10k / Half marathon

[tigger1]

Hi all,

training for a half marathon - hoping to do sub 100 minutes.

I'f I'm running about 7:50 per mile on a slow run (up to about 8 miles), is it reasonable to think that I should be able to run sub-45 for 10k?

I need to work on the speed a little - but there's still 9 weeks yet. Fingers crossd.

[ewenm]

Find a road 5k somewhere near you and try to do it in about 20 minutes. That'll give you experience of a race, plus allow you to gauge your fitness and the effort required for a 45min 10k.

There are usually lots of evening 5ks around and you can enter on the night.

[The jiffle king]

When you do your long runs, don't worry about how fast you do them, and don't do the same course and try to improve your time. It's about time on your feet and running at a pace which enables you to feel relaxed and hold a normal conversation.

You'll also need some speedwork to make you get quicker, I'm doing 6x800 tonight, but 8 x 400 is a good start too. Look on the runners world website for training plans for free.

T-J-K

[tigger1]

ewenm said:

Find a road 5k somewhere near you and try to do it in about 20 minutes. That'll give you experience of a race, plus allow you to gauge your fitness and the effort required for a 45min 10k.

There are usually lots of evening 5ks around and you can enter on the night.

Cheers Ewen (and TJK) - I used to run a lot, and have raced in the past, so I'm not concerned about the "race" element, I'm more curious as to what you think is likely in terms of pace.

I've looked at McMillan pace calculations - have you ever seen those? Know if they're accurate-ish?

I'm doing mainly a mix of short reps (800/1k x 5/6), quicker "medium" length runs (3-4mile at about 7/7.5 minute mile) and longer slower runs (up to 8 miles at 8.5 min mile). Will let you know how it comes along...and whether I go sub 95 mins in September!

[ewenm]

tigger1 said:

Cheers Ewen (and TJK) - I used to run a lot, and have raced in the past, so I'm not concerned about the "race" element, I'm more curious as to what you think is likely in terms of pace.

I've looked at McMillan pace calculations - have you ever seen those? Know if they're accurate-ish?

I'm doing mainly a mix of short reps (800/1k x 5/6), quicker "medium" length runs (3-4mile at about 7/7.5 minute mile) and longer slower runs (up to 8 miles at 8.5 min mile). Will let you know how it comes along...and whether I go sub 95 mins in September!

So to go sub 100 you need to average 7:30 per mile which is 46 minute 10k pace. I'd be trying gradually to build up your 3-4 mile runs at 7:30 pace to 8-10 miles if you can, so your 45min 10k target is a good one to start with.

In the half don't do what I did and go through 10k only 15s outside your 10k race pb The second 10k of the race was quite painful and about 2 mins slower

I've heard of but not looked at McMillan's conversions. They'll probably give a good ballpark figure but it depends what sort of runner you are - endurance or pace. Endurance types can run for ages at 90% (ish) of their flat out speed, pace types can't. So a pace-type would do a good 5k but wouldn't be able to translate that to half-marathon. Endurance types would probably be much closer to their 5k speed in a half.

[The jiffle king]

I've only run 3 half marathons, but I have made the mistake twice of going out too hard and suffering. Even pace is the key, so keep the stamina work going and inject some quality pace work. The guys at our club looking at 100 minutes for a half marathon are doing 800m reps in about 3 mins when they do 6 or 8 of them. I'd guess that 400 reps should be done around 1.24, but I've not looked at the charts we use.
Doing some tempo runs and hills would also help build stamina and increase your speed. I'm no expert having only run for 18 months, but my 5k time has come down from 21.38 to 18.05 and I'm looking for a 1.25 half this year. I started my first training programe this week having joined a club last year, but only followed a couple of sessions a week

Good luck with it

[stander]

Hi, i'll join the chorus of well wishers. two pointers for you: i. intervals for speed (at approx 150%+ of race pace) and long runs for endurance (at 85% of race pace); ii. get a really decent fitness instructor - running specific weights makes a massive difference to muscular endurance, biggest single improvement to my times.

enjoy and good luck!
B

[stimmers]

tigger1 said:

Hi all,

training for a half marathon - hoping to do sub 100 minutes.

I'f I'm running about 7:50 per mile on a slow run (up to about 8 miles), is it reasonable to think that I should be able to run sub-45 for 10k?

I need to work on the speed a little - but there's still 9 weeks yet. Fingers crossd.

Did the British 10k in London a few weeks ago. Had flu and managed 52 mins. Did all my training on a treadmill when the 10k was on roads and im suffering now with shin splints !

