England Rugby Tour to NZ
Discussion
Article by Rob Kitson in the Guardian below;
[b]New wave to sweep away old guard:
Argues that Olly Barkley, Mike Tindall, Toby Flood, Lesley Vainikolo, Richard Wigglesworth and Michael Lipman should be left out as we know what they can do at this level and that the likes of Tom Guest, Dan Ward-Smith, Tom Varndell and Ben Foden should also be in contention.
My (Rob's) England tour squad (fitness permitting):
Backs: M Brown (Harlequins), J Lewsey (Wasps), D Strettle (Harlequins), P Sackey (Wasps), J Simpson-Daniel (Gloucester), M Tait (Newcastle), J Noon (Newcastle), D Hipkiss (Leicester), S Geraghty (London Irish), D Cipriani (Wasps), J Wilkinson (Newcastle), D Care (Harlequins), H Ellis (Leicester), P Richards (London Irish).
Forwards: D Hartley (Northampton), L Mears (Bath), D Paice (London Irish), T Payne (Wasps), A Sheridan (Sale), M Stevens (Bath), P Vickery (Wasps, capt), S Borthwick (Bath), N Kennedy (London Irish), S Shaw (Wasps), T Croft (Leicester), J Haskell (Wasps), C Robshaw (Harlequins), L Moody (Leicester), T Rees (Wasps), N Easter (Harlequins).
First test XV: M Brown; Sackey, Hipkiss, Geraghty, Simpson-Daniel; Cipriani, Care; Sheridan, Hartley, Vickery (capt), Shaw, Croft, Haskell, Moody, Easter. Reps: Paice, Stevens, Borthwick, Rees, Ellis, Wilkinson, Tait[/b]
I wouldn't want Barkley near any squad, i think its a stupid decision to take Ellis as he's only just back from a big injury and i'd take Flood, Wigglesworth and Lipman.
I like the test team he has selected, with the exception of Tom Croft at 5, he's not a 5 and been very poor when playing there for Tigers this season. I'd play Kennedy instead at 5 and have Croft on the bench.
Other than that, looks really good to me and i think a serious amount of development would come from it. Obviously its wishful thinking and we are going to churn out the same players doing the same things as we did in the 6 Nations and continue to stay still, but its a nice to know what w could bhe doing.
Thoughts ??
[b]New wave to sweep away old guard:
Argues that Olly Barkley, Mike Tindall, Toby Flood, Lesley Vainikolo, Richard Wigglesworth and Michael Lipman should be left out as we know what they can do at this level and that the likes of Tom Guest, Dan Ward-Smith, Tom Varndell and Ben Foden should also be in contention.
My (Rob's) England tour squad (fitness permitting):
Backs: M Brown (Harlequins), J Lewsey (Wasps), D Strettle (Harlequins), P Sackey (Wasps), J Simpson-Daniel (Gloucester), M Tait (Newcastle), J Noon (Newcastle), D Hipkiss (Leicester), S Geraghty (London Irish), D Cipriani (Wasps), J Wilkinson (Newcastle), D Care (Harlequins), H Ellis (Leicester), P Richards (London Irish).
Forwards: D Hartley (Northampton), L Mears (Bath), D Paice (London Irish), T Payne (Wasps), A Sheridan (Sale), M Stevens (Bath), P Vickery (Wasps, capt), S Borthwick (Bath), N Kennedy (London Irish), S Shaw (Wasps), T Croft (Leicester), J Haskell (Wasps), C Robshaw (Harlequins), L Moody (Leicester), T Rees (Wasps), N Easter (Harlequins).
First test XV: M Brown; Sackey, Hipkiss, Geraghty, Simpson-Daniel; Cipriani, Care; Sheridan, Hartley, Vickery (capt), Shaw, Croft, Haskell, Moody, Easter. Reps: Paice, Stevens, Borthwick, Rees, Ellis, Wilkinson, Tait[/b]
I wouldn't want Barkley near any squad, i think its a stupid decision to take Ellis as he's only just back from a big injury and i'd take Flood, Wigglesworth and Lipman.
I like the test team he has selected, with the exception of Tom Croft at 5, he's not a 5 and been very poor when playing there for Tigers this season. I'd play Kennedy instead at 5 and have Croft on the bench.
