The problem with the England Rugby Team?
Discussion
Ok, so despite some good results, we don't seem to be the team we used to be, what are people's views on this?
Presonally, we seem to stutter when the chips are down and the pressure is on. Looking at the team, we no longer seem to have a talisman, who will bang heads together and get people pulling together in the right direction. Over the last few years, we had Martin Johnson, Dallaligo, Neil Back, Mike Catt, Marting Corry (?), who you always felt would pull people together and get them moving in the right direction. At the moment we don't seem to have that, Vickery isn't well placed to do it, Easter is too new. Equally, you can imagine Woodward kicking people up the arse at half time, but i just can't see Ashton being the same.
What do you think?
Presonally, we seem to stutter when the chips are down and the pressure is on. Looking at the team, we no longer seem to have a talisman, who will bang heads together and get people pulling together in the right direction. Over the last few years, we had Martin Johnson, Dallaligo, Neil Back, Mike Catt, Marting Corry (?), who you always felt would pull people together and get them moving in the right direction. At the moment we don't seem to have that, Vickery isn't well placed to do it, Easter is too new. Equally, you can imagine Woodward kicking people up the arse at half time, but i just can't see Ashton being the same.
What do you think?
new blood required...
especially the coach and captain, hopefully Jake White will get the job quite soon and Ciprani will be made captain asap.
Did you see the under 20's play they are better than the senior team??
New full back and play Tait for Gods sake at outside centre. We should be the best team in the northern hemisphere, and with a few changes we could be in 2 seasons imo.
especially the coach and captain, hopefully Jake White will get the job quite soon and Ciprani will be made captain asap.
Did you see the under 20's play they are better than the senior team??
New full back and play Tait for Gods sake at outside centre. We should be the best team in the northern hemisphere, and with a few changes we could be in 2 seasons imo.
The world cup winning team of 03 was exceptional and it was in some ways fortuitous that they all peaked at exactly the same and the right time.
I agree about leadership though. Ashton is a nice bloke I'm sure but he is not a leader of men. Likewise with Vickery IMO. He's a warrior but he's no MJ. I felt the same way about Corry. We were spoiled by having MJ and Dallaglio, both talismen. How about MJ and Shaun Edwards as a management team? I'm not sure about the skipper though. Ideally we need someone who can do an MJ and be around for long enough to see through the next RWC.
I agree about leadership though. Ashton is a nice bloke I'm sure but he is not a leader of men. Likewise with Vickery IMO. He's a warrior but he's no MJ. I felt the same way about Corry. We were spoiled by having MJ and Dallaglio, both talismen. How about MJ and Shaun Edwards as a management team? I'm not sure about the skipper though. Ideally we need someone who can do an MJ and be around for long enough to see through the next RWC.
I've said this before elsewhere on here but ....
England peaked at exactly the right time in Australia with a Team that was at its strongest in terms of ability and experience. It was a settled Team but many of the Players had reached their personal best, knowing that there was no opportunity for improvement and that retirement from International Rugby was in sight.
Preparation for last years Tournament should have began 4 years previously with a mass clearout of these players and the laying of foundations to build a new Team.
It would have taken a very brave management team to do this ...
Just think of the press and public, and the howls of derision at such treatment for World Champions.
Think of the players reaction at not being allowed to bask in the glory of their achievements.
Think of the RFU and their reaction to not being able to fully exploit the England players marketing potential due to the majority of that Team no longer playing/wearing the Red Rose on match days.
But that is when the rebuilding should have began.
Ever since then the England Coaching Team has been caught between a rock and a hard place.
Someone upon high within the RFU needs to make a decision now to start building towards the next World Cup, and be prepared to sacrifice the odd game in between to experiment. At the moment I believe Ashton is almost sitting on the fence and is not able to commit in this way. It does not help that the coach's position is still fluid. The RFU should appoint a person now to go through to the next World Cup and be prepared to stand by that decision.
Whether Ashton is that man is another debate.
Personally I think that Ashton is a very good Backs coach, but not a good team manager/coach.
