British and Irish Lions tour of South Africa 2009

[TheGreatSoprendo]

So, now that the 6N has reached its thrilling climax, attention turns towards the Lions tour this summer. I was surprised to see on Scrum V last week that Brynmor Williams thinks that there will only be 7 Welshman on tour. Similarly, Pinky and Perky, on the 6N thread thinks there will only be 3 Englishman. Given that they'll probably take a squad of 35/36, my opinion is they're both wrong, but who do people think will be on tour and in the test team? Here's my first stab, to get the debate going:

Props: Jenkins, Sheridan, Murray, Jones, Vickery
Hooker. Flannery, Best, Ford
Locks: O'Connell (C), Wyn-Jones, Hines, O'Callaghan
Backrow: Ferris, Heaslip, Wallace, Jones, Williams, Croft
SH: Peel, Phillips, Ellis
OH: Jones, Flood, O'Gara
Centres: Henson, O'Driscoll, Flutey, Shanklin, D'Arcy
Back 3: Byrne, Kearney, Williams, Bowe, Sackey, Armitage

12 Irish
12 Welsh
8 English
3 Scottish

Starting test team in bold

[hornetrider]

Agree in the main, with a few exeptions. I won't be commenting on the front three cos I haven't a clue, except that Gethin is a shoe in.

I think O'Callaghan played himself off the plane yesterday, he had an absolute shocker. I think Gough is the better player, although not in the lineout. But there are other lineout options in that squad. POC was outstanding yesterday, quite how he didn't get MOTM I will never know, as he was single handedly responsible for destroying our lineout, and hence posession.

10. Agree with SJ, probably Flood but Rog? I can't see him making the test team, he's just too flimsy, physically and mentally. I'd sooner have Hook. If we do take Rog he's destined to play in the midweek games only barring injury - if that is really the case, what's the point in bringing him?

Oh, and Paul Sackey is no more a Lion than I am.

[TheGreatSoprendo]

hornetrider said:

Agree in the main, with a few exeptions. I won't be commenting on the front three cos I haven't a clue, except that Gethin is a shoe in.

I think O'Callaghan played himself off the plane yesterday, he had an absolute shocker. I think Gough is the better player, although not in the lineout. But there are other lineout options in that squad. POC was outstanding yesterday, quite how he didn't get MOTM I will never know, as he was single handedly responsible for destroying our lineout, and hence posession.

10. Agree with SJ, probably Flood but Rog? I can't see him making the test team, he's just too flimsy, physically and mentally. I'd sooner have Hook. If we do take Rog he's destined to play in the midweek games only barring injury - if that is really the case, what's the point in bringing him?

Oh, and Paul Sackey is no more a Lion than I am.

I share your reservations about ROG and if he makes the test team, we're screwed. But you can bet your bks he'll be on the tour, hopefully, as you say, as a dirt tracker only.

As for Sackey, he's not an outstanding player, but he's solid and a good finisher. I'd be just as happy to see Thom Evans taking his place, though.

[merseyboy]

TheGreatSoprendo said:

So, now that the 6N has reached its thrilling climax, attention turns towards the Lions tour this summer. I was surprised to see on Scrum V last week that Brynmor Williams thinks that there will only be 7 Welshman on tour. Similarly, Pinky and Perky, on the 6N thread thinks there will only be 3 Englishman. Given that they'll probably take a squad of 35/36, my opinion is they're both wrong, but who do people think will be on tour and in the test team? Here's my first stab, to get the debate going:

Props: Jenkins, Sheridan, Murray, Jones, Vickery
Hooker. Flannery, Best, Ford
Locks: O'Connell (C), Wyn-Jones, Hines, O'Callaghan
Backrow: Ferris, Heaslip, Wallace, Jones, Williams, Croft
SH: Peel, Phillips, Ellis
OH: Jones, Flood, O'Gara
Centres: Henson, O'Driscoll, Flutey, Shanklin, D'Arcy
Back 3: Byrne, Kearney, Williams, Bowe, Sackey, Armitage

12 Irish
12 Welsh
8 English
3 Scottish

Starting test team in bold

I'm always surprised when people start talking about Lions teams and simply selecting the players who they think have played the best in the previous 6 nations. Doesn't work like that. You need to take into account who you are playing and where you are playing them and, the most important aspect, who can compliment who. Lions don't have long together so you have to find those players who will form partnerships.

