I'm seriously considering defecting to egg chasing
Discussion
Following on from another shocking England (football) performance I'm giving real consideration to the 'dark side'. I have followed football properly since Euro 96 and can count the number of Rugby games I have watched start to finish on both hands (no toes needed).
My general appathy for football is due to so many factors - the chav fans, the hooligan element, the huge wages, the new breed of foreign investment, the stupidity and vulgarness of the majority of the top players (I particularly hate the Ferdinand brothers) and their plastic 'wags'
I have put up with this due to the lack of alternative, but I have genuinely enjoyed this (Rugby) World Cup
Some of the things I prefer about Rugby - The better class of fans, so amicable that they can sit together without police division, the fact that the ref can wear a microphone at 4 o'clock in the afternoon without fear of
having to'bleep' every word out of the players mouth's
As a football fan I was embarassed by the influx of football fans watching on Saturday night, bringing with them bigotry, racism and a general lack of decency. A chant of 'we all hate France, I say we all hate France' along with the 'No surrender' songs
Am I wrong, is anybody with me or can someone convince me of the merits of the 'beautiful game'?
My general appathy for football is due to so many factors - the chav fans, the hooligan element, the huge wages, the new breed of foreign investment, the stupidity and vulgarness of the majority of the top players (I particularly hate the Ferdinand brothers) and their plastic 'wags'
I have put up with this due to the lack of alternative, but I have genuinely enjoyed this (Rugby) World Cup
Some of the things I prefer about Rugby - The better class of fans, so amicable that they can sit together without police division, the fact that the ref can wear a microphone at 4 o'clock in the afternoon without fear of
having to'bleep' every word out of the players mouth's
As a football fan I was embarassed by the influx of football fans watching on Saturday night, bringing with them bigotry, racism and a general lack of decency. A chant of 'we all hate France, I say we all hate France' along with the 'No surrender' songs
Am I wrong, is anybody with me or can someone convince me of the merits of the 'beautiful game'?
you're not wrong
it's a lovely game that requires the deftest of touches and the most amazing levels of stamina
unfortunately it's now played by tosser wankboys, watched by too many single minded sheep like thugs, and dominated by the drive for money.
It's jthe "bling" of the sporting world.
i for one will now only watch my local youth sides, and even then the parents are totally lacking in moral fortitude, sportsmanship or a sense of fair play.
it'as enough to make a grown man cry.
it's a lovely game that requires the deftest of touches and the most amazing levels of stamina
unfortunately it's now played by tosser wankboys, watched by too many single minded sheep like thugs, and dominated by the drive for money.
It's jthe "bling" of the sporting world.
i for one will now only watch my local youth sides, and even then the parents are totally lacking in moral fortitude, sportsmanship or a sense of fair play.
it'as enough to make a grown man cry.
Kermit power said:
You forgot to mention that if you go to a Rugby match, not only do the fans sit together, you can also take your beers onto the stand with you. Twickenham, for example, just limits you to buying a maximum of 4 pints at a time to keep the queues flowing. 
I've been a footy fan for almost 40 years and have to say I much prefer rugby these days!
Snowman23 said:
Following on from another shocking England (football) performance I'm giving real consideration to the 'dark side'. I have followed football properly since Euro 96 and can count the number of Rugby games I have watched start to finish on both hands (no toes needed).
Yes, it was shocking, but did you expect anything else? England haven't had a 'good' team since '96
My general appathy for football is due to so many factors - the chav fans, the hooligan element, the huge wages, the new breed of foreign investment, the stupidity and vulgarness of the majority of the top players (I particularly hate the Ferdinand brothers) and their plastic 'wags'
Vulgarness of top players? Not sure about that. Diving, etc, needs to be stamped out, and quickly with bans, fines for club, and docked points for repeating clubs, etc. You 'Hate' the Ferdinand brothers, and their wag wives. What does that have to do with football? And isns't hate a touch too strong?
I have put up with this due to the lack of alternative, but I have genuinely enjoyed this (Rugby) World Cup
From the limited coverage we've had here it has been good! Especially the Australia game, whereby I thought we would get pummelled!!!