IMO, and looking at who is available currently, Jake White should be appointed and should be allowed to experiment as the French have done. If Edwards can be poached from Wales then he should be.
Any players who are not going to figure at the next WC should be dropped now and new blood brought in.
I think it would be beneficial to get MJ involved, but as he has no experience of coaching I do not think it would be right/fair to drop him in as the Head Man at this time.
Whoever goes in must be allowed to Manage without interference from Rob Andrew or anyone else within the RFU.
England peaked at exactly the right time in Australia with a Team that was at its strongest in terms of ability and experience. It was a settled Team but many of the Players had reached their personal best, knowing that there was no opportunity for improvement and that retirement from International Rugby was in sight.
Preparation for last years Tournament should have began 4 years previously with a mass clearout of these players and the laying of foundations to build a new Team.
It would have taken a very brave management team to do this ...
Just think of the press and public, and the howls of derision at such treatment for World Champions.
Think of the players reaction at not being allowed to bask in the glory of their achievements.
Think of the RFU and their reaction to not being able to fully exploit the England players marketing potential due to the majority of that Team no longer playing/wearing the Red Rose on match days.
But that is when the rebuilding should have began.
Ever since then the England Coaching Team has been caught between a rock and a hard place.
Someone upon high within the RFU needs to make a decision now to start building towards the next World Cup, and be prepared to sacrifice the odd game in between to experiment. At the moment I believe Ashton is almost sitting on the fence and is not able to commit in this way. It does not help that the coach's position is still fluid. The RFU should appoint a person now to go through to the next World Cup and be prepared to stand by that decision.
Whether Ashton is that man is another debate.
Personally I think that Ashton is a very good Backs coach, but not a good team manager/coach.
IMO, and looking at who is available currently, Jake White should be appointed and should be allowed to experiment as the French have done. If Edwards can be poached from Wales then he should be.
Any players who are not going to figure at the next WC should be dropped now and new blood brought in.
I think it would be beneficial to get MJ involved, but as he has no experience of coaching I do not think it would be right/fair to drop him in as the Head Man at this time.
Whoever goes in must be allowed to Manage without interference from Rob Andrew or anyone else within the RFU.
The two major problems with England rugby at the moment, in my opinion is lack of leadership on and off the field and Ashtons lack of 'balls' when it comes to team selection.
It took him 5 games to actually make a gutsy decision with Cipriani, but that was it. England need to be building a new team, not hanging on to the experienced guys, of whom will not be around at the next world cup.
Theres no shortage of talent in England at the moment, the under 20's won the grand slam, and the saxons were also unbeaten.
If Ashton is unwiling to try and develop these guys then he needs to go.
It took him 5 games to actually make a gutsy decision with Cipriani, but that was it. England need to be building a new team, not hanging on to the experienced guys, of whom will not be around at the next world cup.
Theres no shortage of talent in England at the moment, the under 20's won the grand slam, and the saxons were also unbeaten.
If Ashton is unwiling to try and develop these guys then he needs to go.
Sorry for the length of the post.
There is not one thing wrong with English rugby but many small things starting with the top and working down.
RFU versus club - should be sorted with the new club arrangements and releasing players for the whole of the tournament and not expecting them back to play for GP during rest weeks. But still the RFU needs to play far more of an active role in ensuring young English players get the correct development in the GP. And they are not kept out by cheap overseas imports.
There has been no high level RFU clearout, for years, jobs for the boys and still perceived as public school thing.
Rob Andrew, Director of elite rugby - What does he do what is his role??, I've heard all sorts of reports about his interferring with selection, either he's in charge of the england team or the whole set up not both.
Ashton not taking on his own back room staff - Ashton inherited Wells and Ford, and subsequently disagreements bewteen Ashton and Wells (forwards coach) have also been discussed on the grapevine, especially as Wells is very defensivly minded Whereas Ashton wants to play expansive rugby and needs a set of Forwards to support this.