Other than that, looks really good to me and i think a serious amount of development would come from it. Obviously its wishful thinking and we are going to churn out the same players doing the same things as we did in the 6 Nations and continue to stay still, but its a nice to know what w could bhe doing.
Thoughts ??
Edited by stimmers on Tuesday 25th March 17:31
Rob Kitsons First test XV: M Brown; Sackey, Hipkiss, Geraghty, Simpson-Daniel; Cipriani, Care; Sheridan, Hartley, Vickery (capt), Shaw, Croft, Haskell, Moody, Easter.
Reps: Paice, Stevens, Borthwick, Rees, Ellis, Wilkinson, Tait
Overall, like the look of that, and we all know that should have been the sort of team that played in the Six Nations.
A few changes I would make:
Tait; Sackey, Hipkiss, Geraghty, Simpson-Daniel; Cipriani, Care; Sheridan, Paice, Stevens, Shaw, Kennedy, Haskell, Moody, Easter.
Reps: Hartley, Vickery, Borthwick, Croft, Richards, Wilkinson, Brown
Now for the justification on the players i'v changed. Brown has no international experience as yet, so starting on the bench might be sensible initially. Stevens just looks more dynamic than Vickery, and has better handling skills. Hartley on the bench as I have seen little of him in action, I know you are a fan of him Stimmers but it's easy to look consistently good in Division One, lets see if he is as good in the Premiership next season (but saying all that, he looked good for the Saxons!). And Kennedy's consistent performances in the Prem deserve him a place. Richards on the bench in place of Ellis, because like you say, will only have a few game under his belt. His form against the Ospreys shows he will bounce back quickly.
Go on then Stimmers, rip all that to pieces!
Reps: Paice, Stevens, Borthwick, Rees, Ellis, Wilkinson, Tait
Overall, like the look of that, and we all know that should have been the sort of team that played in the Six Nations.
A few changes I would make:
Tait; Sackey, Hipkiss, Geraghty, Simpson-Daniel; Cipriani, Care; Sheridan, Paice, Stevens, Shaw, Kennedy, Haskell, Moody, Easter.
Reps: Hartley, Vickery, Borthwick, Croft, Richards, Wilkinson, Brown
Now for the justification on the players i'v changed. Brown has no international experience as yet, so starting on the bench might be sensible initially. Stevens just looks more dynamic than Vickery, and has better handling skills. Hartley on the bench as I have seen little of him in action, I know you are a fan of him Stimmers but it's easy to look consistently good in Division One, lets see if he is as good in the Premiership next season (but saying all that, he looked good for the Saxons!). And Kennedy's consistent performances in the Prem deserve him a place. Richards on the bench in place of Ellis, because like you say, will only have a few game under his belt. His form against the Ospreys shows he will bounce back quickly.
Go on then Stimmers, rip all that to pieces!
BigMansZetec said:
Rob Kitsons First test XV: M Brown; Sackey, Hipkiss, Geraghty, Simpson-Daniel; Cipriani, Care; Sheridan, Hartley, Vickery (capt), Shaw, Croft, Haskell, Moody, Easter.
Reps: Paice, Stevens, Borthwick, Rees, Ellis, Wilkinson, Tait
Overall, like the look of that, and we all know that should have been the sort of team that played in the Six Nations.
A few changes I would make:
Tait; Sackey, Hipkiss, Geraghty, Simpson-Daniel; Cipriani, Care; Sheridan, Paice, Stevens, Shaw, Kennedy, Haskell, Moody, Easter.
Reps: Hartley, Vickery, Borthwick, Croft, Richards, Wilkinson, Brown
Now for the justification on the players i'v changed. Brown has no international experience as yet, so starting on the bench might be sensible initially. Stevens just looks more dynamic than Vickery, and has better handling skills. Hartley on the bench as I have seen little of him in action, I know you are a fan of him Stimmers but it's easy to look consistently good in Division One, lets see if he is as good in the Premiership next season (but saying all that, he looked good for the Saxons!). And Kennedy's consistent performances in the Prem deserve him a place. Richards on the bench in place of Ellis, because like you say, will only have a few game under his belt. His form against the Ospreys shows he will bounce back quickly.
Go on then Stimmers, rip all that to pieces!