I'm astonished no one is talking about Joe Worsley. IMO he has played himself into contention for the test team. He is a limited player, but this year he seems to have stuck to the the two things he does best, tackle and carry and this has made him into an international quality player. In the past he has tried to do too much and he wasn't talented enough. He is the best gain line tackler in the 6 nations. when you look at SA and the way they play, they are physical up front, like to gain yards around the fringes and use Jean De Villiers (and sometimes steyn) to smash up the 10,12 channel. This suits Joe perfectly. Against Wales he took Powell and Roberts out of the game. If SA play Spies at 8, then he needs to be stopped on the gain line. If you watch the Bok's, everytime Spies plays and he is allowed to get over the gain line from set plays, they usually go on to make huge yards with the momentum gained.

Martin Williams - i'm afraid he is now too old. That has been highlighted this 6 nations that finally MW engine isn't there anymore. Take into account the flat pitches and pace and power of the Bok's backrow and i think MW is more a liability than a plus. 2-3 years ago he'd be a shoe in. I don't expect to see him start a test match unless we have injuries.

Tom Croft's ability in the lineout and pace on the flat pitches i think makes him invaluable.

Gethin Jenkins has to start at 1. Sheridan has not been great in the scrum for a couple of years. He has however really become world class in the loose. his carrying around the fringes has been world class and i have often been shocked to see him leading the chase for kicks and chips. Sheirdan must be on the bench and used as an impact player.

Paul O'Connell is the only forward we have the SA respect and fear imo. He needs to have a big series if we stand a chance. POC and Brian O'D are the two leaders in the test side. I don't care who is captain and vice captain but these are our guys. Especially coming off the back of a Grand slam.

SA are the best lineout team in the world. Wales are one of the worst lineout teams in the 6 Nations ( in fact Wasps under Gatland had a stinky lineout too - does he ignore it)? so with this in mind im not sure selecting a Welsh player in the 2nd row is a wise tactic, no matter how much i rate AWJ in other aspects of the game. Why oh why do Scotland not play Hines?

9 - Phillips has to start. His physicality will be needed. Blair and Care as back ups. Ellis will tour too.

Fly Half - has to be Jones, cannot be O'Gara. Flood and Hook as back up. SA would do a far better job of targetting ROG than Wales did on Sat (and they did a decent job)

Centres - BOD is a shoe in at 13. I'd love to see Mathew Tait used in the 13 shirt for Eng. He has all the attributes to make a world class 13. 12 is an interesting one. At the moment, on form its between Flutey and D'Arcy. I'd probably go for D'Arcy for continuity sakes. Henson hasn't been great and i'm not too sure he's going to be a good person on tour.

Wingers - Williams and Bowe. Fitzgerald, T. Evans and Halfpenny as back up. Sackey has been poor for a while and i just don't trust Monye despite his pace.

Full Back - Byrne and Armatige with carney as back up. Byrne has been doing it for longer, but Armatige has more in the locker. Byrne has a dodgy ankle.