Ashtons selection policy - Most would agree this has been bizzare in the extreme, and there is some evidence to suggest that not all selections are BA's. BA constantly states he wants to pick people who are on Form yet we still see Balshaw, Vickery and Reagan playing. Also On form does not even necerssarily mean the best in their position, For example Vainikolo, OK good impact player but there are arguements for JSD and Varndell who have both been in very good form for club.
Ashtons rolling 12 month Contract - Lets face it if he'd been given a 4 year contract over which to develop the team during that time, then he might have made some more inspried selections. As it was his survival was utterly dependant upon results, as such was he picking a team he thought could play the way he wanted or was the team picked becasue he thought he could sneak a victory and therefore survive another week /month year??
Poor on pitch tactics - Need I say more. Scotland poor kicking, poor forward display, didn't play to the conditions, Wales and Italy second half implosions, poor discipline (highest penalty count of all the nations apparently) throughout, I'm sure the list could be expanded. Where was the running rugby Ashton wanted? Seen in small patches but not enough.
Poor leadership - Links to the above really, we were told some selections were made for the leadership and experience the players offered yet at times England played like headless chickens.
Injuries - thought I'd throw this one in at the end, not an excuse really, but when in the opening game 5 first team players go off injured on top of injuries to other almost certain to have been included individuals (Ellis, Dan Ward-smith, Geraghty), it must have an effect. Some injured players now coming back into contention too late for the 6Nations but perhaps summer tours loom (Haskell, Ellis, DWS, Strettle, Moody) but what with Ashtons selections who Knows?
Unfortunatly the second place we somehow bagged in the 6N could paper the cracks sufficiently for the RFU to beleive we're heading in the right direction. This could be OK if Brian is given the time and the chance to build his own back room team and selects players according to his own policy, I suspect this won't happen, and we'll end up with the half way house affair thats been in place for the last 18 months.
Regards the s
g.
There is not one thing wrong with English rugby but many small things starting with the top and working down.
RFU versus club - should be sorted with the new club arrangements and releasing players for the whole of the tournament and not expecting them back to play for GP during rest weeks. But still the RFU needs to play far more of an active role in ensuring young English players get the correct development in the GP. And they are not kept out by cheap overseas imports.
There has been no high level RFU clearout, for years, jobs for the boys and still perceived as public school thing.
Rob Andrew, Director of elite rugby - What does he do what is his role??, I've heard all sorts of reports about his interferring with selection, either he's in charge of the england team or the whole set up not both.
Ashton not taking on his own back room staff - Ashton inherited Wells and Ford, and subsequently disagreements bewteen Ashton and Wells (forwards coach) have also been discussed on the grapevine, especially as Wells is very defensivly minded Whereas Ashton wants to play expansive rugby and needs a set of Forwards to support this.
Ashtons selection policy - Most would agree this has been bizzare in the extreme, and there is some evidence to suggest that not all selections are BA's. BA constantly states he wants to pick people who are on Form yet we still see Balshaw, Vickery and Reagan playing. Also On form does not even necerssarily mean the best in their position, For example Vainikolo, OK good impact player but there are arguements for JSD and Varndell who have both been in very good form for club.
Ashtons rolling 12 month Contract - Lets face it if he'd been given a 4 year contract over which to develop the team during that time, then he might have made some more inspried selections. As it was his survival was utterly dependant upon results, as such was he picking a team he thought could play the way he wanted or was the team picked becasue he thought he could sneak a victory and therefore survive another week /month year??
Poor on pitch tactics - Need I say more. Scotland poor kicking, poor forward display, didn't play to the conditions, Wales and Italy second half implosions, poor discipline (highest penalty count of all the nations apparently) throughout, I'm sure the list could be expanded. Where was the running rugby Ashton wanted? Seen in small patches but not enough.
Poor leadership - Links to the above really, we were told some selections were made for the leadership and experience the players offered yet at times England played like headless chickens.
