South Africa gave Wales a Tonking

[Welshbeef]

Oh well it wasnt fun watching the game really a boys v men.... and the Tourists were still in school.


Im not sure what turnaround Gatland can hope for within a week - I'd say the only addition would be charvis who could match them at the breakdown with his physicality (but I dont think Charvis has the desire anymore).

Injuries clearly hampered things but hey thats no excuse you take your best team you can + they had a few missing notably Burger (is he back for this Sat's game)?

I didnt manage to see the Ireland game but have heard it was in freezing conditions really terrible so handling etc was poor.

[Davey S2]

I dont think you are giving them justice.

Yes the injury situation didnt help although as you say you cant use that as an excuse.

I didnt think Wales played badly but they gave SA too much respect.

Also giving away so many early penalties was a disaster. You are unlikely to pull that deficit back against the World Champions on home soil.

I'm hoping for better things next Saturday.

[Welshbeef]

Davey S2 said:

I dont think you are giving them justice.

Yes the injury situation didnt help although as you say you cant use that as an excuse.

I didnt think Wales played badly but they gave SA too much respect.

Also giving away so many early penalties was a disaster. You are unlikely to pull that deficit back against the World Champions on home soil.

I'm hoping for better things next Saturday.

Me too but I cannot see it happen.

Luckily I have found out that the pub at the end of my road 30 seconds walk opens at 7.30am... so have a few mates down for the weekend therefore 7.230am start in the Pub for the England game and then stay there for the rest of the day mmm beer

[stimmers]

Welshbeef said:

Oh well it wasnt fun watching the game really a boys v men.... and the Tourists were still in school.


Im not sure what turnaround Gatland can hope for within a week - I'd say the only addition would be charvis who could match them at the breakdown with his physicality (but I dont think Charvis has the desire anymore).

Injuries clearly hampered things but hey thats no excuse you take your best team you can + they had a few missing notably Burger (is he back for this Sat's game)?

I didnt manage to see the Ireland game but have heard it was in freezing conditions really terrible so handling etc was poor.

It showed how much Wales need Martin Williams. Simply not the same team without him.
I'm not a big fan of Burger, i think he's vastly over rated.
Matfield however will start for SA, Ricky Januarie too and possibly JP Pietersen.

[Welshbeef]

[/quote]

It showed how much Wales need Martin Williams. Simply not the same team without him.
I'm not a big fan of Burger, i think he's vastly over rated.
Matfield however will start for SA, Ricky Januarie too and possibly JP Pietersen.
[/quote]

True M Williams is sorely missed and then without the stand in Sowdon Taylor. If I were Gats Charvis would have had the nod - brillient player tireless at the breakdown and one of the few who can really give the required physicality at the Breakdown.


Do you remember that Jerry Collins v M Williams Nov05?? M Williams couldnt match his physicality, having said that Nugget brillient player.

[stimmers]

Welshbeef said:

It showed how much Wales need Martin Williams. Simply not the same team without him.
I'm not a big fan of Burger, i think he's vastly over rated.
Matfield however will start for SA, Ricky Januarie too and possibly JP Pietersen.

True M Williams is sorely missed and then without the stand in Sowdon Taylor. If I were Gats Charvis would have had the nod - brillient player tireless at the breakdown and one of the few who can really give the required physicality at the Breakdown.


Do you remember that Jerry Collins v M Williams Nov05?? M Williams couldnt match his physicality, having said that Nugget brillient player.

The thing with the backrow is it all depends on the front row and 2nd rwo giving your the platform to play. With all due respect to Eng's World Cup backrow, they simply are not in the class of George Smith or Elsom, but the fact Australia's front row were so dominated it took them out of the game totally as they were going backwards. Which is why you can only have a 6 like Corry in that situation. Smith has to turn, get onside, then compete for the ball with no momentum a guy like Corry coming in is simply going to smash him off his feet. Exactly the same thing happened when Collins vs Williams in 05.

M. Williams for me is right up there with the best 7's Europe has produced. He's very clever, his work rate is amazing and not only does he secure Wales's own ball, but he does the vital thing of turning over opposition ball. Just like Neil Back did for Eng. But he needs the platform to operate.

