England Vs Springboks
Discussion
uk_vette said:
'Boks did well.
42 - 6
biggest twickenham loss for England?
Yep, new record! Not good...42 - 6
biggest twickenham loss for England?
I'm really not too sure what Johnson can do at the moment, he has got the best players that are available but they just need to gell a bit - there is no experience in the backs at all and Cipriani is looking anything but a wonder boy...
Listened on the radio to this and Matt Dawson was doing his nut most of the second half with the basic errors England were making ...
Just because some bloke won the World Cup as a player why does it ellevate him to almost God-like status as a manager? He has NO track record ... well he has now - a bad one.
Bobby Charlton won the soccer World Cup but he was a crap manager*.
If they play as bad again, then next weekend will not be pretty as the All Blacks are a better team than the Boks. And the worst result record may have lasted all of a week.
Just because some bloke won the World Cup as a player why does it ellevate him to almost God-like status as a manager? He has NO track record ... well he has now - a bad one.
Bobby Charlton won the soccer World Cup but he was a crap manager*.
If they play as bad again, then next weekend will not be pretty as the All Blacks are a better team than the Boks. And the worst result record may have lasted all of a week.
*His brother wasn't bad though
To be honest, i think some of the play we were trying to create is promising. We were trying to get the ball wide on a number of occasions, but we just seem to lack the finesse and ability.
You can see it's early in the season, whereas it's the end of the season for the boks, we look rusty, they look sharp as nails.
The backs do look promising in certain areas. Care seems very switched on, and seems to rile the opposition, but not in the same way Ellis does. Cipriani needs to go and get his head straight. Mike Catt wrote a good column in the Sunday telegraph saying he needs to simply go back to Wasps and find his confidence. Playing him next week could be damaging for him. I also think that he's believde the hype and needs to be brough down to earth. He seems to have been worshiped as a Wonder Boy, without ever really proving himself at an international level. Fluety and Noon haven't seemed to do an awful lot in the last three games, they've been there to pass on quick ball, but they're both great players and i don't think they've shown that. Clearly Flutey didn't play a huge role against the Boks, but i think we're still struggling to find a centre pairing and have been since the Greenwood and Tindall partnership. The back three look good to me. Armitage has potential and Monye and Sackey look strong as well. Sackey made a few too many basic errors against the Boks and i think there's still some question marks over the defence here, but i do think they have potential.
I'll come to the forwards later. Got to go to a quick meeting. But, generally, whilst we're getting quicker ball at the breakdown, it's still not quick enough. We're also overcommtting at the breakdown, leaivng us short in the attack, or defence at a turnover. The Boks never committed more than 2 men when the breakdown was lost, giving them an advantage in defence.
And as for the penalty count...
You can see it's early in the season, whereas it's the end of the season for the boks, we look rusty, they look sharp as nails.
The backs do look promising in certain areas. Care seems very switched on, and seems to rile the opposition, but not in the same way Ellis does. Cipriani needs to go and get his head straight. Mike Catt wrote a good column in the Sunday telegraph saying he needs to simply go back to Wasps and find his confidence. Playing him next week could be damaging for him. I also think that he's believde the hype and needs to be brough down to earth. He seems to have been worshiped as a Wonder Boy, without ever really proving himself at an international level. Fluety and Noon haven't seemed to do an awful lot in the last three games, they've been there to pass on quick ball, but they're both great players and i don't think they've shown that. Clearly Flutey didn't play a huge role against the Boks, but i think we're still struggling to find a centre pairing and have been since the Greenwood and Tindall partnership. The back three look good to me. Armitage has potential and Monye and Sackey look strong as well. Sackey made a few too many basic errors against the Boks and i think there's still some question marks over the defence here, but i do think they have potential.
I'll come to the forwards later. Got to go to a quick meeting. But, generally, whilst we're getting quicker ball at the breakdown, it's still not quick enough. We're also overcommtting at the breakdown, leaivng us short in the attack, or defence at a turnover. The Boks never committed more than 2 men when the breakdown was lost, giving them an advantage in defence.