My test team below. based on trying to get as much experience, leadership, players who can combat SA's strengths and trying to keep some partnerships. Back ups in brackets

1) G. Jenkins (Sheridan)
2) Flannery (Ford)
3) Vickery (E. Murray)
4) POC (AWJ)
5) Hines (Kennedy)
6) Croft (Ferris)
7) Wallace (Worsely
8) Heaslip (R. Jones)
9) Phillips (Blair)
10) Jones
11) S. Williams (Fitzgerald)
12) D'Arcy (Flutey)
13) BOD (Mathew Tait)
14) Bowe (T. Evans)
15) Byrne (Armatige)

POC and BOD Captain and Vice Captain

[Si 330]

I would love to see Ben Foden sneak in he has that little something extra that can turn a Lions test.
How often do the test teams contain the front running players before they set off. Injuries always have a massive impact.
But on current form
my starting XV followed by ready to step in
15 Bryne Armitage
14 Williams Kearney
13 BoD Shaklin
12 Flutey Roberts
11 Sackey Fitzgerald
10 Jones Flood
9 Philips Ellis
1 Jenkins Sheridan
2 Ford Mears
3 Murray Vickery
4 O'connell (capt) Shaw
5 Jones Kennedy
6 Croft Worsley
8 Heaslip Jones
7 Williams Wallace

[Twit]

Agree with most of the above except at 10, it Wilkinson is playing he will go on the tour and I have no doubt will force himself into the side. I also think Armitage will emerge as the number one 15, the hard ground and altitude will suit his game. Joe Worsley will go for certain.

As has been said the 6 nations mean nothing, last time Mcgeechan was in charge he picked Greenwood before he had played for England, I'm sure there will be some more leftfield selections. The test team will be the best 15 playing over the course of the tour...

[hornetrider]

Twit said:

As has been said the 6 nations mean nothing, last time Mcgeechan was in charge he picked Greenwood before he had played for England, I'm sure there will be some more leftfield selections. The test team will be the best 15 playing over the course of the tour...

Good point, don't bet against JL being on the plane.

[merseyboy]

Twit said:

As has been said the 6 nations mean nothing, last time Mcgeechan was in charge he picked Greenwood before he had played for England, I'm sure there will be some more leftfield selections. The test team will be the best 15 playing over the course of the tour...

With this in mind and taking into account Geech a Wasps man, do we see Danny Cipriani touring ? There is no doubting his ability when giving the platform, in fact he is the most talented 10 in Britain when given good, quick ball, but that doesn't occur too much in rugby unless your the All Blacks. His form suggests he shouldn't tour, but i think Geech will have him down (if fully fit) as a wildcard entry. a player who can do more than any other 10 we have.

Eng 'leftfield' selections; (some very leftfield)

Danny Cipriani
James Simpson-Daniel
David Strettle
Ollie Morgan
Luke Narraway
Jordan Crane
James Haskell
Fraser Walters (really left field with this one and unlikely to happen)
Nick Kennedy
Michael Lipman
D. Wouldock
Robshaw
Skinner
Gues
Tindall
Peter Short
Abendenon
Hipkiss
Julian White
Lewis Moody
Dylan Hartley
S. Armatige
Ojo
Monye

I wonder if Barclay (Scottish 7) has a chance. I rate him highly and was delighted to see him not play vs Eng

Edited by merseyboy on Monday 23 March 10:12

[hornetrider]

Merseyboy, what are you on? I'll have some of that!

I think the only leftfield selection may be Josh. He's been discarded by England in my view because of his age, and has retired. But he's still performing. If S-D or Cips aren't getting picked that is on form, and therefore I can't see how they will be on the plane.

Cipriani doesn't have a cat's chance - he hasn't matured enough yet.

[Twit]

Of England players not playing I think Josh Lewsey has a shout, but there are stories around that he is not the most popular player about. That shouldnt make a difference really but the Lions is about gelling a team very quickly and you don't want anything to happen to stop that. Jonny Wilkinson will go if he can run! Cipriani would be horribly exposed in S Africa, he is fine going forward but very suspect in defence and defence is going to be really key. I can't see any point in him going

[SwanJack]

Don't forget the Lions also take one uncapped player with them.

