Vote for your player of the Six Nations
Discussion
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Personally I'm torn between Clerc, Blair, Williams, Jones and Parisse...
Personally I'm torn between Clerc, Blair, Williams, Jones and Parisse...
dickymint said:
Shane Williams will walk it!
Probably, but for the wrong reasons. Just like Wilkinson won Sports Personality after the 2003 WC, when Johnson, Hill, Woodman and Greenwood were more deserving.It really does annoy me when try scorers get all the plaudits simply becaue they get more attention and media than other players who are doing far more important work.
stimmers said:
dickymint said:
Shane Williams will walk it!
Probably, but for the wrong reasons. Just like Wilkinson won Sports Personality after the 2003 WC, when Johnson, Hill, Woodman and Greenwood were more deserving.It really does annoy me when try scorers get all the plaudits simply becaue they get more attention and media than other players who are doing far more important work.
Williams has an allround game unlike jonny drop goal.
Unfortunately for Wales they have wasted his best years, i.e. the last 4, by the rest of them not being upto his standards. Wales look markedly better because the rest of the team have upped their work rates to match his, which means that he has been given freedom to up his own workrate even more. Rather than covering for others, he has been given the freedom to attack the opposition and out work them. Basically put, he has been able to out-McCaw Ritchie McCaw!
The other guy who has really impressed me, esp in the latter stages of the Championship has been Lee Bryne...his defending and his takes under the high ball have been exceptional. Right now he and Geordan Murphy are level pegged for the Lions test slot. It would/should of course be a 3 way battle with Josh, but Ashton is determined to ruin his international career.
Lion wings? I have a sneaking feeling it may well be determined by who goes as Lions coach, but baring injuries I wouldnt be shocked if the starting 2 were Shane and Varndell. Can Mark Jones stay injury free? Will Sackey stay flavour the month? Will Sinbad ever be injury free for a major international series? Can the Lamont brothers recover their top form and fitness?
Centre...Henson/Tait? Henson/Noon? Henson/Tindall? I would quite enjoy seeing Henson and Hipkiss play together, I think that could produce some interesting midfield fun. Shanklin has a fair run at this position, but I think he might fall into the same trap as Noon, a bash-em up player, but not as good/experienced/useful as Tinders at that role. With Henson as the quality inside man though, I think a more insightful/attacking minded coach may well look at a more flair player outside him to make use of the angles and gaps he opens up...hence Tait or Hipkiss, who also gives you the option of a strength player.
Philips has scrum half nailed down right now, but Ellis has to come back to full fitness and form. They will be the 2 Lions scrum halves though, unless Peel can recapture his best form.
Fly half? Yeah right, like anybody could pick the starting Lions fly half at the moment! Hook/Cipriani/Wilkinson... It wont be Stephen Jones or Ronan though! Maybe even Chris Paterson, a highly underrated player in my humble.
Pack?
Beast, Tom Croft, Haskell, Ryan Jones + 4 others, none of whom have laid down any worthwhile markers. If Martin Williams makes himself available and if his form and fitness are still top draw then he is an automatic choice, but those are *all* big ifs to say right now. Comming back from retirement to play the European Championship is one thing, buggering off to South Africa for a Lions tour is quite another! None of the current Home Nations Locks are a match for the Saffers...the WC Final prooved the English arent. The Welsh boys certainly arent, though AW-J has the look of somebody who could mature into a genuine world class player. PoC has declined from the player he was over the last cpl of yrs when he arguably could claim to be as good as Matfield and Donecha hasnt moved his game forward to really challenge at the top level. My personal inclination would be to have a look at Skivington, Kennedy and Jim Hamilton. Kennedy is a lineout specialist and could conceivably challenge Matfield in the air, whilst Skivington and Hamilton are right old big buggers, would could pull off the Jonno "we arent backing down for anybody" physical threat trick.
T'other prop and hooker? None of the first choice home nations hookers are top draw material. Again Id go slightly leftfield and see what Dylan Hartley does over the next 12 months. From what Ive seen of him so far, he looks class. The other prop? Dont know who to pick, all I know is that it shouldnt be Vickery because he isnt the Raging Bull of old.
We are too far away to call the Lions properly and Scotland and Ireland really need to contribute some players, otherwise it is going to be a too heavily weighted Welsh and England squad. PoC needs to get back to his best and Tommy Bowe needs to be how another season of consistent good play to both challenge for a starting test place. The Lamont brothers and Paterson are Scotland's best prospects, but I do like the look of Jim Hamilton at Lock.
The other guy who has really impressed me, esp in the latter stages of the Championship has been Lee Bryne...his defending and his takes under the high ball have been exceptional. Right now he and Geordan Murphy are level pegged for the Lions test slot. It would/should of course be a 3 way battle with Josh, but Ashton is determined to ruin his international career.
