V8 Race Ecu - only 350bhp?
Discussion
www.lotusespritworld.com/ETechnical/V8_ECU.html
Kato's just put this info up on LEW, and as we all know he gets his info from various contacts at Lotus Cars so theres' no question of its validity..
Am I the only one who's surprised that the Race Ecu only has 350bhp? I'd be led to believe that it was much more powerful that that from what i'd read on various message boards??
Anyone got one of these ecu's in their car and has dyno figures?
Also, i'd read somewhere that the 2000 model year cars in europe at least had been given the same hi-torque ecu as had been fitted to the euro sport 350 in 99. Seems this isn't true either
.
Anybody have any idea how these myths have arisen?
Kato's just put this info up on LEW, and as we all know he gets his info from various contacts at Lotus Cars so theres' no question of its validity..
Am I the only one who's surprised that the Race Ecu only has 350bhp? I'd be led to believe that it was much more powerful that that from what i'd read on various message boards??
Anyone got one of these ecu's in their car and has dyno figures?
Also, i'd read somewhere that the 2000 model year cars in europe at least had been given the same hi-torque ecu as had been fitted to the euro sport 350 in 99. Seems this isn't true either
. Anybody have any idea how these myths have arisen?
Hi Rob,
Yes I just read thru the link... and generally agree that Kato gets the details right thru trusted sources. There is one missing however, no High-Torque Upgrade ECM.
I've driven a friend's 1999 V8 and his has what I would consider to be the standard ECM for the V8. You can feel the boost buildup but it's mostly from around 4500 rpm and up. The difference between the boost profiles of his 1999 V8 and my 2000 V8 are very distinct, so without a doubt there is a significant change in ECM boost mappings that occured starting with the 2000MY (at least in the US).
I also have part numbers for the high-torque ECMs for the US V8 models.... there are two: one for 1997-1999 MY and one for 2000/2001 MY and I think KFM mentioned a while back that Lotus announced the same high-torque upgrade for 2002/2003 MY cars. Oddly, these are not mentioned on LEW yet we know they exist. Even Dave Simkin told me about the high-torque upgrade available for the US cars.
What I guess is the surprise is the Race ECM only having high boost profiles in the lower gears... in most cases it's been said it increases boost to 1 bar and allows higher horsepower figures in excess of 400HP at the crank. So I guess the correct information could still be a bit elusive here.
Regards, KM
2000 V8
Yes I just read thru the link... and generally agree that Kato gets the details right thru trusted sources. There is one missing however, no High-Torque Upgrade ECM.
I've driven a friend's 1999 V8 and his has what I would consider to be the standard ECM for the V8. You can feel the boost buildup but it's mostly from around 4500 rpm and up. The difference between the boost profiles of his 1999 V8 and my 2000 V8 are very distinct, so without a doubt there is a significant change in ECM boost mappings that occured starting with the 2000MY (at least in the US).
I also have part numbers for the high-torque ECMs for the US V8 models.... there are two: one for 1997-1999 MY and one for 2000/2001 MY and I think KFM mentioned a while back that Lotus announced the same high-torque upgrade for 2002/2003 MY cars. Oddly, these are not mentioned on LEW yet we know they exist. Even Dave Simkin told me about the high-torque upgrade available for the US cars.
What I guess is the surprise is the Race ECM only having high boost profiles in the lower gears... in most cases it's been said it increases boost to 1 bar and allows higher horsepower figures in excess of 400HP at the crank. So I guess the correct information could still be a bit elusive here.
Regards, KM
2000 V8
Hi All,
I also read this on LEW and I personally feel that there are some "slight" mistakes .... ;o)
The Race ECU from Lotus (or the derivates from Johan and P.U.K.) are producing more than 400HP (actually around 440HP at the crank). True is that the rear wheel power RWP of the Race ECU is 350 HP
)
Cheers
Marcus (www.PUKesprit.de)
I also read this on LEW and I personally feel that there are some "slight" mistakes .... ;o)
The Race ECU from Lotus (or the derivates from Johan and P.U.K.) are producing more than 400HP (actually around 440HP at the crank). True is that the rear wheel power RWP of the Race ECU is 350 HP
) Cheers
Marcus (www.PUKesprit.de)
Looking into stuff, it turns out the wastegates on the V8 turbo won't allow anymore then 0.75BAR (about 9PSI) of boost. To change this, one would need to change the turbo wastegate actuator so it won't open until your desired pressure point. You can push ALL the boost you want but with the wategate on the tubo opening when pressure hits 0.75BAR it will produce no more horsepower.
I'm sure someone will call Garrett to get the answer!
Mark
I'm sure someone will call Garrett to get the answer!
Mark
feffman said:
Looking into stuff, it turns out the wastegates on the V8 turbo won't allow anymore then 0.75BAR (about 9PSI) of boost. To change this, one would need to change the turbo wastegate actuator so it won't open until your desired pressure point. You can push ALL the boost you want but with the wategate on the tubo opening when pressure hits 0.75BAR it will produce no more horsepower.