Some of the things I prefer about Rugby - The better class of fans, so amicable that they can sit together without police division, the fact that the ref can wear a microphone at 4 o'clock in the afternoon without fear of having to'bleep' every word out of the players mouth's
Oh, there is that class thing again... I think you'll find most Rugby fans are working class, normal people, the same as the majority of football fans. However, coverage of the football minority is over the top, and the idiots at rugby matches get no coverage at all. Idiots exist, it is not the fault of the many.
As a football fan I was embarassed by the influx of football fans watching on Saturday night, bringing with them bigotry, racism and a general lack of decency. A chant of 'we all hate France, I say we all hate France' along with the 'No surrender' songs
You don't read much of the jingoism on PH then do you. Cheese eating surrender monkeys, and Frogs, and even the Yank abuser posts are a regular occurence. maybe PH isn't for you!
Am I wrong, is anybody with me or can someone convince me of the merits of the 'beautiful game'?
It is a beautiful game. However, the lack of action on the part of the FA has meant diving is getting much more prevelent, in the same way cheating exists in all forms of sport, (yes, even rugby). The fact is that should a player be fouled in the penalty area, and stays on his feet, odd are he won't get the penalty he deserves, so it 'pays' to go down in a foul. The players are at fault for this, yes, but the FA needs to get a grip of it.
Luckily for me I like both rugby, AND football, (yes, it is possible, folks)... They are not exclusive of each other. You don't have to like one OR the other.Yes, it was shocking, but did you expect anything else? England haven't had a 'good' team since '96
My general appathy for football is due to so many factors - the chav fans, the hooligan element, the huge wages, the new breed of foreign investment, the stupidity and vulgarness of the majority of the top players (I particularly hate the Ferdinand brothers) and their plastic 'wags'
Vulgarness of top players? Not sure about that. Diving, etc, needs to be stamped out, and quickly with bans, fines for club, and docked points for repeating clubs, etc. You 'Hate' the Ferdinand brothers, and their wag wives. What does that have to do with football? And isns't hate a touch too strong?
I have put up with this due to the lack of alternative, but I have genuinely enjoyed this (Rugby) World Cup
From the limited coverage we've had here it has been good! Especially the Australia game, whereby I thought we would get pummelled!!!
Some of the things I prefer about Rugby - The better class of fans, so amicable that they can sit together without police division, the fact that the ref can wear a microphone at 4 o'clock in the afternoon without fear of having to'bleep' every word out of the players mouth's
Oh, there is that class thing again... I think you'll find most Rugby fans are working class, normal people, the same as the majority of football fans. However, coverage of the football minority is over the top, and the idiots at rugby matches get no coverage at all. Idiots exist, it is not the fault of the many.
As a football fan I was embarassed by the influx of football fans watching on Saturday night, bringing with them bigotry, racism and a general lack of decency. A chant of 'we all hate France, I say we all hate France' along with the 'No surrender' songs
You don't read much of the jingoism on PH then do you. Cheese eating surrender monkeys, and Frogs, and even the Yank abuser posts are a regular occurence. maybe PH isn't for you!
Am I wrong, is anybody with me or can someone convince me of the merits of the 'beautiful game'?
It is a beautiful game. However, the lack of action on the part of the FA has meant diving is getting much more prevelent, in the same way cheating exists in all forms of sport, (yes, even rugby). The fact is that should a player be fouled in the penalty area, and stays on his feet, odd are he won't get the penalty he deserves, so it 'pays' to go down in a foul. The players are at fault for this, yes, but the FA needs to get a grip of it.
Get your point about the footy but we have to get over the fact that we are not *that* good any more even at European level, never mind world level.
It won't bother me one jot if we don't qualify. Why? Because then we will be spared the endless built-up before the tournament - the 10-12 pages in the press every day about every little facet of the players, the wives and all the activities both on and off the pitch and the disappointment when we again fail to progress into the last eight, or four.
The rest of Europe (and the world) have caught up over the last fifteen years and we have to deal with it.
Oh, and the Ferdinands are cousins I think, not brothers ...
It won't bother me one jot if we don't qualify. Why? Because then we will be spared the endless built-up before the tournament - the 10-12 pages in the press every day about every little facet of the players, the wives and all the activities both on and off the pitch and the disappointment when we again fail to progress into the last eight, or four.
The rest of Europe (and the world) have caught up over the last fifteen years and we have to deal with it.
Oh, and the Ferdinands are cousins I think, not brothers ...