[The jiffle king]

Sorry to hear you ran the British 10k. I've run it twice and it was awful both times and I hear this year was poor too in terms of lack of toilets, time your own race, ages to cross the start line.

T-J-K

[996 sps]

I managed 10k in 39 Minutes and half in 1hr 29, I used a variety of training methods, Fartlek training and interval training where the most cost effective method for myself, I ensured I completed 2 Long Steady Distance runs twice a week, did't worry about the distance more concerned by the time in legs, would run for an hour building up for 2 hours.

The fartlek training I would use lamposts as my goal markers run at different paces for 40 minutes even if that meant a slow jog between some. The interval training I did't have the luxury of a track so used a football pitch 4 x complete loops, 4 x 1 side, 4 x half way line always a jog recovery never walked.

I never used a heart rate monitor, my long steady distance I would ensure I would be able to hold a conversation, for the fartlek and interval I knew I would be hanging out!

Do the gym thing as well boxercise and light weights plenty of reps just to build up your endurance. Best of luck mate.

Edited by 996 sps on Wednesday 25th July 20:14

[ewenm]

Shin splints - not fully understood but many people think they are a result of too much running on hard surfaces, so try to run off road as much as possible. Also make sure the midsole in your running shoes is still in good condition - as you do the miles the EVA foam will degrade and not provide as much cushioning or support. I tend to replace my main training shoes after a maximum of 500 miles (approx 2 months in normal training).

There is a slightly left-field theory out there about shin splints too... it seems that basketball players never get shin splints despite always running on hard surfaces. The theory suggested by at least one very successful UK coach is that it's because they spend significant amounts of time running backwards.

[stander]

996 sps said:

.. and light weights plenty of reps just to build up your endurance. Best of luck mate.

I was told the opposite, and have to say the results were really impressive, high weights on specific targeted exercises which you cant do for more than 3-5 reps. Builds great strength, without bulk. A stronger muscle will run for longer, and deals/recovers from muscle fatigue better. You then build the other elements of endurance running on your long runs.

Also regarding shin splints - I think there are a number of reasons and can be quite specific to the bio-mechanics of the runner. I spent ages under treatment and run with orthotics now, still very suseptible. Have to build muscular strength, distances, speed all nice and slowly. Road running places additional stresses on the system and is best avoided, I think if you do suffer from shin splints (obviously rest and recover) but the general advice is run on softer ground and save the road for the big day rather than trying to build a tolerance. Happy to hear others views.

[ewenm]

stander said:

996 sps said:

.. and light weights plenty of reps just to build up your endurance. Best of luck mate.

I was told the opposite, and have to say the results were really impressive, high weights on specific targeted exercises which you cant do for more than 3-5 reps. Builds great strength, without bulk. A stronger muscle will run for longer, and deals/recovers from muscle fatigue better. You then build the other elements of endurance running on your long runs.

Also regarding shin splints - I think there are a number of reasons and can be quite specific to the bio-mechanics of the runner. I spent ages under treatment and run with orthotics now, still very suseptible. Have to build muscular strength, distances, speed all nice and slowly. Road running places additional stresses on the system and is best avoided, I think if you do suffer from shin splints (obviously rest and recover) but the general advice is run on softer ground and save the road for the big day rather than trying to build a tolerance. Happy to hear others views.

I used to do 3 sets of 8 reps with the weight such that the last rep of the last set was a struggle. Did this for squats, bench press and clean and jerk. Also did some lunges with a bar across my shoulders.

Alternatives to weights work are things like circuits, hill reps, plyometrics, etc.

[The jiffle king]

Run slowly.......It's ok not to go full pace all the time

I'm doing Swanage Half marathon this weekend as a training run and it will be 1.35 as a minimum for me and no faster.

It's also our clubs away weekend on the booze, hence a Saturday race and then booze.

T-J-K

[ewenm]

The jiffle king said:

Run slowly.......It's ok not to go full pace all the time

I'm doing Swanage Half marathon this weekend as a training run and it will be 1.35 as a minimum for me and no faster.

It's also our clubs away weekend on the booze, hence a Saturday race and then booze.

T-J-K

Definitely - recovery running is very important. I've posted it before but below is my basic training schedule that got me to 30:50 10k and 67:33 half.

