Lance Armstrong- Saint Or Sinner?

[neenaw]

I've been reading a few articles about the Tour De France and came across this thread on the cyclingnews.com forum:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=8397

There seems to be a huge number of people who are convinced that Lance Armstrong has been involved in doping throughout his career and that his entering Le Tour is a terrible thing for the sport etc.

I don't really know a great deal about cycling but was wondering why, if he's guilty of doping, has Armstrong never been caught?
Also why, if he's never been found guilty of doping, do so many people speak about it as if he's guilty and that's the end of that?

[ewenm]

It's the same reason athletics forums are full of threads insisting that Ethopians and Kenyans are doping - lots of inadequate keyboard warriors hiding behind anonymity normally.

Doping is a difficult one to police but, in cycling at least, the Blood Passport scheme seems to be very sensible. The sophisticated chemists will always be a step or two ahead of WADA (and the like) but the battle is always worth fighting.

For Armstrong specifically, I don't see what he would have to gain by coming back to Le Tour while doping now - the risks of being caught and subsequent reputation destruction would surely outweigh the reward of racing. Coming back clean however presents a much better risk/reward ratio.

I'm of the opinion that you need to trust the anti-doping agencies to do their job and if someone hasn't been caught then they are clean. It's the only way that I can stay in my sport (athletics) as any other viewpoint would mean I may as well give up now (or start doping myself).

[yellowbentines]

Lance Armstrong was a guy who had suffered terrible illness then came back to do the unthinkable and achieved unbelieveable feats - surely on that basis they'd have drug tested him beyond belief as he was performing like somebody on drugs!

There has been so many doping scandals in cycling that people are now always going to question anyone that performs amazingly well, the automatic assumption is that they're getting chemical assistance to reach those high peaks, whether they're clean or not - a great shame IMO for those out there who've won and are winning on their own effort.

[goldblum]

Incredible competitor.

To come through such serious illness,regain fitness both physical and mental is astonishing.

Drugs don't help you THAT much.

[308mate]

Most tested Athlete ever, I understand.

It can be proven though than he is lung capacity is larger than most and he produces less lactic acid than most also. Its fairly well written about in various spots.

[ewenm]

The other thing that I think lots of armchair pundits/keyboard warriors forget is that none of Le Tour riders are average human beings. They are all at the extreme end of the physiological distribution curves. So the question of "how can Armstrong recover from cancer and get that fit?" is not equivalent to saying "how can anyone recover from cancer and get that fit?" as pro-cyclists (pro-sportspeople in general) are a physiologically unusual bunch.

Edited by ewenm on Thursday 1st July 13:42

[anonymous-user]

to echo ewens comments, miguel indurain had a resting heart beat sub 30bpm at one stage of his career so its clear that these guys are a bit freaky in terms of general fitness!

re armstrong, its really the french who lead these propaganda stories as they refuse to accept that he has turned up and beaten them on 7 occasions... he is one of the most tested athletes ever and has had samples he gave years ago retested using technology and methods that were unavailable at the time. i do feel sorry for the guy, a lesser man would have given up but he knows that would only fuel the rumours...

the blood passport profile has already caught a few people out this year and the UCI are keen to get the sport back on track and widen the gap between drugs and pro-cycling.

[rhinochopig]

My BIL (ex-sponsored rider) is convinced that the majority are doping; based on the massive variability in the athletes performance. That said, personally I disagree, I don't believe that Lance does/did as he has to be the most tested athlete on the planet.

You do get freaks of nature in any sport and I just thing that his pathological obsession with preparedness - way in excess of other pro riders - and his "lucky" genetic make-up combine to make him what he is.

[neenaw]

goldblum said:

Incredible competitor.

To come through such serious illness,regain fitness both physical and mental is astonishing.

Drugs don't help you THAT much.

That's always been my thinking on the subject.

I've been very curious about the whole Armstrong/Doping thing since reading his autobiography and after reading a few things about the TDF it's just started me off thinking about it again.

Out of interest, just how much of a boost could a top level cyclist like Armstrong or Contador achieve with blood doping and the other tricks that they're allegedly using? Are we talking tiny 1-2% improvements or more?

[ewenm]

neenaw said:

goldblum said:

Incredible competitor.

To come through such serious illness,regain fitness both physical and mental is astonishing.

Drugs don't help you THAT much.

That's always been my thinking on the subject.

I've been very curious about the whole Armstrong/Doping thing since reading his autobiography and after reading a few things about the TDF it's just started me off thinking about it again.

Out of interest, just how much of a boost could a top level cyclist like Armstrong or Contador achieve with blood doping and the other tricks that they're allegedly using? Are we talking tiny 1-2% improvements or more?

Don't know but 1% isn't a tiny improvement. Consider that Le Tour is ~3000 miles and a 1% improvement quickly becomes significant.

[goldblum]

ewenm said:

neenaw said:

goldblum said:

Incredible competitor.

