Fred....Legend or Underachiever?
Discussion
Let the debates begin.
As far as Im concerned he's a Lancashire lad, he learnt his cricket on the same grounds round Lancs that I did at the same as I did.
Far as Im concerned that makes him a complete and utter legend.
Oh and he's also taken apart the greatest batsmen of his generation
I dont care what the stats say!
As far as Im concerned he's a Lancashire lad, he learnt his cricket on the same grounds round Lancs that I did at the same as I did.
Far as Im concerned that makes him a complete and utter legend.
Oh and he's also taken apart the greatest batsmen of his generation
I dont care what the stats say!Overachiever.
If you have ever played a high level of cricket, it is bloody difficult.
Sustained bowling at anything over 88-90 mph is not as easy as we make it look. I say we, but those days are now gone - and I never got to perform at the stratosphric heights of these players.
Anybody who can stay fit and take wickets at the highest level - hats off.
Batting is the same. It is a very competitive world out there - even more so back in Australia. Only 6 first class sides - so if you're not in the best 70-80 you don't get a look in.
All in, considering his bowling action and off field discipline, overachiever.
If you have ever played a high level of cricket, it is bloody difficult.
Sustained bowling at anything over 88-90 mph is not as easy as we make it look. I say we, but those days are now gone - and I never got to perform at the stratosphric heights of these players.
Anybody who can stay fit and take wickets at the highest level - hats off.
Batting is the same. It is a very competitive world out there - even more so back in Australia. Only 6 first class sides - so if you're not in the best 70-80 you don't get a look in.
All in, considering his bowling action and off field discipline, overachiever.
Wildsea said:
Legend as a bowler. Under acheiver with the bat.
Fantastic to watch, utterly breathtaking when he plays his shots and is in touch. Just annoys me when he gets out cheaply.
Batting at that level - there is nowhere to hide.Fantastic to watch, utterly breathtaking when he plays his shots and is in touch. Just annoys me when he gets out cheaply.
The slightest issues with temperament or technique is found out.
No matter how 'pie chucker' some of these bowlers look on the tv - they are all pretty handy.
johnfm said:
Wildsea said:
Legend as a bowler. Under acheiver with the bat.
Fantastic to watch, utterly breathtaking when he plays his shots and is in touch. Just annoys me when he gets out cheaply.
Batting at that level - there is nowhere to hide.Fantastic to watch, utterly breathtaking when he plays his shots and is in touch. Just annoys me when he gets out cheaply.
The slightest issues with temperament or technique is found out.
No matter how 'pie chucker' some of these bowlers look on the tv - they are all pretty handy.
OH well.Legend.
I think he's a victim of the times and has simply been playing too much cricket as an all rounder. People like Botham played a fraction of the test/one day/twenty20 games Freddie has. Much of Freddies career he has been injured or playing with injuries.
I bet his worth as a player is not just measured with the ball and bat but also as a morale booster. Hopefully with the retirement from test cricket, we'll see him play on in shorter forms of the game.
I think he's a victim of the times and has simply been playing too much cricket as an all rounder. People like Botham played a fraction of the test/one day/twenty20 games Freddie has. Much of Freddies career he has been injured or playing with injuries.
I bet his worth as a player is not just measured with the ball and bat but also as a morale booster. Hopefully with the retirement from test cricket, we'll see him play on in shorter forms of the game.
Edited by el stovey on Tuesday 21st July 07:14
el stovey said:
Legend.
I think he's a victim of the times and has simply been playing too much cricket as an all rounder. People like Botham played a fraction of the test/one day/twenty20 games Freddie has.
FlintoffI think he's a victim of the times and has simply been playing too much cricket as an all rounder. People like Botham played a fraction of the test/one day/twenty20 games Freddie has.
| Tests | ODIs | FC | LA | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Matches | 77 | 141 | 181 | 282 |
Botham
| Tests | ODIs | FC | LA | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Matches | 102 | 116 | 402 | 470 |
Fred is a great but can't be compared to Botham.
"In Test cricket, his batting and bowling averages were slightly - but significantly - inferior to those of Botham. Flintoff’s batting average (31.69) is two runs lower than Botham’s (33.54), and there is a greater discrepancy in their bowling averages, with Flintoff taking his 219 Test wickets at 32.51 compared with Botham's 383 at 28.40.