Not rip anything to pieces, in fact here is the team below that i posted on a rugby site i use. This may not be the strongest Eng can field, but in terms of development, having a go and using the time from now till next years 6 Nations to use more players and try different combinations - i think it works. Your right about Hartley, although he did play and did well in Saints' relegation year. Same can be said for John Clarke at Saints. The guy looks the real deal at 13 and seems to have everything. I'll be watching him with interest next year.Reps: Paice, Stevens, Borthwick, Rees, Ellis, Wilkinson, Tait
Overall, like the look of that, and we all know that should have been the sort of team that played in the Six Nations.
A few changes I would make:
Tait; Sackey, Hipkiss, Geraghty, Simpson-Daniel; Cipriani, Care; Sheridan, Paice, Stevens, Shaw, Kennedy, Haskell, Moody, Easter.
Reps: Hartley, Vickery, Borthwick, Croft, Richards, Wilkinson, Brown
Now for the justification on the players i'v changed. Brown has no international experience as yet, so starting on the bench might be sensible initially. Stevens just looks more dynamic than Vickery, and has better handling skills. Hartley on the bench as I have seen little of him in action, I know you are a fan of him Stimmers but it's easy to look consistently good in Division One, lets see if he is as good in the Premiership next season (but saying all that, he looked good for the Saxons!). And Kennedy's consistent performances in the Prem deserve him a place. Richards on the bench in place of Ellis, because like you say, will only have a few game under his belt. His form against the Ospreys shows he will bounce back quickly.
Go on then Stimmers, rip all that to pieces!
Sheridan
Paice
Stevens
Shaw
Kennedy
Haskell
Rees
Easter
Care
Cipriani
Strettle if fit ??? If not Varndell
Geraghty
Hipkiss
JSD
Tait
Vickery, Hartley, Borthwick, Croft, Wigglesworth, Wilkinson, Lewsey
Stimmers
You mention not taking Ellis, yet Strettle is also in the proposed squad and still receovering from another broken Metatarsal. Lets have some consistency if somebodys fit then take them if they're not then let them stay at home and recover and give others the chance. Lets face it We have plenty of other wingers, and I'm sure Care, Wigglesworth, Richards and Perry could cope (Although to be fair I would place the last three all behind Ellis and Care).
I'm interested in your opinion of Barkley, I thought his play in the opening world cup game was top notch and was by far the best player in the an admittedly poor opening game against America, its a shame injury forced him to miss the remaining games, yes he's had some personnal issues which have stopped him from being picked for the 6N, but as long as these are resolved prior to the tour I don't see why he shouldn't go.
All that said Good selection.
You mention not taking Ellis, yet Strettle is also in the proposed squad and still receovering from another broken Metatarsal. Lets have some consistency if somebodys fit then take them if they're not then let them stay at home and recover and give others the chance. Lets face it We have plenty of other wingers, and I'm sure Care, Wigglesworth, Richards and Perry could cope (Although to be fair I would place the last three all behind Ellis and Care).
I'm interested in your opinion of Barkley, I thought his play in the opening world cup game was top notch and was by far the best player in the an admittedly poor opening game against America, its a shame injury forced him to miss the remaining games, yes he's had some personnal issues which have stopped him from being picked for the 6N, but as long as these are resolved prior to the tour I don't see why he shouldn't go.
All that said Good selection.
Northants155boy said:
Stimmers
You mention not taking Ellis, yet Strettle is also in the proposed squad and still receovering from another broken Metatarsal. Lets have some consistency if somebodys fit then take them if they're not then let them stay at home and recover and give others the chance. Lets face it We have plenty of other wingers, and I'm sure Care, Wigglesworth, Richards and Perry could cope (Although to be fair I would place the last three all behind Ellis and Care).
I'm interested in your opinion of Barkley, I thought his play in the opening world cup game was top notch and was by far the best player in the an admittedly poor opening game against America, its a shame injury forced him to miss the remaining games, yes he's had some personnal issues which have stopped him from being picked for the 6N, but as long as these are resolved prior to the tour I don't see why he shouldn't go.
All that said Good selection.