To come through such serious illness,regain fitness both physical and mental is astonishing.

Drugs don't help you THAT much.

That's always been my thinking on the subject.

I've been very curious about the whole Armstrong/Doping thing since reading his autobiography and after reading a few things about the TDF it's just started me off thinking about it again.

Out of interest, just how much of a boost could a top level cyclist like Armstrong or Contador achieve with blood doping and the other tricks that they're allegedly using? Are we talking tiny 1-2% improvements or more?

Don't know but 1% isn't a tiny improvement. Consider that Le Tour is ~3000 miles and a 1% improvement quickly becomes significant.

It's 1%

Over 1 Tour.

How many did he win?

On some/many of those Tours he was tested and he still won - drug free.Is this correct?

[rhinochopig]

goldblum said:

ewenm said:

neenaw said:

goldblum said:

Incredible competitor.

To come through such serious illness,regain fitness both physical and mental is astonishing.

Drugs don't help you THAT much.

That's always been my thinking on the subject.

I've been very curious about the whole Armstrong/Doping thing since reading his autobiography and after reading a few things about the TDF it's just started me off thinking about it again.

Out of interest, just how much of a boost could a top level cyclist like Armstrong or Contador achieve with blood doping and the other tricks that they're allegedly using? Are we talking tiny 1-2% improvements or more?

Don't know but 1% isn't a tiny improvement. Consider that Le Tour is ~3000 miles and a 1% improvement quickly becomes significant.

It's 1%

Over 1 Tour.

How many did he win?

On some/many of those Tours he was tested and he still won - drug free.Is this correct?

Testing only works if the person has taken the drug you are testing for. The wealthier teams can afford the very best doctors and drugs. It is possible, although I don't think he does.

[ewenm]

goldblum said:

ewenm said:

neenaw said:

goldblum said:

Incredible competitor.

To come through such serious illness,regain fitness both physical and mental is astonishing.

Drugs don't help you THAT much.

That's always been my thinking on the subject.

I've been very curious about the whole Armstrong/Doping thing since reading his autobiography and after reading a few things about the TDF it's just started me off thinking about it again.

Out of interest, just how much of a boost could a top level cyclist like Armstrong or Contador achieve with blood doping and the other tricks that they're allegedly using? Are we talking tiny 1-2% improvements or more?

Don't know but 1% isn't a tiny improvement. Consider that Le Tour is ~3000 miles and a 1% improvement quickly becomes significant.

It's 1%

Over 1 Tour.

How many did he win?

On some/many of those Tours he was tested and he still won - drug free.Is this correct?

He's won 7 and hasn't failed a drugs test as far as I'm aware (can't be arsed to Google). Almost certainly the most tested athlete in the world too.

As said above, you can only catch users of the drugs you test for although there are some arbitrary tests applied to cyclists that test for the effects (blood constituents and ratios) rather than the products of the drugs.

Unfortunately it is impossible to guarantee someone is clean but that's true of everything - how do you prove a negative? I think he's clean.

My 1% comment was just pointing out that races are won by far less than that so calling 1% "tiny" isn't accurate.

[Soovy]

It's jealousy. The man is a genetic freak, who is physically perfect for the sport.

Jealousy, nothing more.

[Fittster]

At the top level of most sports the difference between success and failure are small. Armstrong was able to dominate other athletes in his field even if they were doped up to the eye balls.

He's either a genetic superman or a better cheat than his rivals.

I know which is more likely.

[goldblum]

You mean a genetic freak like Usain Bolt?

Or does this disprove your theorem?

ie winner by massive margin = either drugs cheat or freak.

What were the time margins that L.A. won by?

Is there no way they could be beaten? And if they were ever exceeded

that person would then be a freak or cheat,surely?

Is Armstrong in it this year?

[RLK500]

Saint....

Given that he has being riding a long time and is probably the most tested athelete on the planet, I am sure he would have been caught by now. Alternatively, someone would have grassed on him.

As said before the French are still smarting from the Festinia/Virenque escapade and don't like Armstrong. So they will dig for all they are worth to try and besmirch his success.

I strongly suspect that when the going gets tough, he can tough it out. Having gone through numerous courses of Chemo. a cat 1 climb at the end of a 100 mile stage is probably a breeze for someone with his mental fortitude.

Supreme athelete.

[Fittster]

goldblum said:

You mean a genetic freak like Usain Bolt?

You want to look at Olympic sprinters to look at drugs use in sport???

People said Carl Lewis was freak

Then there are: Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Justin Gatlin, Tim Montgomery and Kelli White.

Maybe Maurice Greene was clean, he never failed a test (and I'm sure the drugs he was caught buying were for someone else).

[goldblum]

Do you think Usain Bolt is a cheat?

[Fittster]

goldblum said:

Do you think Usain Bolt is a cheat?

Innocent until proven guilty.

I don't have heroes, they let you down. Saints frequently have feet of clay no matter how fast they run or cycle.