Legit question 4 the poms (Don't worry - not about cricket!)

[hsvgtscoupe]

I know soccer (sorry - football!) is the most popular sport in the UK, but I wondered if there are many british sports fans who really don't like it, or more so, what it has become. I say "sports fans" because I automatically want to exclude the generic groups that just hate sport of most kinds - lets face it, these people exist in all countries (even sports mad Oz!)

Not saying I completely hate the game - I can admire the true skills involved but I just cant stand the circus that surrounds it & more so, how piss weak the top level players are; it seems if you fart near them they will fall down (until that magical healing whistle blows!) I enjoy watching the games where countries are playing that are true "teams" - generally from places where soccer is not as high profile - eg Japan, Korea, Aus etc - the players seem to bond better & show the old "star team" rather than "team of stars" character. Anyway, curious for some perspective from those far more expert on the game than I.

[unrepentant]

I love football but I have to agree with you about the fact that the players are a bunch of actors. It is pathetic how they roll around and feign injury and pretend to be mortally wounded from the slightest touch. And if so much as a hair brushes against their faces that is cause for a stretcher. it didn't used to be like that in the days of real hard men like Tommy Smith, Norman Hunter and Dave McKay.

You watch that and then watch a good game of Rugby Union or League and you realise what a bunch of pansies most of them are. In his biography Martin Johnson talks about being in a ruck in a club game when a fist came through and smacked him hard in the middle of the face. He looked up and saw Danny Grewcock. Did he roll about theatrically, pretend to be dying etc...? No he grinned, said "nice one Grewks" and carried on playing.

[360stimo]

I've always been a rugby man myself, but i used to love watching footie towards the end of the 80's and early 90's. I hardly watch any football now. Its all about money, who can buy who etc and most of the players are a serious bunch of to$$ers. Diving, cheating, over paid bunch of children.

Just been in Limerick for the Munster vs Tigers HC game. One of the best sporting weekends i have ever done. Great banter between the sets of supporters in the pubs and in the ground. Two sets of players who went onto the pitch and knocked crap out of each other for 80 mins and put their bodies on the line and its all hand shakes and respect when the game is over. Thats what sport is all about. Football away trip would have been all about fights between a stupid bunch of chavs.

Football has turned into a circus, give me rugby and NFL anyday.

[ewenm]

I'm a sports fan but don't like football. Too much play acting and not enough respect for the referees. If the refs came down harder on backchat and such like, the games might improve I guess.

I also have a problem with the attitude of fans at games - I find the mob culture at the few games I've been to pretty unpleasant and a complete contrast to the atmosphere at Rugby matches (for example).

[Andy Mac]

Not quite sure where you chaps get the whole 'football is about fights between sets of fans' but ho hum. Agree with the diving, etc though. The sooner refs put a stop to it the better. I think only the captains should speak to the refs, and punishment should be given for diving should the ref not see it, or not give it.
PS... Thread like this will always come down to Rugby types looking down their noses, but nothing you can do about that. Every match I've been to has been fine, with no fights, and drinking in pubs with other fans being very friendly indeed.

[hsvgtscoupe]

Andy Mac said:

Thread like this will always come down to Rugby types looking down their noses, but nothing you can do about that.

Hmmmmmmm.... certainly wasn't trying to start a "bum sniffers" vs "failed hairdressers" bun fight but from a non pommy point of view just wanted to see what the local "sports fan" punters think. Personally Rugby is not my game either, being from Melbourne, Aussie Rules is my game - played it & follow it & I'm yet to find a game that surpasses it for combination of tough contact, speed & fitness. Soccer atmosphere must be kinda unique with all the singin etc but the facts I raised below certainly let it down badly as a proff sport. Rugby cert seems a lot more "sportslike" in its conduct & following (as a general rule). I just reckon that the bad side of soccer fans is probably a symptom of a game with not a lot of scoring - the fans have to vent all that passion/frustration somehow & we've all seen the ugly side. Aussie rules, rugby etc all have frequent scores to cheer so that emotional boilover afterwards is far less common IMHO.

[360stimo]

Andy Mac said:

PS... Thread like this will always come down to Rugby types looking down their noses, but nothing you can do about that. Every match I've been to has been fine, with no fights, and drinking in pubs with other fans being very friendly indeed.

With good reason. Just need to look at England everytime a major comp is on and even as recently as Cardiff vs Tottenham for violence and idiot supporters.

Football needs to learn a hell of a lot from rugby, or fans will continue to turn off in numbers.

[unrepentant]

360stimo said:

Andy Mac said:

PS... Thread like this will always come down to Rugby types looking down their noses, but nothing you can do about that. Every match I've been to has been fine, with no fights, and drinking in pubs with other fans being very friendly indeed.