I'm sure someone will call Garrett to get the answer!
Mark
Well, not entirely sure I believe that. BTW, a bar is approximately 14.5 PSI so 0.75 bar would be 10.875 psi. I don't think the wastegates will push the capsules from 1 bar of boost pressure without some help.
I've read the post regarding this on the TE list but I don't think the capsule springs are so weak that the wastegate pressure will open them at 0.75 bar. This would render the ECM boost control ineffective.
Regards, KM
2000 V8
Hi All,
From my experience the wastgate gets pushed open (via exhaust gas pressure) at around 0.9-1.1 bar (= around 14psi)
BTW: If this scenario begins to happen at 0.9 or even lower, your wastegates are misadjusted (=too low) or the springs have gone weak ....
"If you are a very brave man you can test this by just removing the wastgate actuator lines and making one test sprint. You will see that boost rises to around 1 bar and not more ..."
THIS IS NOT an ENCOURAGEMENT TO DO SO !
Cheers
Marcus (www.PUKesprit.de)
From my experience the wastgate gets pushed open (via exhaust gas pressure) at around 0.9-1.1 bar (= around 14psi)
BTW: If this scenario begins to happen at 0.9 or even lower, your wastegates are misadjusted (=too low) or the springs have gone weak ....
"If you are a very brave man you can test this by just removing the wastgate actuator lines and making one test sprint. You will see that boost rises to around 1 bar and not more ..."
THIS IS NOT an ENCOURAGEMENT TO DO SO !
Cheers
Marcus (www.PUKesprit.de)
What is known as 'High Torque' in USA is same as used on the European Sport350. The later USA cars (2002/2003) had this calibration as an update for the final batch of cars built.
This specification was planned for the USA market only. However a few Euro specification vehicles were produced to special order.
Several different part numbers exist for ECUs that appear to be similar as far as the customer is concerned. Updates for USA diagnostics necessitated modifications that had to be incorporated in MY updates. The ECU data for the Engine Performance is not necessarily affected by the MY update even if the Part Number has changed.
In the early V8 days lotus had different ECU variants for USA & Euro
certification. This depended on whether the vehicle / engine specification demanded extra emission requirements such as EGR and Air Pump.
Later USA cars demanded more complex diagnostics to monitor features such as Fuel Tank integrity which checks the fuel tanks for leaks. Euro cars (Engine Build Spec. and ECU specification) were commonised towards the end of production.
Hope this clears up a few queries.
kato
Lotus Esprit World
This specification was planned for the USA market only. However a few Euro specification vehicles were produced to special order.
Several different part numbers exist for ECUs that appear to be similar as far as the customer is concerned. Updates for USA diagnostics necessitated modifications that had to be incorporated in MY updates. The ECU data for the Engine Performance is not necessarily affected by the MY update even if the Part Number has changed.
In the early V8 days lotus had different ECU variants for USA & Euro
certification. This depended on whether the vehicle / engine specification demanded extra emission requirements such as EGR and Air Pump.
Later USA cars demanded more complex diagnostics to monitor features such as Fuel Tank integrity which checks the fuel tanks for leaks. Euro cars (Engine Build Spec. and ECU specification) were commonised towards the end of production.
Hope this clears up a few queries.
kato
Lotus Esprit World
Hello Marcus,
Thanks for the information. I am assuming that this condition was with the actuator lines attached so there would be some assistance in opening the wastegates, correct?
A friend's 1999 V8 had cambelts done recently... upon getting the car back, the left wastegate capsule line was hanging, ie, no pressure feed to either wastegate. Performance was poor as the ECM kept shutting things down before the boost would build up very high. So while he was the brave tester, he was unaware ;-).
With the wastegates adjusted to 0.35 bar, they will start opening with little boost. Increasing the boost will certainly push the actuators quite a bit more than the factory spec. This is why I recommended using a pressure regulator where you can limit how much pressure the wastegate capsules will get regardless of how much boost pressure you spool up. Granted, it will not allow extreme amounts of boost as you pointed out (wastegate springs) but should improve boost performance for those looking to increase boost beyond the stock 0.75 bar to a reasonable limit, ie, no more than 1.0 bar. Also, unless you have added intercoolers and replaced the original cast pistons increasing boost by much over stock is certainly a bad idea.
Regards, KM
2000 V8
Thanks for the information. I am assuming that this condition was with the actuator lines attached so there would be some assistance in opening the wastegates, correct?
A friend's 1999 V8 had cambelts done recently... upon getting the car back, the left wastegate capsule line was hanging, ie, no pressure feed to either wastegate. Performance was poor as the ECM kept shutting things down before the boost would build up very high. So while he was the brave tester, he was unaware ;-).