[merseyboy]

Twit said:

Of England players not playing I think Josh Lewsey has a shout, but there are stories around that he is not the most popular player about. That shouldnt make a difference really but the Lions is about gelling a team very quickly and you don't want anything to happen to stop that. Jonny Wilkinson will go if he can run! Cipriani would be horribly exposed in S Africa, he is fine going forward but very suspect in defence and defence is going to be really key. I can't see any point in him going

As far as i know Josh Lewsey is a top guy, liked by most. I saw him limping around outside Twickers before the France game saying hi to anyone who did likewise.

I cannot see Wilkinson making the Lions. The issue here is that i don't think that Britain and Ireland actually has a world class 10 at the moment. None of them can defend their channel properly and the SA backrow love to charge down the 10 channel. It's a big worry. Maybe we need to adopt the tactic that Eng currently have, where in defence Joe Worsely, playing from openside, covers the 10 channel?
DC does seem to be a petulant prat heading down the same route as Henson took.

Lewsey may tour. He is a very experienced player and a good guy to have on tour. He won't get anywhere near the test team though and i'd like to see some of the more exciting, younger players get the place than Josh.

The test series will be won from 4-8

[DJC]

Starting line up:

Front row:
Jenkins
Hartley
Murray

Locks:
POC
Kennedy

Back Row:
Worzel
Heaslip
Croft

Half backs:
Phillips
Jones

Midfield:
Flutey
BoD

Back 3:
Williams
Byrne
Bowe

POC to Captain.

Things to remember:
Lineout. You need an enforcer and you need a jumping specialist. Kennedy is the best lineout jumper in the northern hemisphere. Simply put if the Lions are to compete at the lineout they need Kennedy. No ifs, no buts, he has to play. End of. Against that PoC is the best all round Lock in the northern hemisphere and he has redemption on his mind after the NZ tour. A perfect Lions partnership. Tom Croft has also established himself as a superb lineout man, he makes a perfect 3rd target.

Back row:
Takes a lot for me to shout the praises of Worzel, but the guy earlier in the thread is spot on. He has learnt to do what he does well and concentrate on that and stopping the Saffer back row on the gain line is going to be an almighty job and Worzel is the best around at that. I dont doubt the limitations to the rest of his game, but the Lions need someone to do the hard stopping and bash the ball back up themselves. Worzel is the man.
Tom Croft is the best all round athelete in the British game. Frankly he plays like a Saffers back row and he is the only guy we have got who can play their game. So he plays, end of.
Heaslip has been outstanding, Irish devil with Dally ability and nose for hard graft combined with a genuine flair. He can take the game to Spies and we will need that.

Pace and defence in the back 3.
Hard ground, flat and fast, the Saffers have pace to burn so we need that to match, Williams and Bowe are your men. Byrne has been rock solid at fullback, superb defensively, so he needs to play. Williams has added experience to his pace and can be relied upon to defend well these days.

Midfield:
Flutey and BoD? Oh yes please, so many possibilities there. Henson hasnt matured into the player everyone said he could be. Sorry but he hasnt. D'Arcy? Give me strength somebody, GdA has never been international class and he never will. Flutey is class (now the bugger is finally leaving Wasps I can happily say that, as he will stop ripping us to shreds in the Prem), has more vision and footballing ability than the rest of the inside centres in the isles put together. A perfect foil for Bod. The only other options Id contemplate starting in the midfield are Shanklin and Jamie Roberts if Geech wanted to give em some physical grief in their faces and I can understand if he does go that route.

Im under no illusions for this tour though, I dont think the Lions will win it. I dont think we have enough world class players in the isles at the moment, playing world class rugby 2-1 to the Saffers for me.

[merseyboy]

hornetrider said:

. If S-D or Cips aren't getting picked that is on form, and therefore I can't see how they will be on the plane..

JSD is not not being picked because of form. Its because of injury. He was selected to start in the Autumn but yet another injury prevented him playing. The guy is world class on his day and but for injuries would have a shoe in for Eng on one wing.

I remember a young JSD tearing jonah Lomu a new one for Eng vs Baba's and looking world class for Eng vs NZ at Twickenham. Injury has ruined the career of a very talented player.