Ok, you think Strettle being out for 2-3 months with a broken metatarsel is the same as Harry being out for a year and having reconstructive surgery on his knee and having majory complcations???You mention not taking Ellis, yet Strettle is also in the proposed squad and still receovering from another broken Metatarsal. Lets have some consistency if somebodys fit then take them if they're not then let them stay at home and recover and give others the chance. Lets face it We have plenty of other wingers, and I'm sure Care, Wigglesworth, Richards and Perry could cope (Although to be fair I would place the last three all behind Ellis and Care).
I'm interested in your opinion of Barkley, I thought his play in the opening world cup game was top notch and was by far the best player in the an admittedly poor opening game against America, its a shame injury forced him to miss the remaining games, yes he's had some personnal issues which have stopped him from being picked for the 6N, but as long as these are resolved prior to the tour I don't see why he shouldn't go.
All that said Good selection.
I personally think there is a massive difference and having had an ACL injury i know how long it takes to get back playing. If Strettle had been out for a year i would question his ability to be match fit for a tour to New Zealand. So consistancy is irrelevant as the two situations are totally different. I personally see more talent in Care than any of our 9's and the biggest issue, Harry is not good enough for International rugby yet.
Barkley is a seriously light weight International Rugby player. He is a decent club player at best as his one dimensional play can get away with it . I thought his performances in the WC were appalling, him and Farrell were such a joke that i took a old man like Catt to come in to make the difference. No suprises for me that Eng played better when Barkley and Farrell were nowhere to be seen. Henson, Jauzion, D'Arcy etc would kill him. We need someone at 12 with far more talent and skill than Barkley and i believe we have those players in Allen, Flood, Geraghty and Wouldock.
Players i get mad about when picked for Eng are Balshaw, Barkley and Farrell
Well lets, hope that the England coaching team finally look to the future and pick these teams we have identified.
I would put Barkley in a group with Andy Goode and Charlie Hodgson. All seriously good club players that have, over the years put in some brilliant performances and can really run a game. However they just lacked something when its come to their chances at international level, which has stopped them becoming first choice regulars.
Barkley might have a job to do, but I would imagine just as a replacement, as he can provide useful cover at fly half and centre.
Rob, fixtures for the two test tour:
14th June - NZ v Eng (08.30) Auckland
21st June - NZ v Eng (08.30) Christchurch
I would put Barkley in a group with Andy Goode and Charlie Hodgson. All seriously good club players that have, over the years put in some brilliant performances and can really run a game. However they just lacked something when its come to their chances at international level, which has stopped them becoming first choice regulars.
Barkley might have a job to do, but I would imagine just as a replacement, as he can provide useful cover at fly half and centre.
Rob, fixtures for the two test tour:
14th June - NZ v Eng (08.30) Auckland
21st June - NZ v Eng (08.30) Christchurch
Well guess I'll be off to the Chch one, 21st June, gona be chilly, AMI stadium isnt the warmest when it gets hit with a southerly either...
hmmm I've a mate with a private box at AMI (well the company he works for) but I'm gussing its gona be buys ...
hmmm I've a mate with a private box at AMI (well the company he works for) but I'm gussing its gona be buys ...
Edited by RobDickinson on Tuesday 25th March 22:28
RobDickinson said:
gona be chilly, AMI stadium isnt the warmest when it gets hit with a southerly either...
Your not wrong, i saw Cantebury play Auckland in an NPC game and it was nearly the coldest i have been in a sporting stadium. The coldest was the house of pain in Dunedin a week later. Nearly unbearable.Edited by RobDickinson on Tuesday 25th March 22:28
Do they still have that massive Chess game in the main square in Canterbury ?
Edited by stimmers on Wednesday 26th March 00:28
Stimmers, I wasn't comparing the injuries like for like at all, my point was you said Ellis shouldn't go as he's just returned from a big injury, but LT seem to think he's recovered fully and is fit enough to start matches as he's now back playing, as you say he's been off a year recouperating and fixing building up strength and match fitness and should be ingood shape to start the series. My point was consistency in picking players recovering or having recovered from injuries the severity is irrelevant so long as the duration of recovery is sufficient. I understand however, your concern and the case for minimising the potential for injury on the back of an already long season. I'm very much in the same camp of letting the players have a rest a holiday etc to recover, i would guess though that most players would want travel if selected to represent their country.