I don't think he'll make the next Lions tour which is a big shame, not only do Wales seriously need someone to step up in the 7 shirt soon, but the Lions do too. I don't see a stand out 7 in Britain and Ireland yet who can compete with Watson or Burger. Haskell and Ryan Jones i think have the 6 and 8 shirts nailed for the Lions.

In fact for me the 2 and 7 shirt are the only ones in the pack i think are up for grabs for the Lions test team if all are fit.

1) Sheridan
2)
3) Stevens
4) O'Connell
5) Wyn-Jones
6) Haskell
7)
8) Jones

Edited by stimmers on Wednesday 11th June 15:41

[TheGreatSoprendo]

Team for Saturday has been announced with some, errrr, interesting selections, notably James Hook at full back and Jamie Roberts at 12. If Gyppo Jenkins was still in charge I'd be sobbing in despair at this point, but at least with Gatland and Edwards I have some faith that they know what they're doing. Should be interesting come Saturday!

Wales team to face South Africa: James Hook (Ospreys); Mark Jones (Scarlets), Tom Shanklin (Blues), Jamie Roberts (Blues), Shane Williams (Ospreys); Stephen Jones (Scarlets), Gareth Cooper (Gloucester); Gethin Jenkins (Blues), Richard Hibbard (Ospreys), Rhys Thomas (Dragons), Ian Gough (Ospreys), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Jonathan Thomas (Ospreys), Gareth Delve (Gloucester), Ryan Jones (Ospreys, capt).
Replacements: T Rhys Thomas (Blues), Duncan Jones (Ospreys), Ian Evans (Ospreys), Dafydd Jones (Scarlets), Warren Fury (London Irish), Andrew Bishop (Ospreys), Tom James (Blues).

ETA: Holy cow, I've just noticed that Rhys Thomas has come in for Adam Jones at TH. Adam must have done something naughty I presume as Thomas is not half the tighthead Adam is...

Edited by TheGreatSoprendo on Thursday 12th June 12:13

[Welshbeef]

TheGreatSoprendo said:

Team for Saturday has been announced with some, errrr, interesting selections, notably James Hook at full back and Jamie Roberts at 12. If Gyppo Jenkins was still in charge I'd be sobbing in despair at this point, but at least with Gatland and Edwards I have some faith that they know what they're doing. Should be interesting come Saturday!

Wales team to face South Africa: James Hook (Ospreys); Mark Jones (Scarlets), Tom Shanklin (Blues), Jamie Roberts (Blues), Shane Williams (Ospreys); Stephen Jones (Scarlets), Gareth Cooper (Gloucester); Gethin Jenkins (Blues), Richard Hibbard (Ospreys), Rhys Thomas (Dragons), Ian Gough (Ospreys), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Jonathan Thomas (Ospreys), Gareth Delve (Gloucester), Ryan Jones (Ospreys, capt).
Replacements: T Rhys Thomas (Blues), Duncan Jones (Ospreys), Ian Evans (Ospreys), Dafydd Jones (Scarlets), Warren Fury (London Irish), Andrew Bishop (Ospreys), Tom James (Blues).

ETA: Holy cow, I've just noticed that Rhys Thomas has come in for Adam Jones at TH. Adam must have done something naughty I presume as Thomas is not half the tighthead Adam is...

Edited by TheGreatSoprendo on Thursday 12th June 12:13

Seen that too - AJ is a great prop, seen him a couple of times at the local Abercarve 7's tournaments massive.

[stimmers]

South Africa: Conrad Jantjes; Tonderai Chavhanga, Adrian Jacobs, Jean de Villiers, Bryan Habana; Butch James, Ricky Januarie; Tendai Mtawarira, John Smit (capt), BJ Botha, Bakkies Botha, Victor Matfield, Luke Watson, Juan Smith, Pierre Smith.
Replacements: Bismarck Du Plessis, Gurthrö Steenkamp, Andries Bekker, Ryan Kankowski, Bolla Conradie, Francois Steyn, Percy Montgomery.