Injuries - thought I'd throw this one in at the end, not an excuse really, but when in the opening game 5 first team players go off injured on top of injuries to other almost certain to have been included individuals (Ellis, Dan Ward-smith, Geraghty), it must have an effect. Some injured players now coming back into contention too late for the 6Nations but perhaps summer tours loom (Haskell, Ellis, DWS, Strettle, Moody) but what with Ashtons selections who Knows?
Unfortunatly the second place we somehow bagged in the 6N could paper the cracks sufficiently for the RFU to beleive we're heading in the right direction. This could be OK if Brian is given the time and the chance to build his own back room team and selects players according to his own policy, I suspect this won't happen, and we'll end up with the half way house affair thats been in place for the last 18 months.
Regards the s
g.unrepentant said:
The world cup winning team of 03 was exceptional and it was in some ways fortuitous that they all peaked at exactly the same and the right time.
I agree about leadership though. Ashton is a nice bloke I'm sure but he is not a leader of men. Likewise with Vickery IMO. He's a warrior but he's no MJ. I felt the same way about Corry. We were spoiled by having MJ and Dallaglio, both talismen. How about MJ and Shaun Edwards as a management team? I'm not sure about the skipper though. Ideally we need someone who can do an MJ and be around for long enough to see through the next RWC.
Agree totally with what you say re Vickery and Corry. In post match interviews they both gave the impression (to me at least) of being weak leaders. Certainly no MJ or Dayglo anyway.I agree about leadership though. Ashton is a nice bloke I'm sure but he is not a leader of men. Likewise with Vickery IMO. He's a warrior but he's no MJ. I felt the same way about Corry. We were spoiled by having MJ and Dallaglio, both talismen. How about MJ and Shaun Edwards as a management team? I'm not sure about the skipper though. Ideally we need someone who can do an MJ and be around for long enough to see through the next RWC.
...and keep your greasy mitts off Mr Edwards!
disco1 said:
kylemrushall said:
Ciprani will be made captain asap.
Are you kiddin or really on the bandwagon?
One game and he's the great white hope
There are a number of bizarre decisions BA has made;
No Josh Lewsey in the squad?
JL is very experienced at full back, and in my opinion, could be halfway towards the inspiring player the rest of the team need to feed off. Balshaw has always come across to me as being weak.
Tait
Must be wondering what he needs to do, hugely talented, yet struggles to get match time.
There are several more as well, that i can't think of right now, but where you sit there and wonder what on earth is going on. Cipriani should not be made captain. One day, perhaps, but not any time soon. He needs to get his game sorted first, one start does not make him a legend. He has shown weak areas of his game at an international level and he needs to be able to concentrate on this rather than captaining a side. There are many players who have been very, very good at club level but failed to make it on the interntaional scene, Henry Paul and Oli Smith are two who spring to mind. Cipriani needs time to develop into his role. Also, i think there's still too much pushing and shoving with regards to who is th preferred 10. Jonny has not been on form, but, experience would suggest, that he will go away from this and work endlessly on those areas of his game he needs to sort out. Could he come back as an inside centre? Perhaps, would be very good having two kickers there, and having a centre partnership of Wilko and Noon would make it a pretty strong defensive line.
But, with players from the last world cup berating BA for his management and coaching and the constant question marks over him, a decision needs to be made. Personally, i would like to see Rob Andrew take on the mangement role with Ashton in a backs coaching position, as i believe this is what suits him. Also, bringing someone like MJ in as a coach i think would bring some inspiration to a side who have been sadly lacking recently.
No Josh Lewsey in the squad?
JL is very experienced at full back, and in my opinion, could be halfway towards the inspiring player the rest of the team need to feed off. Balshaw has always come across to me as being weak.
Tait
Must be wondering what he needs to do, hugely talented, yet struggles to get match time.
