Sport 350 - any owners tempted to sell?

[CliveM]

Hi All,

I've been half heartedly looking at getting a V8 Esprit and have come to the conclusion that what I really want is a Sport 350.
Does anyone know of a decent car that an owner might be persuaded to part with for less than £30K?
The one at Brambles looks a bit steep to me....
A search on the forum threads shows cars were going for c£25K a couple of years ago??

Cheers
Clive

[squawk7700]

I gather you saw this one on the PH site http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2397754.htm. I believe it is car 000.

[superdave]

The one for nearly £40K is a dreamer and will never get this price.
The 000 one is not a proper S350 and it's history and condition would need to be investigated further.
I once sold a S350 with only 18K a couple of years ago to Mike Columbo for £25K. It was mint out of the box. This is what I consider is the right price for these.
Lately though, Esprit prices seemed to have gone up and there are some chancers and dreamers out there. Good luck to them if they do get top dollar for there Esprit as this is ultimately what we all want as a seller.

David

[Junglehop]

Disagree with you there dave, these things are so rare and hardly come up that the vendors can pretty much charge what they like... its also such a small market that if you do not need a quick sale ping it on at a high price and sit on it.

They are asking alot for that Sport 350 but im sure someone will pay not too far of that. The Sport 350 having possibly the broadest appeal of any of Esprit

[CliveM]

Junglehop said:

Disagree with you there dave, these things are so rare and hardly come up that the vendors can pretty much charge what they like... its also such a small market that if you do not need a quick sale ping it on at a high price and sit on it.

They are asking alot for that Sport 350 but im sure someone will pay not too far of that. The Sport 350 having possibly the broadest appeal of any of Esprit

Fair point - but at some stage if the car is not shifting the owner needs to realise that they need to drop the price if they want a sale. Esprits seem in general to be on the classifieds for ages. Maybe it's for the reasons above (a similar thing happens to NSX autos, but seemingly not the desirable manual cars?), maybe just because the esprit fans find it hard to understand why the casual observer would pass one by.

I've always loved the shape (I think of it as classic rather than dated) but the interior is terrible (which sadly is the main reason for looking for a Sport 350) and they don't have the best reputation for reliability. 350 bhp is not exceptional anymore eith plenty of more modern £10K AMGs for that proportion of buyers who just wanted something cheapish and fast in a straight line.

As I'm looking to buy my viewpoint is obviously biased. I suspect that I'll end up getting a SL55 instead as it'll be a fun weekend car that I can shift quickly and easily in a year or two.

[CliveM]

Junglehop said:

Disagree with you there dave, these things are so rare and hardly come up that the vendors can pretty much charge what they like... its also such a small market that if you do not need a quick sale ping it on at a high price and sit on it.

They are asking alot for that Sport 350 but im sure someone will pay not too far of that. The Sport 350 having possibly the broadest appeal of any of Esprit

PS Don't disagree with your view really - just think that "chancers" don't represent the "real" market price. As with any small volume car, if you are prepared to wait for 18 months there's every chance of finding somone who is happy to pay well over the odds for the particular car they're after.

[Junglehop]

I concur with many of your sentiments.. (this is a most unusual thread with everyone agreeing with one another!)

Your thoughts on performance are interesting though. 350 is still alot of horses. True there are many things out there which are far more mundane which are comprable in bhp but thats not the point. That has never been the point of a Lotus. The Sport 350 will apply itself far better when actually giving it the beans on some sweeping A road.

[CliveM]

I want a car that's got great steering feel, is quick enough to overtake traffic easily and is not too wide.
350bhp with a decent amount of torque suits me fine.

If you look at the pasting that the Evora has got for having "only" 345 bhp (?) though it seems that expectations have well and truly moved on.
Despite being happy with the idea of the engine in the Esprit, I couldn't swallow paying £35K for a n/a Evora. That engine smacked far too much of being deliberately restricted by marketing bods to allow room for a higher power engine later.

[The Pits]

Sport 350 is properly quick because they are light compared to more modern, more powerful cars. I think the s350 is very under-rated and doesn't fetch much of a premium over the regular v8. It should. I had a v8gt and the s350 was in a different league. I was really impressed.

[squawk7700]

12 years on and there are VERY few cars out there than can outperform this car. What I also like about is that it's different. Probably like that BMW of yours, people look at it and often say "What the hell IS that?" And those that do know Esprits know this one really is as rare as hen's teeth.