In Test cricket, his batting and bowling averages were slightly - but significantly - inferior to those of Botham. Flintoff’s batting average (31.69) is two runs lower than Botham’s (33.54), and there is a greater discrepancy in their bowling averages, with Flintoff taking his 219 Test wickets at 32.51 compared with Botham's 383 at 28.40."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/cricket/art...
Agree with the general view that Botham was a better player, overall. But what Flintoff shares with Botham is the ability to galvanize the rest of the team. Either by words or deeds. Who else in the England side, at the moment, really excites non cricket fans? That's the connection. They both make you care about what happening. Which as an England fan can be a real bugger considering how they play sometimes. So in short, legend, but to be absolutely fair has a degree of underachievement. But in the great scheme of things I'm not fit to tie his bootlaces
Edited by DWP on Tuesday 21st July 12:17
Different players, different generations, That said I don't see anybody saying freddie was a better player than Beefy.
However, Botham was an expert at destroying the tailenders, freddy has not taken as many wickets, but has taken vital ones, broken key partnerships and generally provided that inspirational moment for England.
Plus for an all rounder his stats are pretty decent. Also he is a drinking legend, good form in my book.
el stovey said:
People like Botham played a fraction of the test/one day/twenty20 games Freddie has
I don't think that's right. There was a discussion about this on Sky during the test match and they concluded that over a 4-5 year period Botham spent far more days actually playing than Freddie has.You have to remember that before central contracts were invented, England cricketers played a lot more games for their counties than they do now. I was staggered to hear how infrequently Pietersen has played for Hampshire recently.
As mentioned earlier, Beefy & Freddie both have the ability to (i) turn a game on their own (ii) inspire great performances from their team-mates.
Edited by ITMonkey on Tuesday 21st July 22:37
DJC said:
So basically what we are saying is that the difference between Beefy and Fred was...having Brian Close as your father in law.
Knowing you had Closey as your FiL must have been worth at least 2 extra runs to your batting average and losing 4 from your bowling!
Brian Close was not Bothams father in law. He introduced Beefy to kath but is not his FiL.Knowing you had Closey as your FiL must have been worth at least 2 extra runs to your batting average and losing 4 from your bowling!
Botham - some questionnable behaviour off the pitch but legend on it. England through and through. Brilliant for the game and getting youngsters to want to play (he was my hero when young)
Flintoff - some questionnable behaviour off the pitch but legend on it. England through and through
Brilliant for the game and getting youngsters to want to play
Pieterson - amazingly talented crickter. In it for himself.
Stats and history will suggest that Botham was better but like any sport, it's difficult to compare different eras of sportsmen. However, both have been great for the game and stunning performers for their country.
Botham comes tops for me but that doesn't diminish Freddie's achievements (or, more to the point, the timing of them).
Flintoff - some questionnable behaviour off the pitch but legend on it. England through and through
Brilliant for the game and getting youngsters to want to play
Pieterson - amazingly talented crickter. In it for himself.
Stats and history will suggest that Botham was better but like any sport, it's difficult to compare different eras of sportsmen. However, both have been great for the game and stunning performers for their country.
Botham comes tops for me but that doesn't diminish Freddie's achievements (or, more to the point, the timing of them).
unrepentant said:
DJC said:
So basically what we are saying is that the difference between Beefy and Fred was...having Brian Close as your father in law.
Knowing you had Closey as your FiL must have been worth at least 2 extra runs to your batting average and losing 4 from your bowling!
Brian Close was not Bothams father in law. He introduced Beefy to kath but is not his FiL.Knowing you had Closey as your FiL must have been worth at least 2 extra runs to your batting average and losing 4 from your bowling!
I stand corrected, ta the info.
DJC said:
unrepentant said:
DJC said:
So basically what we are saying is that the difference between Beefy and Fred was...having Brian Close as your father in law.
Knowing you had Closey as your FiL must have been worth at least 2 extra runs to your batting average and losing 4 from your bowling!
Brian Close was not Bothams father in law. He introduced Beefy to kath but is not his FiL.Knowing you had Closey as your FiL must have been worth at least 2 extra runs to your batting average and losing 4 from your bowling!
I stand corrected, ta the info.
Very few ENglish cricketers have had that ability to impose themselves on a match.
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