Blue Meanie said:
Snowman23 said:
Following on from another shocking England (football) performance I'm giving real consideration to the 'dark side'. I have followed football properly since Euro 96 and can count the number of Rugby games I have watched start to finish on both hands (no toes needed).
Yes, it was shocking, but did you expect anything else? England haven't had a 'good' team since '96
No I didn't expect anything else, our media build the players up with many average players being constantly referred to as 'World Class'
My general appathy for football is due to so many factors - the chav fans, the hooligan element, the huge wages, the new breed of foreign investment, the stupidity and vulgarness of the majority of the top players (I particularly hate the Ferdinand brothers) and their plastic 'wags'
Vulgarness of top players? Not sure about that. Diving, etc, needs to be stamped out, and quickly with bans, fines for club, and docked points for repeating clubs, etc. You 'Hate' the Ferdinand brothers, and their wag wives. What does that have to do with football? And isns't hate a touch too strong?
How are Hummers with 28'' wheels not Vulgar ? Wrought iron gates with initials in not Vulgar ? Whilst the off pitch antics shouldn't affect my thinking about football as a whole, having them plastered all over the media makes it hard to ignore. Harsh to hate Ferdinand ? Didn't you see that awful wind up programme he did before the world cup ? You've been merked !!
I have put up with this due to the lack of alternative, but I have genuinely enjoyed this (Rugby) World Cup
From the limited coverage we've had here it has been good! Especially the Australia game, whereby I thought we would get pummelled!!!
Always nice to beat the aussies at anything
Some of the things I prefer about Rugby - The better class of fans, so amicable that they can sit together without police division, the fact that the ref can wear a microphone at 4 o'clock in the afternoon without fear of having to'bleep' every word out of the players mouth's
Oh, there is that class thing again... I think you'll find most Rugby fans are working class, normal people, the same as the majority of football fans. However, coverage of the football minority is over the top, and the idiots at rugby matches get no coverage at all. Idiots exist, it is not the fault of the many.
I understand what your saying, and is probably more of a perception thing. I lived across the road from Headingly for 2 years and saw plenty of idiots at the Rhinos games.
As a football fan I was embarassed by the influx of football fans watching on Saturday night, bringing with them bigotry, racism and a general lack of decency. A chant of 'we all hate France, I say we all hate France' along with the 'No surrender' songs
You don't read much of the jingoism on PH then do you. Cheese eating surrender monkeys, and Frogs, and even the Yank abuser posts are a regular occurence. maybe PH isn't for you!
I think having a bit of a rant amongst like minded people never did anybody any harm, but inflicting your (slighty xenophobic) views on a pub full of people trying to celebrate a fantastic victory is a bit out of order in my book
Am I wrong, is anybody with me or can someone convince me of the merits of the 'beautiful game'?
It is a beautiful game. However, the lack of action on the part of the FA has meant diving is getting much more prevelent, in the same way cheating exists in all forms of sport, (yes, even rugby). The fact is that should a player be fouled in the penalty area, and stays on his feet, odd are he won't get the penalty he deserves, so it 'pays' to go down in a foul. The players are at fault for this, yes, but the FA needs to get a grip of it.
Simulation is a massive problem, I agree that the FA need to get to grips with it. I also believe clubs, fans and players need to stop 'not caring' when the benefit from a blatent dive. For example if Joe Cole had gone down in the box after a dive, I couldn't have cared less, and yet I know that it should !Yes, it was shocking, but did you expect anything else? England haven't had a 'good' team since '96
No I didn't expect anything else, our media build the players up with many average players being constantly referred to as 'World Class'
My general appathy for football is due to so many factors - the chav fans, the hooligan element, the huge wages, the new breed of foreign investment, the stupidity and vulgarness of the majority of the top players (I particularly hate the Ferdinand brothers) and their plastic 'wags'
Vulgarness of top players? Not sure about that. Diving, etc, needs to be stamped out, and quickly with bans, fines for club, and docked points for repeating clubs, etc. You 'Hate' the Ferdinand brothers, and their wag wives. What does that have to do with football? And isns't hate a touch too strong?
How are Hummers with 28'' wheels not Vulgar ? Wrought iron gates with initials in not Vulgar ? Whilst the off pitch antics shouldn't affect my thinking about football as a whole, having them plastered all over the media makes it hard to ignore. Harsh to hate Ferdinand ? Didn't you see that awful wind up programme he did before the world cup ? You've been merked !!