[JRM]

I loved Johnno's comments this morning about the England tour to Argentina, saying that Lions is the priority and he'll just take what's left. Bet Argentina feel really special

[merseyboy]

DJC said:

D'Arcy? Give me strength somebody, GdA has never been international class and he never will. .

I follow everything else you have said, but the above is sheer nonsense. The guy is a class international and has proved it many times.

2004 - 6 Nations player of the tournament
2005 - British Lion
2006 - Beat more players than any other player in the 6 Nations
2006 - Was superb vs Australia and South Africa (got both motm awards if i remember correctly)
2007 - RBS 6 Nations player of the tournament
2008 - Double Fracture to his arm

He even kept BOD out of the side when he moved to 13.

I can't understand how anyone could say D'Arcy isn't International class ?

[DJC]

merseyboy said:

DJC said:

D'Arcy? Give me strength somebody, GdA has never been international class and he never will. .

I follow everything else you have said, but the above is sheer nonsense. The guy is a class international and has proved it many times.

2004 - 6 Nations player of the tournament
2005 - British Lion
2006 - Beat more players than any other player in the 6 Nations
2006 - Was superb vs Australia and South Africa (got both motm awards if i remember correctly)
2007 - RBS 6 Nations player of the tournament
2008 - Double Fracture to his arm

He even kept BOD out of the side when he moved to 13.

I can't understand how anyone could say D'Arcy isn't International class ?

Because he isnt?

2004-2007...the Home Nations were rubbish! The quality of rugby on offer has been dire for the last 5 years. The 6N Welsh winning teams of recent times havent actually been that good. The "Golden generation" of Irish players havent actually produced decent performances, certainly not consistent. Frankly over the last 5 yrs I would take the Munster, Wasps and a cpl of the Leics teams and backed them to beat the National teams all things being equal. The National teams simply havent been playing a decent standard.

The lack of quality of GDA was shown up in NZ where he got torn apart.

The dearth of genuine quality centres in the British isles in recent times is embarrassing. BoD when he is fit and motivated is the only real world class one we have had. Shanklin is an honest trier and gives you what he gives you...much like Tindall. To be any good though, they need blokes with vision and pace inside them. Henson *can* be class when he is fit, motivated and in form, but that accounts for about 10% of the time. Flutey has become class since he moved from NZ over here and had the exposure of top flight HC rugby, it has made him a better player. Its taken him a few games to fit into the england team, but I rather suspect that is more a reflection of the inadequacies of the England team than Flutey. Ive watched him tear various Leicester midfields apart not to think he is superb. Lets be honest though, he is a Kiwi, not English, doesnt change the fact that GDA isnt in Flutey's league, HC experience has shown that over the years, never mind the international arena.

[merseyboy]

DJC said:

merseyboy said:

DJC said:

D'Arcy? Give me strength somebody, GdA has never been international class and he never will. .

I follow everything else you have said, but the above is sheer nonsense. The guy is a class international and has proved it many times.

2004 - 6 Nations player of the tournament
2005 - British Lion
2006 - Beat more players than any other player in the 6 Nations
2006 - Was superb vs Australia and South Africa (got both motm awards if i remember correctly)
2007 - RBS 6 Nations player of the tournament
2008 - Double Fracture to his arm

He even kept BOD out of the side when he moved to 13.

I can't understand how anyone could say D'Arcy isn't International class ?

Because he isnt?

2004-2007...the Home Nations were rubbish! The quality of rugby on offer has been dire for the last 5 years. The 6N Welsh winning teams of recent times havent actually been that good. The "Golden generation" of Irish players havent actually produced decent performances, certainly not consistent. Frankly over the last 5 yrs I would take the Munster, Wasps and a cpl of the Leics teams and backed them to beat the National teams all things being equal. The National teams simply havent been playing a decent standard.

The lack of quality of GDA was shown up in NZ where he got torn apart.