There are several more as well, that i can't think of right now, but where you sit there and wonder what on earth is going on. Cipriani should not be made captain. One day, perhaps, but not any time soon. He needs to get his game sorted first, one start does not make him a legend. He has shown weak areas of his game at an international level and he needs to be able to concentrate on this rather than captaining a side. There are many players who have been very, very good at club level but failed to make it on the interntaional scene, Henry Paul and Oli Smith are two who spring to mind. Cipriani needs time to develop into his role. Also, i think there's still too much pushing and shoving with regards to who is th preferred 10. Jonny has not been on form, but, experience would suggest, that he will go away from this and work endlessly on those areas of his game he needs to sort out. Could he come back as an inside centre? Perhaps, would be very good having two kickers there, and having a centre partnership of Wilko and Noon would make it a pretty strong defensive line.
But, with players from the last world cup berating BA for his management and coaching and the constant question marks over him, a decision needs to be made. Personally, i would like to see Rob Andrew take on the mangement role with Ashton in a backs coaching position, as i believe this is what suits him. Also, bringing someone like MJ in as a coach i think would bring some inspiration to a side who have been sadly lacking recently.
kylemrushall said:
disco1 said:
kylemrushall said:
Ciprani will be made captain asap.
Are you kiddin or really on the bandwagon?
One game and he's the great white hope
Greenie said:
kylemrushall said:
disco1 said:
kylemrushall said:
Ciprani will be made captain asap.
Are you kiddin or really on the bandwagon?
One game and he's the great white hope
To make Cipriani captian now would be madness! he has made one appearance against a pack going backwards an quick frankly my mum could have played number 10 for England on Saturday and made a decent fist of it. Assuming he keeps the jersey the next game he will play wil be against NZ and we'll get a better idea of his international credentials. Having said that I can certainly see the attraction of Cipriani at 10 with JW at 12, much the way that JW played at 10 with Catt outside him. That could make a really good combination.
As for the problems, my views are:
1. We have to stop comparing to the 2003 team. That was a really special team when just about all 15 peaked at once. Funnily enough that peak wasnt the world cup, it was the tour 3 months before when they beat NZ in NZ and thrashed Australia in Melbourne by running them off the pitch. I Was there that night and even th emost ardent Aussie admitted that England were good. That tour made the Southern Hemisphere sides realise that England were favourites.
2. Vickery can't be captain, I'm not sure you can captain from the front row. I'd be looking at someone from the back row, and if a young captain is needed ala Carling, I'd look at Haskell or Croft, certainly they are in a much better position to read the game. Again constant comparison to Martin Johnson isnt useful as he was a one off!
3. Coaching set up, sort it out and get it nailed down. If its Jake White then get him and let him get going. Also, go and get Shaun Edwards, he was pretty clear on Saturday not to completely commit to Wales. If England came knocking with a decent offer I'm near certain he'd leave Wales.
4. Motivation. I do really think that England have a problem at the moment. It was clear in the France game that they were up for it and had a plan, that was completely lacking in all games other than the Ireland game and whilst the England performance was OK, Ireland were shocking - vvvvv bad, so it is difficult to judge. The team need to be up and motivated for all the games, I'm not sure they are at present.
As for the problems, my views are:
1. We have to stop comparing to the 2003 team. That was a really special team when just about all 15 peaked at once. Funnily enough that peak wasnt the world cup, it was the tour 3 months before when they beat NZ in NZ and thrashed Australia in Melbourne by running them off the pitch. I Was there that night and even th emost ardent Aussie admitted that England were good. That tour made the Southern Hemisphere sides realise that England were favourites.
2. Vickery can't be captain, I'm not sure you can captain from the front row. I'd be looking at someone from the back row, and if a young captain is needed ala Carling, I'd look at Haskell or Croft, certainly they are in a much better position to read the game. Again constant comparison to Martin Johnson isnt useful as he was a one off!
3. Coaching set up, sort it out and get it nailed down. If its Jake White then get him and let him get going. Also, go and get Shaun Edwards, he was pretty clear on Saturday not to completely commit to Wales. If England came knocking with a decent offer I'm near certain he'd leave Wales.