[BIRMA]

CliveM said:

Fair point - but at some stage if the car is not shifting the owner needs to realise that they need to drop the price if they want a sale. Esprits seem in general to be on the classifieds for ages. Maybe it's for the reasons above (a similar thing happens to NSX autos, but seemingly not the desirable manual cars?), maybe just because the esprit fans find it hard to understand why the casual observer would pass one by.

I've always loved the shape (I think of it as classic rather than dated) but the interior is terrible (which sadly is the main reason for looking for a Sport 350) and they don't have the best reputation for reliability. 350 bhp is not exceptional anymore eith plenty of more modern £10K AMGs for that proportion of buyers who just wanted something cheapish and fast in a straight line.

As I'm looking to buy my viewpoint is obviously biased. I suspect that I'll end up getting a SL55 instead as it'll be a fun weekend car that I can shift quickly and easily in a year or two.

Interesting you should mention the SL55 because I so nearly bought one (watch out for leaking struts, very expensive) but the AMG version as it has so much more oomph than the standard SL I then changed my mind and preferred the 911 Turbo but due to a bunch of idiots in a car showroom North of Basingstoke landed up with an Esprit. After driving many cars mostly with traction control etc I got into the Esprit and when I put my foot down I immediately thought Jesus this things outrageous. If you have not done so yet try one of the later 2001-3 Esprits after driving an SL and I'm sure apart from the fact the SL has a better quality interior you'll be impressed. The 350 Sport is a very nice car but there's more chance of getting a very late Esprit.

[peter450]

CliveM said:

I want a car that's got great steering feel, is quick enough to overtake traffic easily and is not too wide.
350bhp with a decent amount of torque suits me fine.

If you look at the pasting that the Evora has got for having "only" 345 bhp (?) though it seems that expectations have well and truly moved on.
Despite being happy with the idea of the engine in the Esprit, I couldn't swallow paying £35K for a n/a Evora. That engine smacked far too much of being deliberately restricted by marketing bods to allow room for a higher power engine later.

The N/A engine in the evora is not restricted at all, the toyota version only produced around 240/50 hp, Lotus got it up to 280, i'm sure they would have liked to add more, but emmissions economy probably put the brakes on there

The S/C version was never a secret, and again the output is as good as lotus could probably get

With the benefit of hindsight the real shame with the Evora is the 2 + 2, the car to my mind looks great, but rear seats are a non event and it could have looked even better as a pure 2 seater, and the engine could have sat lower down, which meant lotus might have been able to use the taller direct injection version of 3.5 which is quite a bit more powerful in toyota tune, than the non DI version, so reckocn lotus could have got close to S/C power with the N/A and near 400hp with the S/C, but i guess at the time the choices were being made, these things might not have been known

[CliveM]

Excuse my ignorance about engines but the E36 M3 was getting 320ish (?) bhp from a 3.2 litre engine way back in 1995. After 15 years is the Camry engine a real step on from that?
Is it really that much smaller or lighter?

[CliveM]

BIRMA said:

If you have not done so yet try one of the later 2001-3 Esprits after driving an SL and I'm sure apart from the fact the SL has a better quality interior you'll be impressed. The 350 Sport is a very nice car but there's more chance of getting a very late Esprit.

I haven't driven either yet. Just from photos I've come to two conclusions:
1) I couldn't live with an early Esprit interior. I love classic cars and hate gadgets and clutter. However that interior is not for me.
2) The later interior is much better but still a bit drab. It's one of the reasons I like the blue alcantara seats in the Sport 350, they liven the place up a bit.

When you combine the lower depreciation of a limited edition model (fingers crossed) with the fact (?) that there's only a small premium for a Sport 350 (if you can find one) it seems sensible to me to wait until I find one. Would almost be tempted to get a late V8 while I'm looking though.....

[Oilchange]

Be mindful that Lotus held the record for the most bhp/litre for a production 4 cyl for quite a while with the Esprit, something like 126 bhp/L. That was years and years ago!
Now with new engines there ever more stricter emissions rules and regs coming in year on year that manufacturers have to comply with. They build an engine to be sold in all the countries they can and it has to pass each ones emissions laws. Its very hard to do this. Lotus did well to get more hp from this engine considering all the tree hugging bks they have to comply with.

Also, if memory serves, America had such tough restrictions in the seventies that they had cars coming out of factories with 5 and 6 litre V8s that only produced 150 or so hp. Lots of lazy torque but next to no hp. Totally strangled they were.

I stand to be corrected on this of course...

CliveM said:

Excuse my ignorance about engines but the E36 M3 was getting 320ish (?) bhp from a 3.2 litre engine way back in 1995. After 15 years is the Camry engine a real step on from that?
Is it really that much smaller or lighter?