The dearth of genuine quality centres in the British isles in recent times is embarrassing. BoD when he is fit and motivated is the only real world class one we have had. Shanklin is an honest trier and gives you what he gives you...much like Tindall. To be any good though, they need blokes with vision and pace inside them. Henson *can* be class when he is fit, motivated and in form, but that accounts for about 10% of the time. Flutey has become class since he moved from NZ over here and had the exposure of top flight HC rugby, it has made him a better player. Its taken him a few games to fit into the england team, but I rather suspect that is more a reflection of the inadequacies of the England team than Flutey. Ive watched him tear various Leicester midfields apart not to think he is superb. Lets be honest though, he is a Kiwi, not English, doesnt change the fact that GDA isnt in Flutey's league, HC experience has shown that over the years, never mind the international arena.

Well i think we will have to agree to disagree as i think Gordon D'Arcy is a world class centre. I'd be interested to know your views on Flutey for wasps though. He has been consistantly average to poor for the entire season. He was average in the Autumn Internationals too, but has looked the part this 6 Nations. I'm not sure he has done enough, or offers something special to be selected for the test team ahead of others taking into account his limited International career and iffy club and International form.

I agree with you about NH teams not being up to scratch for pretty much ever. In fact only England 2000-2003 had a team that has ever been able to mix it and beat the SH teams on a consistant basis, home or away. France reply on injections of sheer class and one off victories (usually vs NZ in world cups) and the rest have nothing to shout about when it comes to world Rugby. Wales, i think are a good team, who when they play well and injury free could beat Aus and possibly SA at home in the Autumn games. I have seen nothing to suggest they could beat nz anywhere at any time and certainly wouldn't fancy their chances away from home vs the SH sides or meeting them in a tournament. I also don't think this Wales team will get much better than what we have seen last year and this year. I'm not many Welsh fans realise how much they will miss Martyn Williams now that he has faded. I haven't seen anyone who will come in and develop into a similar quality player. I certainly don't see Wales as a team able to win the 2011 World Cup. In fact i'd be very surprised if any NH team does anything of note. Its much much harder to win in the SH and they don't often lose down there.

[DJC]

Wasps this season simply havent got to grips with the ELVs like the other teams have, combined with losing Waters in the midfield, Dally's on-field game management and know-how and Cip's injury meaning they lose their backline general, so disrupting their flow ..the things that made Wasps so dangerous. Oh and the Prem's hitherto most reliable back 3 player suffered a woeful loss of form...Josh Lewsey. Consequently Flutey hasnt shone. For the previous 3 seasons however he has been superb and got better each season since his first for Irish, culminating in being the outstanding centre in the Isles over the last 2 seasons. I can barely contain my jigs of joy at seeing Wasps die slow painful deaths, so in no way mistake me for a Wasps fan (Im a Tigers man), but the Flutey of the last 2 England matches is far more like the Flutey of the last 3 seasons. Im overjoyed he is buggering off to France next season so he cant do much more damage against us (just him run a hattrick in against us in the HC next year now!) because he is the most intelligent footballer in our part of the rugby world right now.

Flutey/Tindall might just be a superb England combination if Tindall can stay fit, but even then Id like to see England get comfortable with using Tait and Hipkiss in the midfield so the combinations can be altered and changed depending on the circumstances and our play not suffer.

[TheGreatSoprendo]

SwanJack said:

Don't forget the Lions also take one uncapped player with them.

No they don't. The Baa Baas have a tradition of selecting one uncapped player (although they don't always do so), but not the Lions. There was no uncapped player on the 2005 tour, for example.

merseyboy said:

I'm not many Welsh fans realise how much they will miss Martyn Williams now that he has faded.

I'm a little baffled by that on 2 counts:
1. What makes you think Martyn has faded?
2. I think almost all Welsh fans are acutely aware of importance of Martyn Williams to the cause and also the need to find/develop a successor to him. Why do you think otherwise?