I just hope we're not faced with the prospect of numerous players being denied the opportunity to tour by their clubs and the RFU due to the premiership final as happened against SA last year.
I just hope we're not faced with the prospect of numerous players being denied the opportunity to tour by their clubs and the RFU due to the premiership final as happened against SA last year.
Northants155boy said:
Stimmers, I wasn't comparing the injuries like for like at all, my point was you said Ellis shouldn't go as he's just returned from a big injury, but LT seem to think he's recovered fully and is fit enough to start matches as he's now back playing, as you say he's been off a year recouperating and fixing building up strength and match fitness and should be ingood shape to start the series. My point was consistency in picking players recovering or having recovered from injuries the severity is irrelevant so long as the duration of recovery is sufficient. I understand however, your concern and the case for minimising the potential for injury on the back of an already long season. I'm very much in the same camp of letting the players have a rest a holiday etc to recover, i would guess though that most players would want travel if selected to represent their country.
I just hope we're not faced with the prospect of numerous players being denied the opportunity to tour by their clubs and the RFU due to the premiership final as happened against SA last year.
Ah ok, sorry, thought you were saying the injuries were similar. The thing is, we all know what Harry Ellis is all about. We know what he can do and we know he can cut it in International rugby. The best place for him to get his match fitness and sharpness back is at Tigers, not dragging him to NZ and probably only playing him in 1 test at best. The only thing Harry has to prove is that he can get back to his best. So for me there is no point in taking Harry half way across the world.I just hope we're not faced with the prospect of numerous players being denied the opportunity to tour by their clubs and the RFU due to the premiership final as happened against SA last year.
Eng over the years miss so many opportunities for development. Why not find out more about Wigglesworth, why not expose Care to top level rugby. I went to Dubai to watch the Under 18 World Cup 2 years ago and Care (along with a Kiwi who i forget the name of) were the stand out players of the tournament. He's a massive talent.
You know we are not the only ones who send weak touring teams. The SH do it too. The big difference is is that their 2nd tier players/young players are far more competitive than our lot because their player development is light years ahead of ours. I go on about SH rugby on these boards a lot, but thats because they get basic things right, which is why they are the best teams in the world. There are hardly any foreign players in their sides, they expose players to provincial rugby early and International rugby early. Where as we have loads of over seas players in our league (and getting worse) and continue to play players who are tried, tested and average.
The developmet of our young players in England is shocking and needs to be looked at.
What I dont understand is why somethings are so self evident and simple yet dont get immediately recognised.
To me the glaringly obvious things are that the key players of the "next" England team have alerady emerged.
Hartley
Sheridan
Kennedy
Croft
Haskell
Ellis
Care
Cipriani
Wilkinson
Gerraghty
Hipkiss
Tait
Varndell
Clarke
Build your team around that lot. Yes there are obvious competitive overlaps...Care/Ellis, Cipriani/Wilkinson, the no 13 birth, but that shouldnt be insurmountable. Cipriani and Tait are certainly talented enough to play in multiple positions so do it. If we want a "new" England team then have the balls to make the calls and start moulding the new team around the guys who you think are going to be those players.
To me the glaringly obvious things are that the key players of the "next" England team have alerady emerged.
Hartley
Sheridan
Kennedy
Croft
Haskell
Ellis
Care
Cipriani
Wilkinson
Gerraghty
Hipkiss
Tait
Varndell
Clarke
Build your team around that lot. Yes there are obvious competitive overlaps...Care/Ellis, Cipriani/Wilkinson, the no 13 birth, but that shouldnt be insurmountable. Cipriani and Tait are certainly talented enough to play in multiple positions so do it. If we want a "new" England team then have the balls to make the calls and start moulding the new team around the guys who you think are going to be those players.
RobDickinson said:
stimmers said:
Do they still have that massive Chess game in the main square in Canterbury ?
Yep.Hopefully will have been snowboarding all day on the 21st so may just go in my ski gear..
1-Woodcock
2-Flynn
3-Mackintosh
4-Flavell
5-Williams
6-Collins
7-Mccaw
8-So'oialo
9-Cowan
10-Carter
11-Rokocoko
12-Brett
13-Toeava
14-Nonu
15-Macdonald
????????????????
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