I have put up with this due to the lack of alternative, but I have genuinely enjoyed this (Rugby) World Cup
From the limited coverage we've had here it has been good! Especially the Australia game, whereby I thought we would get pummelled!!!
Always nice to beat the aussies at anything
Some of the things I prefer about Rugby - The better class of fans, so amicable that they can sit together without police division, the fact that the ref can wear a microphone at 4 o'clock in the afternoon without fear of having to'bleep' every word out of the players mouth's
Oh, there is that class thing again... I think you'll find most Rugby fans are working class, normal people, the same as the majority of football fans. However, coverage of the football minority is over the top, and the idiots at rugby matches get no coverage at all. Idiots exist, it is not the fault of the many.
I understand what your saying, and is probably more of a perception thing. I lived across the road from Headingly for 2 years and saw plenty of idiots at the Rhinos games.
As a football fan I was embarassed by the influx of football fans watching on Saturday night, bringing with them bigotry, racism and a general lack of decency. A chant of 'we all hate France, I say we all hate France' along with the 'No surrender' songs
You don't read much of the jingoism on PH then do you. Cheese eating surrender monkeys, and Frogs, and even the Yank abuser posts are a regular occurence. maybe PH isn't for you!
I think having a bit of a rant amongst like minded people never did anybody any harm, but inflicting your (slighty xenophobic) views on a pub full of people trying to celebrate a fantastic victory is a bit out of order in my book
Am I wrong, is anybody with me or can someone convince me of the merits of the 'beautiful game'?
It is a beautiful game. However, the lack of action on the part of the FA has meant diving is getting much more prevelent, in the same way cheating exists in all forms of sport, (yes, even rugby). The fact is that should a player be fouled in the penalty area, and stays on his feet, odd are he won't get the penalty he deserves, so it 'pays' to go down in a foul. The players are at fault for this, yes, but the FA needs to get a grip of it.
Luckily for me I like both rugby, AND football, (yes, it is possible, folks)... They are not exclusive of each other. You don't have to like one OR the other.
Actually Guys, the rugby hasn't been of that high a standard, and its certainly not as free-flowing and open as games outside of the World Cup. World Cups are always tight and there is too much to lose, so they become very defensive orientated games.
If your enjoying the World Cup for its drama and England's heroics, then great, but if you want to see rugby at its best, you should take a look at the Super 14 + Tri Nations comps for fast, free flowing running rugby and the 6 Nations and the HC for pure passion.
Its the greatest game on earth - fact !
If your enjoying the World Cup for its drama and England's heroics, then great, but if you want to see rugby at its best, you should take a look at the Super 14 + Tri Nations comps for fast, free flowing running rugby and the 6 Nations and the HC for pure passion.
Its the greatest game on earth - fact !
This is why i watch non league football these days,while England were playing last saturday i jumped on a train down to the south coast with a mate and watched a Wessex Premier league game,its a much more honest and freindly enviroment.
I cant be done with all the cheating,bullsh*t and macho man rubbish anymore.
I will be watching the rugby with interest this weekend.
I cant be done with all the cheating,bullsh*t and macho man rubbish anymore.
I will be watching the rugby with interest this weekend.
Edited by ZR1cliff on Wednesday 17th October 23:07
I know SFA about soccer - appreciate the skill of top level players but just completely put off by all the reasons listed below and some...
So tell me (as I am a soccer numpty) why the fcuk dont they just introduce a video ref for the main ref to have as a "safety" if he is unsighted in any critical decision like a penalty? Every other sport has embraced technology, why not soccer? It would only enhance the game, especially when one single goal can win or lose a game more often than not. (and us convicts know all about that, after fcukin Italy cheated us from the WC quarters with their 92nd minute oscar winning dive)
So tell me (as I am a soccer numpty) why the fcuk dont they just introduce a video ref for the main ref to have as a "safety" if he is unsighted in any critical decision like a penalty? Every other sport has embraced technology, why not soccer? It would only enhance the game, especially when one single goal can win or lose a game more often than not. (and us convicts know all about that, after fcukin Italy cheated us from the WC quarters with their 92nd minute oscar winning dive)
I believe goal line 'technology' is on the verge of being introduced, and it being tested in lower leagues. As for 'video ref', some feel it will slow the game down, or an incident occurs, and a team counter attacks the play could be brought back to investigate the incident, meaning the counter attack advantage has been lost. Unlike rugby where there are a lot of stops in play (reletively speaking) football has the ability to continue at a fairly rapid pace, and positioning is vital. Breaks in play at these crucial times could mean a team could lose its advantage as the other team can reposition themselves, if that makes any sense?