Monday: Steady run, 45mins ~ 7.5 miles
Tuesday: Morning slow run, 30 mins ~ 4 miles, evening track session long reps (eg 8-10x1k or 5-6x1 mile off 90s recovery)
Wednesday: Steady run, 45mins ~ 7.5 miles
Thursday: Morning slow run, 30 mins ~ 4 miles, evening track session short reps (eg 16-20x400m 45s recovery).
Friday: Rest day
Saturday: Tempo run 45-50 mins ~ 9-10 miles or Hill reps (eg 10 x 300m climb jog down recovery)
Sunday: Long steady run 90-120mins ~ 13-18 miles

As you can see only 3 days a week of fast work, the rest is steady or slow. Tempo pace is roughly my half marathon race pace, steady pace is just about holding a conversation and slow is comfortable conversations.

Also note no weights or circuits. IME if you're training specifically for running weights and circuits can provide that last 2%, but the miles in your legs provide the other 98%. The weights I described before I used to improve specific areas (I was a steeplechaser so needed hurdling strength and flexibility) or combat minor injuries.

Edited by ewenm on Friday 27th July 13:53

[stander]

ewenm said:

I used to do 3 sets of 8 reps with the weight such that the last rep of the last set was a struggle. Did this for squats, bench press and clean and jerk. Also did some lunges with a bar across my shoulders.

Lunges with bar+weights are real good, I'd go 3 sets of 5 reps, each set a toughy. Calf raises, squates, one-legged squates with free weights (30 reps), were all top. will have to try to find the old fitness schedule.

[996 sps]

stander said:

996 sps said:

.. and light weights plenty of reps just to build up your endurance. Best of luck mate.

I was told the opposite, and have to say the results were really impressive, high weights on specific targeted exercises which you cant do for more than 3-5 reps. Builds great strength, without bulk. A stronger muscle will run for longer, and deals/recovers from muscle fatigue better. You then build the other elements of endurance running on your long runs.

Also regarding shin splints - I think there are a number of reasons and can be quite specific to the bio-mechanics of the runner. I spent ages under treatment and run with orthotics now, still very suseptible. Have to build muscular strength, distances, speed all nice and slowly. Road running places
additional stresses on the system and is best avoided, I think if you do suffer from shin splints (obviously rest and recover) but the general advice is run on softer ground and save the road for the big day rather than trying to build a tolerance. Happy to hear others views.

Thats interesting reference the advice you had on weights, who told you that? Where did he get his advice from? Just interested, to be honest I do heavy and between 8 to 10 reps, you say high weights, do you mean heavy weights? 3 to 5 would bulk you up, the definition of strength is one maximal lift in one maximal effort, so if you trained correctly you would bulk up. If you got results though thats fantastic. To be fair there is so many methods of strength training, matrix, pyramid go on for ever but for this guy my advice would be light weights high reps, but would agree to throw in a couple of heavy sessions but would disagree to do heavy every weights session. Dead lifts, lunges and squats great thing about these exercises is you have lombards paradox, i.e you have co=contraction of quads and hamstrings which if you study the exercise i.e dead lift and squats you work both hamstrings and quads together.

As for shin splints it can be a bio mechanical issue, or something as small as socks to tight or laces, the dorsi flex muscles mainly tibilas anterior gets overworked through the toe off action during the running gait (especially if running with a bergan and boots), good advice to get your own insoles though as can sort this out. Important to make sure its shin splints and not compartment syndrome as then you have to have lateral releases and running days are slightly over.

Rest, ice compression and elevation are the old skool but best methods of getting rid of shin splints, but examine your trainers and insoles look at the type of socks your wearing and how tightly you lace your boots/trainers.

Edited by 996 sps on Friday 27th July 13:39

[stander]

http://www.thethirdspace.com/

TBH I was there a couple of years ago so I might be blurring my wording with subsquent training which has been to drop bulk and improve muscular density. The gym is a trendy London one, but also trains a number of (semi-)profesional sportsman.

I will try to dig up the training programme and will post it here. I have a number of bio mechanical issues, my previous race was NYC marathon and by the end I was absolutely shattered and a lot of physical pain. After the training I ran London, I trained less timewise but gained performance and was absoluetly 100% fine after the race.

Now I wouldnt touch running without a good weights programme

[Mahatma Bag]

Bloody hell, what an impressive nest of racing snakes!

I am training for the NY marathon and will be pleased to do it in under 4 hours 30. Did London in April but it was terrible, hottest one on record and they ran out of water!

[Onz]

A bit o/t but felt it the most appropriate place to post...when running (seemingly only on hard surfaces) I find the two muscles either side of my spine in my lower back become really stiff and tense to the point where I feel the need to stop and bend over to stretch it out/loosen it.

I'm fairly fit/flexible...never done a huge amount of running on hard surfaces, always rugby or football so on grass. 5 a side never causes any problems it just seems to be when road running. Any ideas what could cause it?