Sorry Guys, can't see anything but a very similar scoreline to the 1st test. Maybe even worse. Wonder how the Welsh lineout will go vs Matfield plays.
Can't see the Welsh back row getting anywhere near Smith and Watson.
Interesting they have left Montgomery and Steyn on the bench. Full Back could be a weakness for the Bokke. Welsh backs bar Roberts are pretty good. I kno they were thinking of playing Hook at either 12 or 15, interesting experiment, but i'd have thought 12 would have suited him better.

SA, 2nd row and back row will win this game comfortably for the Bokke again.

[TheGreatSoprendo]

stimmers said:

Welsh backs bar Roberts are pretty good. I kno they were thinking of playing Hook at either 12 or 15, interesting experiment, but i'd have thought 12 would have suited him better.

I can see your logic, but Hook at 12 was tried at length during Gyppo Jenkins' reign and never really worked. I think both Roberts at 12 and Hook at 15 are risks, but Hook has the attributes to do well at 15 I think. I think the primary reason for his inclusion there is to give more length and accuaracy in the kicking exchanges (something that Byrne normally does so well for us), but he also has the running game to create opportunities through counter attacking. In defence, I think he's solid enough despite not having the bulk of Roberts to make the really big hits. My main concern is over his tactical and positional play in what's a new position to him (aside from a few semi-pro games for Neath). Incidentally, why the downer on Roberts? Is this based purely on last week's game or more generally?

stimmers said:

Wonder how the Welsh lineout will go vs Matfield plays.

Yes, the lineout was a bit shambolic last week. I'm a little surprised that Ian Evans hasn't come in for Ian Gough to try and improve this area as well as putting a bit of niggle Bakkies' way! Let's just hope the lineout will function a little better this week than last...

stimmers said:

Sorry Guys, can't see anything but a very similar scoreline to the 1st test. Maybe even worse.

I disagree a little on this. I can't see us making the same number of basic schoolboy errors as we did last week, and I certainly hope the referee won't be gifting the Boks 14 fairly outrageous points this time around. The Boks will still win it by 12-15 points, though.

Edited by TheGreatSoprendo on Friday 13th June 10:52

[Welshbeef]

Will be strolling down to the local @7.30am tomorrow and get a good seat for the full day session.

Beer breakfast sounds VERY appealing

[stimmers]

TheGreatSoprendo said:

stimmers said:

Welsh backs bar Roberts are pretty good. I kno they were thinking of playing Hook at either 12 or 15, interesting experiment, but i'd have thought 12 would have suited him better.

I can see your logic, but Hook at 12 was tried at length during Gyppo Jenkins' reign and never really worked. I think both Roberts at 12 and Hook at 15 are risks, but Hook has the attributes to do well at 15 I think. I think the primary reason for his inclusion there is to give more length and accuaracy in the kicking exchanges (something that Byrne normally does so well for us), but he also has the running game to create opportunities through counter attacking. In defence, I think he's solid enough despite not having the bulk of Roberts to make the really big hits. My main concern is over his tactical and positional play in what's a new position to him (aside from a few semi-pro games for Neath). Incidentally, why the downer on Roberts? Is this based purely on last week's game or more generally?

stimmers said:

Wonder how the Welsh lineout will go vs Matfield plays.

Yes, the lineout was a bit shambolic last week. I'm a little surprised that Ian Evans hasn't come in for Ian Gough to try and improve this area as well as putting a bit of niggle Bakkies' way! Let's just hope the lineout will function a little better this week than last...

stimmers said:

Sorry Guys, can't see anything but a very similar scoreline to the 1st test. Maybe even worse.

I disagree a little on this. I can't see us making the same number of basic schoolboy errors as we did last week, and I certainly hope the referee won't be gifting the Boks 14 fairly outrageous points this time around. The Boks will still win it by 12-15 points, though.

Edited by TheGreatSoprendo on Friday 13th June 10:52

With all due respect, Wales tried a lot of things under Gyppo that didn't work out. Gatland and Edwards haven't made a huge amount of personel changes from the Gyppo years, they have just given the players more confidence a better game plan and the belief in their own abilities. Your right, 15 is all about tactical positioning, which is why i don't think you can just wack a player in the 15 shirt. I personally think Mathew Tait is a shocking Full back because of this, despite being a brilliant 13 (IMO). I think Byrne has possibly been the most improved player in Europe since Gatland took over and has been solid at 15. I'd leave him there and honestly think a
10 Jones 12 Hook 13 Shanklin has real balance too it with some good decision makers. Without Henson its bar far Wales' best combination for me.
Roberts i just don't rate, especially in International rugby and even more so when you see that he lines up against De Villers, who was outstanding in the 1st test, the form 12 in the world (possibly the best 12 at the moment?).
De villers running at Roberst would scare the life out of me if i were Welsh and i don't see Roberts causing him too many issues in defence.