With good reason. Just need to look at England everytime a major comp is on and even as recently as Cardiff vs Tottenham for violence and idiot supporters.

Football needs to learn a hell of a lot from rugby, or fans will continue to turn off in numbers.

Cardiff is in Wales, not England? And their fans have always been notorious.

[Highway Star]

I watch a lot of 'top level' football because of the players rather than any fan trouble, perceived or else. I do enjoy watching my local team though. I'd prefer to go to the Rec to watch Bath than to the Fitness First to watch Bournemouth purely because I prefer to watch rugby as opposed to football.

To the OP, I love Aussie rules, used to watch in on TV here as a kid (it was on for an hour a week), went to a Hawthorn game when on a business trip - it was one of the best atmospheres I've experienced at a sports event.

[360stimo]

unrepentant said:

360stimo said:

Andy Mac said:

PS... Thread like this will always come down to Rugby types looking down their noses, but nothing you can do about that. Every match I've been to has been fine, with no fights, and drinking in pubs with other fans being very friendly indeed.

With good reason. Just need to look at England everytime a major comp is on and even as recently as Cardiff vs Tottenham for violence and idiot supporters.

Football needs to learn a hell of a lot from rugby, or fans will continue to turn off in numbers.

Cardiff is in Wales, not England? And their fans have always been notorious.

Dont be so bloody pedantic, they play in the English league, surely that is good enough for you?
So the fact that they are notorious means that you just accpet it and gives it some sort of justification that there is violence in Cardiff ?

Great post mate

[ewenm]

For me, football would be greatly improved if the players would just accept referees decisions without questioning them. They may not agree with them and the ref could be wrong, but the players have to accept them. The sight of the referee being surrounded by shouting players brings the game into disrepute.

The FA should empower the referees to punish this behaviour harshly. A few games ending with 8 players on each side might fairly quickly change the attitudes. Alternatively a sin-bin system or power (and encouragement) to move the free kick 10yds for dissent could help - these measures prevent backchat in rugby quite well.

The main reason I don't enjoy football (disregarding the aggressive atmosphere at matches I've been to) is that the players seem to be more interested in gamesmanship than sportsmanship. That doesn't interest me in any sport.

[unrepentant]

360stimo said:

unrepentant said:

360stimo said:

With good reason. Just need to look at England everytime a major comp is on and even as recently as Cardiff vs Tottenham for violence and idiot supporters.

Football needs to learn a hell of a lot from rugby, or fans will continue to turn off in numbers.

Cardiff is in Wales, not England? And their fans have always been notorious.

Dont be so bloody pedantic, they play in the English league, surely that is good enough for you?
So the fact that they are notorious means that you just accpet it and gives it some sort of justification that there is violence in Cardiff ?

Great post mate

Your post is so wrong on every level. Firstly, far from "fans continuing to be turned off in droves" football has never been more popular. Or had you not noticed the billions of pounds of revenue being generated through its popularity? Rugby meanwhile is in crisis and will almost certainly have to be restructured.

There is relatively little violence these days, particularly when compared to the 70's and 80's, and hardly ever any at matches. To single out England, where huge advances in this area have been made is unreasonable as the problem is as bad if not worse in many other european countries. And whilst there have been isolated instances of young men fighting in city centres during recent tournaments the same could be said for Ibiza or Aya Napa or anywhere where thousands of young men congregate at night to drink. It is to do with society and young men, not football.

And far from being pedantic Wales most certainly is NOT in England, as any Welshman will tell you and therefore any alleged hooligans emanating from there should not be classified as English.

[hsvgtscoupe]

sorry lads.. was no intention to start a wales vs england or rugby vs soccer thread; just a legit observation from a neutral observer.
OK; attempted diversion tactic......
"did you see how crap England are a cricket.. just got smacked by the boys with the oversize wellies & velcro gloves!"

[ewenm]

hsvgtscoupe said:

sorry lads.. was no intention to start a wales vs england or rugby vs soccer thread; just a legit observation from a neutral observer.
OK; attempted diversion tactic......
"did you see how crap England are a cricket.. just got smacked by the boys with the oversize wellies & velcro gloves!"

Hey! You said no England-cricket-bashing here!

There are three opinions of football in the UK - those that love it (and call it the "Beautiful Game", those that see it as the source fo all evil, and those that don't care either way. I'm a "don't care either way" person but would like to see good play and sportsmanship when I do watch a game. Sadly that seems hard to find at the moment.