With the wastegates adjusted to 0.35 bar, they will start opening with little boost. Increasing the boost will certainly push the actuators quite a bit more than the factory spec. This is why I recommended using a pressure regulator where you can limit how much pressure the wastegate capsules will get regardless of how much boost pressure you spool up. Granted, it will not allow extreme amounts of boost as you pointed out (wastegate springs) but should improve boost performance for those looking to increase boost beyond the stock 0.75 bar to a reasonable limit, ie, no more than 1.0 bar. Also, unless you have added intercoolers and replaced the original cast pistons increasing boost by much over stock is certainly a bad idea.
Regards, KM
2000 V8
Hi KM,
What you say is correct if the ECU is not controlling the boost (= solenoid is not bleeding !).
Actually the wastegate solenoid is bleeding away the amount of boost that is reaching the capsules in a controlled way via ECU. Yes, the capsule begins to move with 0.35 bar and will be fully open at around 0.6 bar. But this only refers the partial-pressure that is actually reaching the capsules.
An example:
ECU wants boost 0.75 bar bosst -> Solenoid will bleed away almost all boost that would reach the wastegate-capsules ;o)
Cheers
Marcus
What you say is correct if the ECU is not controlling the boost (= solenoid is not bleeding !).
Actually the wastegate solenoid is bleeding away the amount of boost that is reaching the capsules in a controlled way via ECU. Yes, the capsule begins to move with 0.35 bar and will be fully open at around 0.6 bar. But this only refers the partial-pressure that is actually reaching the capsules.
An example:
ECU wants boost 0.75 bar bosst -> Solenoid will bleed away almost all boost that would reach the wastegate-capsules ;o)
Cheers
Marcus
I have installed Johan's Race ECU (1.1 bar) along with straight pipes and it is a world of difference. I have doubled my boost and last time I checked more boost = more HP.
Besides the theory, there is a huge difference in my car from the past and you can feel the kick of the turbos a lot more than before. I have not found a dyno place so no actual numbers.
On the other hand, I don't think there is a 100+ HP gain. I think 30-40 HP sounds better. I have raced a Viper GTS (with straight pipes) and a 996 Twin Turbo with exhaust (and who knows what else) I could hear the turbos boosting really high in the highway. Both cars could not pull from me and around 130mph I pulled about a full car length on the Viper and two car lengths on the Porsche. So lets do the math...??????
Besides the theory, there is a huge difference in my car from the past and you can feel the kick of the turbos a lot more than before. I have not found a dyno place so no actual numbers.
On the other hand, I don't think there is a 100+ HP gain. I think 30-40 HP sounds better. I have raced a Viper GTS (with straight pipes) and a 996 Twin Turbo with exhaust (and who knows what else) I could hear the turbos boosting really high in the highway. Both cars could not pull from me and around 130mph I pulled about a full car length on the Viper and two car lengths on the Porsche. So lets do the math...??????
Hi Mike,
Only once I dynoed a V8 (stock engine + K&N-filters + Race ECU + Lotus sports exhaust). The result was 350HP at the rear wheels.
Drive train loss is around 15-18% (depends on many factors). If you do a "positive" math 350/(1-0.18)= 427HP
Max boost was below 1 bar, something around 0.9 bar.
Cheers
Marcus (www.PUKesprit.de)
Only once I dynoed a V8 (stock engine + K&N-filters + Race ECU + Lotus sports exhaust). The result was 350HP at the rear wheels.
Drive train loss is around 15-18% (depends on many factors). If you do a "positive" math 350/(1-0.18)= 427HP
Max boost was below 1 bar, something around 0.9 bar.
Cheers
Marcus (www.PUKesprit.de)
I spoke to Mike Haines a while back and he had done a back to back rolling road comparison with the stock V8 ECU and the 'Red Race ECU'. He said there was no difference in bhp between the two, just more torque lower down. This would tie in with LEW's information.
What is Johan's ECU upgrade?
Cheers
Grant
What is Johan's ECU upgrade?
Cheers
Grant
Hi Grant,
Its all about max boost you are actually getting.
The stock ECU will give 0.75 bar vs. the Red ECU will (=wants to) give 0.9-1 bar. If the turbos-wastegates will not hold more than 0.75 bar with the Race ECU installed you will get no more HP, just more torque in low and midrange, because the Red ECU has the lower-gear-boost-restrictions removed.
When your wastegate-springs are strong enough to hold 0.9-1 bar you will get the more power
Cheers
Marcus (www.PUKesprit.de)
Its all about max boost you are actually getting.
The stock ECU will give 0.75 bar vs. the Red ECU will (=wants to) give 0.9-1 bar. If the turbos-wastegates will not hold more than 0.75 bar with the Race ECU installed you will get no more HP, just more torque in low and midrange, because the Red ECU has the lower-gear-boost-restrictions removed.
When your wastegate-springs are strong enough to hold 0.9-1 bar you will get the more power
Cheers
Marcus (www.PUKesprit.de)
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