And as for the penalty count...
Watch out England, NZ are coming and judging you on your performance against SA and NZ's against us they are going to set a new record, be warned!
I'm not sure where England can go, as was pointed out by Dayglo after the game the players out on the pitch are your first choice team, there are no wonder players sat in the wings awaiting a comeback. You can only work with what you've got and for the first time in decades England look fragile with a serious lack of talent coming through.
Cips is rubbish, Flood should be starting (Jonny if fit). Ellis should get nod over Care. What has happened to that Moody chap? I always throught he made a good account for himself on the field.
And even though I think he's one dimensional I would put Tindall back at 12, your current centres are clueless (as are your wingers and FB).
You forwards did ok, especially at the set peices but simply not physical enough in the breakdown or mobile enough around the park.
I'm not sure where England can go, as was pointed out by Dayglo after the game the players out on the pitch are your first choice team, there are no wonder players sat in the wings awaiting a comeback. You can only work with what you've got and for the first time in decades England look fragile with a serious lack of talent coming through.
Cips is rubbish, Flood should be starting (Jonny if fit). Ellis should get nod over Care. What has happened to that Moody chap? I always throught he made a good account for himself on the field.
And even though I think he's one dimensional I would put Tindall back at 12, your current centres are clueless (as are your wingers and FB).
You forwards did ok, especially at the set peices but simply not physical enough in the breakdown or mobile enough around the park.
disco1 said:
Watch out England,
<snip>
Wouldn't agree on a couple of points:<snip>
disco1 said:
Cips is rubbish
I genuinely think he is a great player, just got caught up in the hype and needs to step back and take stock.disco1 said:
your current centres are clueless (as are your wingers and FB)
I think that Delon Armitage is one of the most promising England players, and has so far given a very good account of himself.evenflow said:
disco1 said:
Watch out England,
<snip>
Wouldn't agree on a couple of points:<snip>
disco1 said:
Cips is rubbish
I genuinely think he is a great player, just got caught up in the hype and needs to step back and take stock.disco1 said:
your current centres are clueless (as are your wingers and FB)
I think that Delon Armitage is one of the most promising England players, and has so far given a very good account of himself.Armitage is again pretty average, not an international player, didn't he get chased down by a lock?
Your 'Elite' group is quite ordinary, I can't see the issue with admitting this?
disco1 said:
evenflow said:
Wouldn't agree on a couple of points:
Oh please! Cips is a promising youngster, nothing more, he isn't an international 10, he can't pass, kick or has any positional awareness, the breaks (in previous games)he has made could have been made by anyone, even a prop. I actually feel pretty sorry for him, he's been built up by the media to be some world beater. I've said it plenty of times the only fit English 10 who can control a game is Andy goode.disco1 said:
Cips is rubbish
I genuinely think he is a great player, just got caught up in the hype and needs to step back and take stock.disco1 said:
your current centres are clueless (as are your wingers and FB)
I think that Delon Armitage is one of the most promising England players, and has so far given a very good account of himself.Armitage is again pretty average, not an international player, didn't he get chased down by a lock?
Your 'Elite' group is quite ordinary, I can't see the issue with admitting this?
Agree to disagree about Armitage?
No issue in admitting the elite group is quite ordinary at the moment.
Incidentally, from your profile I presume you're a Welsh supporter? The atmosphere before and the first half of the game against the All Blacks was magnificent, some of the best build up and rugby I've seen
Deep joy.
NZ will be a step up too. They totally outplayed a good Welsh side in the 2nd half.
What I cannot fathom, is the northern hemispheres teams inability to play the ref. SA/Aus and NZ are balatantly flagrant with regards most of the laws of the game, but are sharp enough to get away with it. Anyone see the NZ scrum pinching and feeding the 2nd row?! If the ref lets it happen, what can you do.
NZ will be a step up too. They totally outplayed a good Welsh side in the 2nd half.