Lion wings? I have a sneaking feeling it may well be determined by who goes as Lions coach, but baring injuries I wouldnt be shocked if the starting 2 were Shane and Varndell. Can Mark Jones stay injury free? Will Sackey stay flavour the month? Will Sinbad ever be injury free for a major international series? Can the Lamont brothers recover their top form and fitness?
Centre...Henson/Tait? Henson/Noon? Henson/Tindall? I would quite enjoy seeing Henson and Hipkiss play together, I think that could produce some interesting midfield fun. Shanklin has a fair run at this position, but I think he might fall into the same trap as Noon, a bash-em up player, but not as good/experienced/useful as Tinders at that role. With Henson as the quality inside man though, I think a more insightful/attacking minded coach may well look at a more flair player outside him to make use of the angles and gaps he opens up...hence Tait or Hipkiss, who also gives you the option of a strength player.
Philips has scrum half nailed down right now, but Ellis has to come back to full fitness and form. They will be the 2 Lions scrum halves though, unless Peel can recapture his best form.
Fly half? Yeah right, like anybody could pick the starting Lions fly half at the moment! Hook/Cipriani/Wilkinson... It wont be Stephen Jones or Ronan though! Maybe even Chris Paterson, a highly underrated player in my humble.
Pack?
Beast, Tom Croft, Haskell, Ryan Jones + 4 others, none of whom have laid down any worthwhile markers. If Martin Williams makes himself available and if his form and fitness are still top draw then he is an automatic choice, but those are *all* big ifs to say right now. Comming back from retirement to play the European Championship is one thing, buggering off to South Africa for a Lions tour is quite another! None of the current Home Nations Locks are a match for the Saffers...the WC Final prooved the English arent. The Welsh boys certainly arent, though AW-J has the look of somebody who could mature into a genuine world class player. PoC has declined from the player he was over the last cpl of yrs when he arguably could claim to be as good as Matfield and Donecha hasnt moved his game forward to really challenge at the top level. My personal inclination would be to have a look at Skivington, Kennedy and Jim Hamilton. Kennedy is a lineout specialist and could conceivably challenge Matfield in the air, whilst Skivington and Hamilton are right old big buggers, would could pull off the Jonno "we arent backing down for anybody" physical threat trick.
T'other prop and hooker? None of the first choice home nations hookers are top draw material. Again Id go slightly leftfield and see what Dylan Hartley does over the next 12 months. From what Ive seen of him so far, he looks class. The other prop? Dont know who to pick, all I know is that it shouldnt be Vickery because he isnt the Raging Bull of old.
We are too far away to call the Lions properly and Scotland and Ireland really need to contribute some players, otherwise it is going to be a too heavily weighted Welsh and England squad. PoC needs to get back to his best and Tommy Bowe needs to be how another season of consistent good play to both challenge for a starting test place. The Lamont brothers and Paterson are Scotland's best prospects, but I do like the look of Jim Hamilton at Lock.
DJC said:
...It wont be Stephen Jones...
I agreed with a lot of what you said, right up until this point.Jones came on as a substitute for Hook in two games in the Championship when Wales were either trailing or underperforming. In both of those instances he excerted his influence/class/experience on the game to provide structure for the backline, and ultimately turned them both into good victories. There is no other flyhalf in the British Isles (Hook, Cipriani and Wilko included, despite their merits) who is capable of that, and to not take Jones on the basis that he has faltered slightly under heavy competition/criticism would be a ridiculous decision!
ETA: As for the original question - Shane Williams is possibly the most dangerous running back in World Rugby at present, and to dismiss his performances as 'being in the right place at the right time' shows a complete ignorance of the game. However, as a Number 8 myself I thoroughly respect the job that Ryan Jones has done throughout the championships, not only around his personal game, but also his team captaincy.
Edited by Dave200 on Monday 17th March 14:50
Dave200 said:
DJC said:
...It wont be Stephen Jones...
I agreed with a lot of what you said, right up until this point.Jones came on as a substitute for Hook in two games in the Championship when Wales were either trailing or underperforming. In both of those instances he excerted his influence/class/experience on the game to provide structure for the backline, and ultimately turned them both into good victories. There is no other flyhalf in the British Isles (Hook, Cipriani and Wilko included, despite their merits) who is capable of that, and to not take Jones on the basis that he has faltered slightly under heavy competition/criticism would be a ridiculous decision!
ETA: As for the original question - Shane Williams is possibly the most dangerous running back in World Rugby at present, and to dismiss his performances as 'being in the right place at the right time' shows a complete ignorance of the game. However, as a Number 8 myself I thoroughly respect the job that Ryan Jones has done throughout the championships, not only around his personal game, but also his team captaincy.