Saying that, the best way would be to have the 4th ref monitor the game, and can then talk to the ref about incidents, rather than take over control from the ref.... This would keep the game going should an incident be unfounded. Personally, I'd like divers to have the book thrown at them, and points awarded to the other team if diving reulted in a penalty, etc. It needs to be stopped, but because the advantages outweight the punishment they go for the penalty, etc.
Saying that, the best way would be to have the 4th ref monitor the game, and can then talk to the ref about incidents, rather than take over control from the ref.... This would keep the game going should an incident be unfounded. Personally, I'd like divers to have the book thrown at them, and points awarded to the other team if diving reulted in a penalty, etc. It needs to be stopped, but because the advantages outweight the punishment they go for the penalty, etc.
stimmers said:
Actually Guys, the rugby hasn't been of that high a standard, and its certainly not as free-flowing and open as games outside of the World Cup. World Cups are always tight and there is too much to lose, so they become very defensive orientated games.
If your enjoying the World Cup for its drama and England's heroics, then great, but if you want to see rugby at its best, you should take a look at the Super 14 + Tri Nations comps for fast, free flowing running rugby and the 6 Nations and the HC for pure passion.
Its the greatest game on earth - fact !
The manufactured spectacle of the S14 is the reason why Oz and NZ are no longer in the competition - S14 promotes running basketball type play above all other parts of a complex game - and Oz are even trying to steer the IRB into making rule changes to promote this non-contact, non-scrum rubbish. It's why Southern Hemisphere refs aren't bothered about forward passes, crooked feeds etc. The scrum is seen as simply a restart tactic, not an integral part of the game. Even Eddie Jones has publicly acknowledged that the lack of true sporting competitions hinders rugby development in the SH. It might look good, but it's not proper rugby. If your enjoying the World Cup for its drama and England's heroics, then great, but if you want to see rugby at its best, you should take a look at the Super 14 + Tri Nations comps for fast, free flowing running rugby and the 6 Nations and the HC for pure passion.
Its the greatest game on earth - fact !
The best rugby, as you suggest, is found in the Guinness Premiership and the Heineken Cup, where there are promotion, relegation and knockout stages. It's why England are in the WRC final, and SA are there because of the Currie Cup, not the S14.
Blue Meanie said:
I believe goal line 'technology' is on the verge of being introduced, and it being tested in lower leagues. As for 'video ref', some feel it will slow the game down, or an incident occurs, and a team counter attacks the play could be brought back to investigate the incident, meaning the counter attack advantage has been lost. Unlike rugby where there are a lot of stops in play (reletively speaking) football has the ability to continue at a fairly rapid pace, and positioning is vital. Breaks in play at these crucial times could mean a team could lose its advantage as the other team can reposition themselves, if that makes any sense?
Saying that, the best way would be to have the 4th ref monitor the game, and can then talk to the ref about incidents, rather than take over control from the ref.... This would keep the game going should an incident be unfounded. Personally, I'd like divers to have the book thrown at them, and points awarded to the other team if diving reulted in a penalty, etc. It needs to be stopped, but because the advantages outweight the punishment they go for the penalty, etc.
I think they should have the 'lose 10 metres' rule for backchat to the ref in soccer.Saying that, the best way would be to have the 4th ref monitor the game, and can then talk to the ref about incidents, rather than take over control from the ref.... This would keep the game going should an incident be unfounded. Personally, I'd like divers to have the book thrown at them, and points awarded to the other team if diving reulted in a penalty, etc. It needs to be stopped, but because the advantages outweight the punishment they go for the penalty, etc.
That might cure it.Also a sin-bin for yellow cards.
nubbin. said:
stimmers said:
Actually Guys, the rugby hasn't been of that high a standard, and its certainly not as free-flowing and open as games outside of the World Cup. World Cups are always tight and there is too much to lose, so they become very defensive orientated games.