What I cannot fathom, is the northern hemispheres teams inability to play the ref. SA/Aus and NZ are balatantly flagrant with regards most of the laws of the game, but are sharp enough to get away with it. Anyone see the NZ scrum pinching and feeding the 2nd row?! If the ref lets it happen, what can you do.
evenflow said:
Incidentally, from your profile I presume you're a Welsh supporter? The atmosphere before and the first half of the game against the All Blacks was magnificent, some of the best build up and rugby I've seen
Yep, wear the Red with pride (but also proud to cheer on any home nation), we're British afterall. Shame not everyone can be like this.Yes, the pre match face off and first half were great. shame about the 2nd half but it was always on the cards, the Kiwis just have too many gears. We're improving well and building up a good squad, we've always been a team of indivduals but Gatland won't have any of this, he wants strength throughout the squad. We should have beaten SA but as allways; could have, should have...
Touching on another point raised by another poster about how we never play the ref, this does my nut in, McCaw & Co blatently cheat and play the ref, in their eyes you only cheat when caught, McCaw was constantly stepping in from the Welsh side then stepping over the player to give the impression he was competing fair and square. To make it worse the ref seemed happy with this and even appologised a few times for 'pinging' them!!!!
We in the North need to get this 'win at all costs' mind state. NZ, SA and Oz are much more street wise than us and it shows, they block players, charge into retreating players to clear them out, they take one for the team and a ferocious at the break down. We need to learn and fast.
disco1 said:
evenflow said:
Incidentally, from your profile I presume you're a Welsh supporter? The atmosphere before and the first half of the game against the All Blacks was magnificent, some of the best build up and rugby I've seen
Yep, wear the Red with pride (but also proud to cheer on any home nation), we're British afterall. Shame not everyone can be like this.Yes, the pre match face off and first half were great. shame about the 2nd half but it was always on the cards, the Kiwis just have too many gears. We're improving well and building up a good squad, we've always been a team of indivduals but Gatland won't have any of this, he wants strength throughout the squad. We should have beaten SA but as allways; could have, should have...
Touching on another point raised by another poster about how we never play the ref, this does my nut in, McCaw & Co blatently cheat and play the ref, in their eyes you only cheat when caught, McCaw was constantly stepping in from the Welsh side then stepping over the player to give the impression he was competing fair and square. To make it worse the ref seemed happy with this and even appologised a few times for 'pinging' them!!!!
We in the North need to get this 'win at all costs' mind state. NZ, SA and Oz are much more street wise than us and it shows, they block players, charge into retreating players to clear them out, they take one for the team and a ferocious at the break down. We need to learn and fast.
disco1 said:
evenflow said:
Incidentally, from your profile I presume you're a Welsh supporter? The atmosphere before and the first half of the game against the All Blacks was magnificent, some of the best build up and rugby I've seen
Yep, wear the Red with pride (but also proud to cheer on any home nation), we're British afterall. Shame not everyone can be like this.Yes, the pre match face off and first half were great. shame about the 2nd half but it was always on the cards, the Kiwis just have too many gears. We're improving well and building up a good squad, we've always been a team of indivduals but Gatland won't have any of this, he wants strength throughout the squad. We should have beaten SA but as allways; could have, should have...
Touching on another point raised by another poster about how we never play the ref, this does my nut in, McCaw & Co blatently cheat and play the ref, in their eyes you only cheat when caught, McCaw was constantly stepping in from the Welsh side then stepping over the player to give the impression he was competing fair and square. To make it worse the ref seemed happy with this and even appologised a few times for 'pinging' them!!!!
We in the North need to get this 'win at all costs' mind state. NZ, SA and Oz are much more street wise than us and it shows, they block players, charge into retreating players to clear them out, they take one for the team and a ferocious at the break down. We need to learn and fast.
The question should be, do we in the NH go with the win at all costs mentality, or should the refs be forced to do their job properly.
If you look at Super 12 (or whatever it's called now), the game is riddled with obstructions, crossing, offside, knockons, forward passes, and the refs allow much of it in the name of entertainment. I reckon 75% of SH wing touch downs come from a final forward pass.
The blocking of attacking opponents by SH sides is rife, and again allowed by refs.
Edited by ratbane on Monday 24th November 12:07
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