Edited by Dave200 on Monday 17th March 14:50
Correct about shane, being in the right place at the right time is a skill in its own right, it proves he can read a game and anticipate where he will need to be to be effective. Justin Marshall stated last night he has never seen a better player on his feet in is whole career.
Also, DJC - You are missing one important point your assessment of the home nations front rows. Arguably, France and Italy had the most fearsome front 3s in the championship, however both were comprehensively turned inside-out in the set-piece and beaten back all over the park by a returning-to-form Gethin Jenkins and a fit-again Adam Jones. Alun Wyn-Jones was exceptional around the park, and Mr 50-caps Gough is in the form of his life and could potentially be the Martin-Johnson-esque nasty-b*stard/enforcer that so many of us crave in a Lions pack.
I think that Wales' pack performance had a lot more depth than many observers would give it credit for. Personally, I am looking forward to the South Africa tour, given that we are likely to be going in as supreme underdogs, which has always suited us perfectly.
I think that Wales' pack performance had a lot more depth than many observers would give it credit for. Personally, I am looking forward to the South Africa tour, given that we are likely to be going in as supreme underdogs, which has always suited us perfectly.
Edited by Dave200 on Monday 17th March 16:59
Goddam it...what is it about Welsh supporters that as soon they get half decent performances they suddenly trumpet their players as the be all and end all?
Gethin Jenkins had the potential to be bloody brilliant 4 yrs ago and has gone precisely nowhere since. You can argue about a "return to form" but, what form? The form of 4 yrs ago? Well he aint on that form and even if he was 4 yrs ago isnt good enough because the world has moved on. To cut a long story short...he isnt good enough to beat the Saffers front row. The home nations have one WC prop in WC form and that is Sheridan, but unfortunately we need 2 other front row men and we dont have them yet. Im under no illusions that Vickery is the right man, he isnt. Like Jenkins he could be said to be playing back to some kind of form, but what form is that? At best it is "good enough for the 6N" form, but that wasnt the old Raging Bull form of 2003 and before when he was good enough to take apart any scrum in the world and that is what we will need in SA. Not to mention Jenkins plays the same position and nobody outside of Wales would select Jenkins before Sheridan.
As regards Stephen Jones...I didnt say not take him, I said the Test no 10. I can well see Jones controlling the midweek Lions, but not the Test team. He isnt WC, he never has been WC and he never will be. Hook though has some true Welsh gold dust sprinkled on him, that boy can become WC to challenge Dan the Man.
Ian Gough isnt and never will be Martin Johnson, you can forget that one right now. Victor Matfield is *not* going to look at Gough and worry. He just isnt. AW-J...now ive already said I think he could become a proper WC Lock, he is athletic, talented, ambitious and plays the game to win. With another season of learning, developing and playing at the top level then I can see him challenging for a test berth in SA. Ive already said I dont think anybody has done much to even put a starting hand on one of the Test Lock places yet, certainly none of the English boys, the Irish boys have gone backwards, so why not AW-J? The Lions invariably through up dark horse picks and I suspect Lock could be an area where it happens again.
Gethin Jenkins had the potential to be bloody brilliant 4 yrs ago and has gone precisely nowhere since. You can argue about a "return to form" but, what form? The form of 4 yrs ago? Well he aint on that form and even if he was 4 yrs ago isnt good enough because the world has moved on. To cut a long story short...he isnt good enough to beat the Saffers front row. The home nations have one WC prop in WC form and that is Sheridan, but unfortunately we need 2 other front row men and we dont have them yet. Im under no illusions that Vickery is the right man, he isnt. Like Jenkins he could be said to be playing back to some kind of form, but what form is that? At best it is "good enough for the 6N" form, but that wasnt the old Raging Bull form of 2003 and before when he was good enough to take apart any scrum in the world and that is what we will need in SA. Not to mention Jenkins plays the same position and nobody outside of Wales would select Jenkins before Sheridan.
As regards Stephen Jones...I didnt say not take him, I said the Test no 10. I can well see Jones controlling the midweek Lions, but not the Test team. He isnt WC, he never has been WC and he never will be. Hook though has some true Welsh gold dust sprinkled on him, that boy can become WC to challenge Dan the Man.
Ian Gough isnt and never will be Martin Johnson, you can forget that one right now. Victor Matfield is *not* going to look at Gough and worry. He just isnt. AW-J...now ive already said I think he could become a proper WC Lock, he is athletic, talented, ambitious and plays the game to win. With another season of learning, developing and playing at the top level then I can see him challenging for a test berth in SA. Ive already said I dont think anybody has done much to even put a starting hand on one of the Test Lock places yet, certainly none of the English boys, the Irish boys have gone backwards, so why not AW-J? The Lions invariably through up dark horse picks and I suspect Lock could be an area where it happens again.
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