If your enjoying the World Cup for its drama and England's heroics, then great, but if you want to see rugby at its best, you should take a look at the Super 14 + Tri Nations comps for fast, free flowing running rugby and the 6 Nations and the HC for pure passion.
Its the greatest game on earth - fact !
The manufactured spectacle of the S14 is the reason why Oz and NZ are no longer in the competition - S14 promotes running basketball type play above all other parts of a complex game - and Oz are even trying to steer the IRB into making rule changes to promote this non-contact, non-scrum rubbish. It's why Southern Hemisphere refs aren't bothered about forward passes, crooked feeds etc. The scrum is seen as simply a restart tactic, not an integral part of the game. Even Eddie Jones has publicly acknowledged that the lack of true sporting competitions hinders rugby development in the SH. It might look good, but it's not proper rugby. If your enjoying the World Cup for its drama and England's heroics, then great, but if you want to see rugby at its best, you should take a look at the Super 14 + Tri Nations comps for fast, free flowing running rugby and the 6 Nations and the HC for pure passion.
Its the greatest game on earth - fact !
The best rugby, as you suggest, is found in the Guinness Premiership and the Heineken Cup, where there are promotion, relegation and knockout stages. It's why England are in the WRC final, and SA are there because of the Currie Cup, not the S14.
You don't think Carl Hayman and Tony Woodcock are two of the best props around? You think SA cannot scrummage? The SH teams also have by far the best back rows.
your comments on Super 14 rugby is pure cliche and if you actually sat down and watched nearly every game, as i do, you will see its far from basketball style rugby.
New Zealand are still the most complete rugby team in the world, by some distance, they just cannot handle the pressure of WC's
Edited by stimmers on Thursday 18th October 12:32
nubbin. said:
stimmers said:
Actually Guys, the rugby hasn't been of that high a standard, and its certainly not as free-flowing and open as games outside of the World Cup. World Cups are always tight and there is too much to lose, so they become very defensive orientated games.
If your enjoying the World Cup for its drama and England's heroics, then great, but if you want to see rugby at its best, you should take a look at the Super 14 + Tri Nations comps for fast, free flowing running rugby and the 6 Nations and the HC for pure passion.
Its the greatest game on earth - fact !
The manufactured spectacle of the S14 is the reason why Oz and NZ are no longer in the competition - S14 promotes running basketball type play above all other parts of a complex game - and Oz are even trying to steer the IRB into making rule changes to promote this non-contact, non-scrum rubbish. It's why Southern Hemisphere refs aren't bothered about forward passes, crooked feeds etc. The scrum is seen as simply a restart tactic, not an integral part of the game. Even Eddie Jones has publicly acknowledged that the lack of true sporting competitions hinders rugby development in the SH. It might look good, but it's not proper rugby. If your enjoying the World Cup for its drama and England's heroics, then great, but if you want to see rugby at its best, you should take a look at the Super 14 + Tri Nations comps for fast, free flowing running rugby and the 6 Nations and the HC for pure passion.
Its the greatest game on earth - fact !
The best rugby, as you suggest, is found in the Guinness Premiership and the Heineken Cup, where there are promotion, relegation and knockout stages. It's why England are in the WRC final, and SA are there because of the Currie Cup, not the S14.
The Prem is a mixed bag until you get to play off time. There are a lot of very poor teams in our league, and a lot of overpaid SANZA players who should not be getting their pensions over here.
Agree re: Currie Cup. Very similar in intensity to the Heineken. One of the reason SA teams tend to fair poorly in S14 is, as you say, because they play more 'rugby' - i.e. concentrate on tight play, scrum, mauls, rucking. If the SA teams were refereed in S14 by either SA or northern hemisphere refs then I honestly think they would perform the same but their results would be better.
For a top 4 ranked RWCQF side to have a tight 5 the likes of which Australia had is frankly an embarrassment to the sport.
Even more embarrassing are the commentators who criticise England and Argentina for not playing enough rugby. What a joke. Scrums, lineouts, ruck, mauls are integral parts of the game. It's like saying Manchester United are not playing enough football if they score goals from corners. If this was the 7's world cup then fair enough, but it isn't. And until the Southern Hemisphere manages to get all scrums uncontested then Aus need to follow SA example and knuckle under.
Edited by soapbox on Thursday 18th October 12:41
Edited by soapbox on Thursday 18th October 12:42
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