4. Motivation. I do really think that England have a problem at the moment. It was clear in the France game that they were up for it and had a plan, that was completely lacking in all games other than the Ireland game and whilst the England performance was OK, Ireland were shocking - vvvvv bad, so it is difficult to judge. The team need to be up and motivated for all the games, I'm not sure they are at present.
Twit said:
3. Coaching set up, sort it out and get it nailed down. If its Jake White then get him and let him get going. Also, go and get Shaun Edwards, he was pretty clear on Saturday not to completely commit to Wales. If England came knocking with a decent offer I'm near certain he'd leave Wales.
I'll wager a tenner with you that Shaun Edwards signs to Wales up to and including the World cup.Twit said:
Also, go and get Shaun Edwards, he was pretty clear on Saturday not to completely commit to Wales. If England came knocking with a decent offer I'm near certain he'd leave Wales.
"I'm staying with Wales, end of story" seems pretty emphatic to me.http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/03/17/im_st...
TheGreatSoprendo said:
Twit said:
Also, go and get Shaun Edwards, he was pretty clear on Saturday not to completely commit to Wales. If England came knocking with a decent offer I'm near certain he'd leave Wales.
"I'm staying with Wales, end of story" seems pretty emphatic to me.http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/03/17/im_st...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/spo...
So they will be too busy for England as well
i cant help but think that BA sn't picking the strongest leaders he could do because ne knows they will take over as they did at the RWC. Having said that i don't know who could lead so perhaps he just doesn't have any potential candidates!
as a front row player i don't think it is possible to be captain- you have your head down far too much. You need a halfback ideally- anything from 6 to 10 is good.
Why is Baron still in his job and how does me manage to shift blame ALL the time? He needs to leave NOW.
To write JW off and say cipriani is th way forward is foolish- JW has that vital spark whcih builds the team together- not sure if anyone else noticed but the majority of the points after saturday came when JW came on- the team calmed down, played well. One of the trys only occurred because of split second timing by JW (drew 2 men in and created space outside)- its what we've been missing. Personally i'd love to See Cipriani at 10, JW at 12 and noon at 13- we'd have a hell of a defensive line and the hands and skills to be seriously dangerous in open play. Still not happy with our wingers- Big les just hasn't made the impression hoped- hes no Jason Robinson. Full back remains a problem if they keep picking Balshaw.
as a front row player i don't think it is possible to be captain- you have your head down far too much. You need a halfback ideally- anything from 6 to 10 is good.
Why is Baron still in his job and how does me manage to shift blame ALL the time? He needs to leave NOW.
To write JW off and say cipriani is th way forward is foolish- JW has that vital spark whcih builds the team together- not sure if anyone else noticed but the majority of the points after saturday came when JW came on- the team calmed down, played well. One of the trys only occurred because of split second timing by JW (drew 2 men in and created space outside)- its what we've been missing. Personally i'd love to See Cipriani at 10, JW at 12 and noon at 13- we'd have a hell of a defensive line and the hands and skills to be seriously dangerous in open play. Still not happy with our wingers- Big les just hasn't made the impression hoped- hes no Jason Robinson. Full back remains a problem if they keep picking Balshaw.
Somebody else mentioning Tom Croft 
Yep, if we want a new young England Captain...select Tom Croft and build a team round him. A back row of Croft @ 6, Moody @ 7 and Haskell @ 8 would be a back row to scare the hell out of any other unit, esp. playing a fast roaming, scavenging game.
I would be interested in seeing a back line of Ellis, JW, Tait, Hipkiss, Cipriani with Sackey and Sinbad on the wings. That could be interesting, esp with Josh, Noon, big Les and Varndell on the bench to make an impact.
Yep, if we want a new young England Captain...select Tom Croft and build a team round him. A back row of Croft @ 6, Moody @ 7 and Haskell @ 8 would be a back row to scare the hell out of any other unit, esp. playing a fast roaming, scavenging game.
I would be interested in seeing a back line of Ellis, JW, Tait, Hipkiss, Cipriani with Sackey and Sinbad on the wings. That could be interesting, esp with Josh, Noon, big Les and Varndell on the bench to make an impact.
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