Edited by Oilchange on Tuesday 30th August 15:57

[BIRMA]

CliveM said:

BIRMA said:

If you have not done so yet try one of the later 2001-3 Esprits after driving an SL and I'm sure apart from the fact the SL has a better quality interior you'll be impressed. The 350 Sport is a very nice car but there's more chance of getting a very late Esprit.

I haven't driven either yet. Just from photos I've come to two conclusions:
1) I couldn't live with an early Esprit interior. I love classic cars and hate gadgets and clutter. However that interior is not for me.
2) The later interior is much better but still a bit drab. It's one of the reasons I like the blue alcantara seats in the Sport 350, they liven the place up a bit.

When you combine the lower depreciation of a limited edition model (fingers crossed) with the fact (?) that there's only a small premium for a Sport 350 (if you can find one) it seems sensible to me to wait until I find one. Would almost be tempted to get a late V8 while I'm looking though.....

I think you have the right idea.
There are a number of owner groups/forums around such as LEW and Club Lotus it's worth joining and finding out a bit more from people who run these cars on a day to day basis. Plus at the meetings there is generally an owner would be happy to take you for a spin.

[peter450]

Oilchange said:

Be mindful that Lotus held the record for the most bhp/litre for a production 4 cyl for quite a while with the Esprit, something like 126 bhp/L. That was years and years ago!

The Lotus turbo had a very high specific output and very strong performance for the time, but the engine was also notably inferior, to that fitted in the 308/328/348 or those in rival Porsches despite the higher specific output/performance, which just goes to show good stats do not a good engine make

It's all about noise and character and power delivery, and having a decent BHP and torque spread, how you get there, N/A, Turbo etc is not really important, it's how it all sounds and feels, and comes together, having the most HP or best specific output is of little consolation if the engine does not match the charisma and drama of rivals, and lets face it the engine is 50% of the reason why you buy one of these cars in the first place

Having said that, i've no doubt Esprits would be a lot more money if they had a v8, straight 6, that was good as those in contemporary ferrari's 911's so there is a silver lining

Edited by peter450 on Tuesday 30th August 21:09

[Oilchange]

I see what you're saying, after all the Lotus was 'simply' a 4 pot compared to Ferraris V8s etc but he mentioned getting HP from the engine which Lotus are pretty good at.
Also, the 4 cylinder engine was brought on board due to the Oil crisis and ultimatley kept Lotus afloat, they were originally developing a modular V8.

And to say the engine was 'notably inferior' is rubbish imo. Ferrari haven't made a 4 cylinder for a while to my knowledge so what are we comparing it to? Porsches van engine? Well the 910 was the last iteration of what was originally a Bedford lump. Bought the patent, re engineered it etc. Got 300 bhp in the S300 from it, raced it, won championships with it. IMO it's a great engine (the one in my car is).
There is no drama/occasion about the Porsche engine in any shape or form in my mind and I've never heard one on the road that sounded as good as a Lotus lump. Not to say it wasn't a good motor, of course.
My Esprit S4 sounds bloody terrific on full chat.

Edited by Oilchange on Wednesday 31st August 03:59

[Pat H]

Oilchange said:

And to say the engine was 'notably inferior' is rubbish imo. Ferrari haven't made a 4 cylinder for a while to my knowledge so what are we comparing it to? Porsches van engine?

I guess that he is comparing the engine in the four pot Esprit to any of the Esprit's contemporary rivals, ie the F308/328 and the Porsche 911. It is a pretty fair thing to do.

The Esprit has a very high output for its size, and it does sound pretty snarly when being hammered, but it really is one of the car's weak points.

I don't think much of the Ferrari V8. It is a bit of a gutless wonder and you would never know it was a V8 unless you were thrashing it.

But it has a better, more linear spread of power than a four pot Esprit and is correspondingly nicer to drive.

Your profile suggests that you have a four pot Esprit and a V6 Alfa.

Me too.

Can you honestly say that the Lotus engine is even half as pleasant to use as that wonderful V6?

The Alfa is a magnificent engine. Smooth, tractable, revvy, full of character and the best noise this side of a RR Merlin.

Can you imagine how good an Esprit would be with such an engine?

I love my Esprit. It is a splendid old thing. But it is the steering, handling and the style that define it, not that snorty engine.

[AllNines]

Oilchange said:

Well the 910 was the last iteration of what was originally a Bedford lump. Bought the patent, re engineered it etc.

Ah, that old chestnut again. I think you'll find that the 900 series was entirely a Lotus design. Early test engines used Vauxhall blocks to speed up the development of the cylinder head, that's all.