Of course, you could do the same with many cars on the list. If you normalized everything to the Ferrari then you claim that the closer designers were to the F car the more successful they were....

Fair point, but of the cars listed, with the exception of the Ford GT, which has it's genes in the GT40 of nineteen sixtywhateveritwas, the Esprit was the first built.

What F car with these general dimentions predates the Esprit?

The point here, surely, is that Giugiaro laid down the blueprint for so many supercars that followed.

Cheers

Pat

[rlearp]

Well, without giving it much thought at all the Ferrari 246 Dino pre-dates the Esprit and has some nice dimensions. Of course, the Ford GT40 as you pointed out from 1964/65. And another fantastic one is the Lambo Muira, goregous car, and the Ford/Detomaso Pantera. And, of course the Lamborghini Countach which started development in 1970, production in 1974, and was looking quite nice in the early years without all the tacked on plastic that appeared in the 80s. Ferrari 308s started in 1975 and certainly look the part of supercar, at least to those of us that grew up watching Magnum. Oh, and I can't forget one of my favorites, the Ferrari 512, of which one could certainly make the same argument you've made about the Lotus. Think the first year for the 512 was 1976.

Esprit production began in 1976 (if I remember right) so while it was a fantastic looking car I don't think that it set the absolute mould for future super cars as there were many low, wide, mid-engine exotics before it. But I still think the machine was ground breaking and is still beautiful after all these years.


>> Edited by rlearp on Tuesday 12th October 01:50

[JeffYoung]

One slight correction to Ron's otherwise excellent post:

The Ferrari 512BB was actually a derivative of the 365BB of I believe 1973-76. This car is a Berlinetta Boxer, it just used the Daytona designation as it was the alleged "continuation" of the line, although it went to a mid-engine lay out as a direct result of the Miura's success.

But Ron's point is correct. We love our cars, but they are not the font of all supercardom. Mid-engined supercars started popping up in the mid to late 60s and while the Esprit's look was certianly more angular and different than most, I think calling it a revolutionary design is a bit much.

In fact, I think you can probably make the best case for three cars essentially giving birth to the mid-engined supercar: the DeTomaso Mangusta, the Ford GT40 and the Miura. The all were developed at about the same time (mid 60s) as a direct result, I believe, of the change in the late 50s in early 60s in F1 cars and later USAC cars to rear engined design.

[inno]

Lets not forget the Maserati Bora. Development started circa 1968, prototype was out in 1969. Awesome, sexy car...

[chasevdr]

The Miura is certainly a stunning car particularly from the rear angle. Doing the math on it results in .35 difference from the Lotus. This places it between the Enzo and the Mercedes SLR as its closest modern day counterparts - fitting too, given their absurd levels of power and speed.

[JeffYoung]

Ah, the Bora. A great...concept. These cars are actually pretty reasonably priced, from $35 to $50k but plagued with horrible Citroen hydraulics and devilish handling. Maser didn't really get the balance on the car right with the mid-engine V8. The Merak -- same car with the V6 -- is more balanced and even it is pretty evil to drive I'm told.

Pretty car though and a great highway cruiser.

Which leads me to this thought: all of the "early" mid-engined supercars have reputations as tricky or devlish handlers. The Miura is probably the best of the bunch, but the Mangusta was pretty much doomed by its poor handling and the 365BB was known as a handful too. A local guy has a yellow Miura S that is serviced at a shop I use for race stuff. One of the guys there that I know pretty well says that is the scariest car he has ever driven at speed, and again, it's supposedly much better than the Bora or the 365BB.

SO -- maybe what the Esprit IS is the first well thought out, good handling mid-engined super car. I think you can make a far better case for that, than for it being the progenitor of all mid-engined supercars.

Of course, well thought out ONLY applies to handling as there are many things on my 93 Esprit that are still far from "well thought out"....lol.

[inno]

The Citroen hydraulics get a bad rap. I had a Maserati Khamsin that was completely loaded with the Citroen hydraulics and I rather liked it. It was reliable and easy to work on once you got the hang of it. The brakes worked amazingly well at stopping the 2 ton beast. There was a hydraulic servo/pump at the rear axle that actually tightened the steering as the speed increased. The hydraulics controlled the seat adjustment, brakes, clutch, steering, and believe it or not, the pop-up headlamps. Had a tin tank in the engine compartment that held about 1/2 gallon of LHM fluid. I do think the 2500 psi system was a bit of overkill.
You're right about the Bora handling. I had a friend with a Bora and he had to work hard at keeping the rear in line when he was pushing it.
I am truly impressed with the Lotus handling. It even allows me to push limits I never thought I could attain, even though my driving skills are far from "well thought out". :>

[lotusguy]

HI,

Interesting stuff. But, I bet if we delve deeply enough, we'll find the root of all this in the DaVinci Code... After all, mathematically, Bumble Bees cannot fly either.

Form follows function, not independent of it. It was once thought that many Soviet aircraft, especially their SST and space shuttle were reworked copies of stolen Western designs.

After engineers took a different perspective, they discovered that a certain universality, governed by similar requirements, was inherent in the designs of all the craft both Western and Soviet - they had to be similar.

I suspect we may be dealing with much of the same here. Just one man's opinion mind you, but there it is.
Happy Motoring! ...Jim'85TE

[rlearp]

lotusguy said:

After all, mathematically, Bumble Bees cannot fly either.

Actually, that is an old wives tale - using physics (applied mathematics) they fly quite well (unless, of course, one makes some poor boundary conditions upfront, the reason for the story in the first place).

But, point well taken and I whole heartedly agree. The mid-engine cars do look quite similar and form follows function here. Even bad mid-engine cars look somewhat similar and not so bad - Delorean and Fieros are good examples - and if you normalized the data to say, lowered Fieros, you'd have similar results.

I wonder how the Ferrari crowd would take it if we re-configured the data and told them their 360 was derived, in part, from a GM car? Oopps, I should shut up, our Loti have a lot derived from GM cars.......

[JeffYoung]

Inno, cool car the Khamsin. As the Ghibli replacement, many didn't take to its looks but I like Wedges, especially underappreciated wedges (I race a TR8). How did it drive? The 4.7/4.9 V8 is a good motor eh?

When I was looking for a "cheap" ($30k or so) exotic, I had about five choices: Esprit, 308, Pantera, Ghibli and Bora. Drove all but the Bora, and REALLY liked the Ghibli's motor although it was definitely a GT and not a handler like the Esprit and the 308, and even the Pantera which can be hustled faster than you think.

But what turned me away from the Masers was the cost and complexity of working on them/having them worked on. I think a head gasket set for the Maser was like $300. I even saw someone who priced a rebuild of the hyrdaulics on the Bora and, although yours worked well, if they failed, you better get an equity line on the house.

In any event, tell me more about the Khamsin. A very interesting car.

[rlearp]

Jeff, Pete has a white Esprit SE and used to live right here in Apex until recently. Worked out at the gym I went too, that is how we met and is responsible for me getting this Esprit habit!