Pretoria being higher up also makes it more difficult for Wales. I don't see Wales winning the back row battle, the lineout or the contact area, physicality. Which makes it very very hard to win a game of rugby.

Hope im wrong, the NH needs Wales, Ireland and Eng to win, or at te very least, one of them. I'll be cheering all home unions on tmrw in the hope of an upset !!!!

[stimmers]

Welshbeef said:

Will be strolling down to the local @7.30am tomorrow and get a good seat for the full day session.

Beer breakfast sounds VERY appealing

I got a bloody kickboxing exam at 4pm, so now booze for me !!!!!

[Welshbeef]

stimmers said:

Welshbeef said:

Will be strolling down to the local @7.30am tomorrow and get a good seat for the full day session.

Beer breakfast sounds VERY appealing

I got a bloody kickboxing exam at 4pm, so now booze for me !!!!!

Oh dear.... best keep radio turned off & TV and record the lot then 3 games back to back in the evening.

[disco1]

The game could be pretty good if we arn't sloppy with our possesion and kick away too much, I do worry about Hook at 15 but time has shown he has fantastic attacking abilities and a pretty good boot!

Roberts should be solid and I expect every Welshman to step up to the plate, this is the final chance to gain some respect.

stimmers said:

I got a bloody kickboxing exam

A what? I didn't think you were graded like in Judo/Karate, I thought it was more like proper boxing where you train hard and hit hard? shows what I know. Good luck. Just avoid him:

[uk_vette]

I feel with the way Wales are playing, then the score line will be even more points for the Bok's

Did Bakkies play last week?, I don't think so.

And also to leave Montgomery out, or is he on the bench.

It could well be embarrasing for Wales this time.

[Welshbeef]

uk_vette said:

I feel with the way Wales are playing, then the score line will be even more points for the Bok's

Did Bakkies play last week?, I don't think so.

And also to leave Montgomery out, or is he on the bench.

It could well be embarrasing for Wales this time.

Bakkies was certainly playing last weekend.

[TheGreatSoprendo]

uk_vette said:

Did Bakkies play last week?, I don't think so.

He did - It was Bakkies and Bekker to start and Matfield came off the bench 2nd half.

uk_vette said:

And also to leave Montgomery out, or is he on the bench.

He was also on the bench and, again, came on in the 2nd half (at centre!)He's on the bench again this week. Perhaps he'll come on at tighthead this time...

Edited by TheGreatSoprendo on Friday 13th June 17:25

[stimmers]

Welshbeef said:

stimmers said:

Welshbeef said:

Will be strolling down to the local @7.30am tomorrow and get a good seat for the full day session.

Beer breakfast sounds VERY appealing

I got a bloody kickboxing exam at 4pm, so now booze for me !!!!!

Oh dear.... best keep radio turned off & TV and record the lot then 3 games back to back in the evening.

There is no way on earth i wouldn't know the scores by the evening and no way could i not watch Eng play the AB's live.

Im just going to have to be a good boy

[stimmers]

disco1 said:

The game could be pretty good if we arn't sloppy with our possesion and kick away too much, I do worry about Hook at 15 but time has shown he has fantastic attacking abilities and a pretty good boot!

Roberts should be solid and I expect every Welshman to step up to the plate, this is the final chance to gain some respect.

stimmers said:

I got a bloody kickboxing exam

A what? I didn't think you were graded like in Judo/Karate, I thought it was more like proper boxing where you train hard and hit hard? shows what I know. Good luck. Just avoid him:

Just the same as Karate. Some of the belts might be a different colour though. Your graded on a series of techniques and then sparring in the ring for each belt.

Brown and White for me tmrw. Would have cancelled but i want to get this belt and the next before i move away from London. That would put me on Black, which will have to wait a bit !!!