[unrepentant]

At least since Cantona retired we dont the appalling spectacle of violent players rushing into the crowd and assaulting supporters. This sort of shameful action can only be harmful to the image of rubgy and needs to be stamped out or "fans will continue to turn off in numbers". After all you dont go out to a game expecting some 6' 5" 17 stone thug to start beating up the crowd do you?

Disgusting behaviour.

www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,377-2560926,00.html

[ewenm]

unrepentant said:

At least since Cantona retired we dont the appalling spectacle of violent players rushing into the crowd and assaulting supporters. This sort of shameful action can only be harmful to the image of rubgy and needs to be stamped out or "fans will continue to turn off in numbers". After all you dont go out to a game expecting some 6' 5" 17 stone thug to start beating up the crowd do you?

Disgusting behaviour.

www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,377-2560926,00.html

It is disgusting behaviour and I hope he's prosecuted for assault. Just like football though, crowd sizes at rugby matches are growing

[Andy Mac]

Football players fall over to obtain free kicks. Rugby players try to litterally stamp the bejesus out of other players. Lovely bunch of lads.

[ewenm]

Andy Mac said:

Football players fall over to obtain free kicks. Rugby players try to litterally stamp the bejesus out of other players. Lovely bunch of lads.

There's a thing called rucking that is legal in the laws of the game. If it's stamping, that's illegal and punished by the ref or by citing afterwards.

As I said earlier, play to the laws of the game. If you step outside them, accept the referee's decision. If you feel hard done by in a decision, accept it and move on. This should apply to all sports. In the two main ones discussed here, rugby referees have the power to command that respect, football ones don't. That's a matter for the relevant governing bodies.

[Highway Star]

ewenm said:

Andy Mac said:

Football players fall over to obtain free kicks. Rugby players try to litterally stamp the bejesus out of other players. Lovely bunch of lads.

There's a thing called rucking that is legal in the laws of the game. If it's stamping, that's illegal and punished by the ref or by citing afterwards.

As I said earlier, play to the laws of the game. If you step outside them, accept the referee's decision. If you feel hard done by in a decision, accept it and move on. This should apply to all sports. In the two main ones discussed here, rugby referees have the power to command that respect, football ones don't. That's a matter for the relevant governing bodies.

Exactly.

I don't understand the other post though - it's rugby. They don't 'literally stamp the bejesus out of the other players', this shows a stereotyping of rugby by a football fan when you were complaining about the reverse earlier in the thread.

Rugby is a more physical contact sport than football, always has been, always will be. If you are on the wrong side in rugby and preventing access to the ball, you can expect some rucking within the laws of the game. There is nothing wrong with that and frankly if a player can't take it, they shouldn't be playing. As ewen said, stamping and rucking are different, one is illegal, one is legal. Just like faking contact to win a penalty versus contact bringing a player down.

[360stimo]

unrepentant said:

360stimo said:

unrepentant said:

360stimo said:

With good reason. Just need to look at England everytime a major comp is on and even as recently as Cardiff vs Tottenham for violence and idiot supporters.

Football needs to learn a hell of a lot from rugby, or fans will continue to turn off in numbers.

Cardiff is in Wales, not England? And their fans have always been notorious.

Dont be so bloody pedantic, they play in the English league, surely that is good enough for you?
So the fact that they are notorious means that you just accpet it and gives it some sort of justification that there is violence in Cardiff ?

Great post mate

Your post is so wrong on every level. Firstly, far from "fans continuing to be turned off in droves" football has never been more popular. Or had you not noticed the billions of pounds of revenue being generated through its popularity? Rugby meanwhile is in crisis and will almost certainly have to be restructured.

There is relatively little violence these days, particularly when compared to the 70's and 80's, and hardly ever any at matches. To single out England, where huge advances in this area have been made is unreasonable as the problem is as bad if not worse in many other european countries. And whilst there have been isolated instances of young men fighting in city centres during recent tournaments the same could be said for Ibiza or Aya Napa or anywhere where thousands of young men congregate at night to drink. It is to do with society and young men, not football.

And far from being pedantic Wales most certainly is NOT in England, as any Welshman will tell you and therefore any alleged hooligans emanating from there should not be classified as English.

What a crock of shit. I have worked in the sports industry for many years and can tell you football and crowds are on the decline. Rising salary's of players mean rising ticket prices, amount of football on the TV has had a huge effect too. This is right the way from the premier league to the conference and non league. I guess you just look at Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and think football is a rich, full of investment and sold out crowds. Your a joker and deluded and need to deal in facts. Have any idea how many premier league clubs are in debt and how big some of that debt is ? 80% of Premier clubs are in debt. My team Everton are £34 million in debt and about to increase that with a new stadium. A new stadium they need to try and get that debt down. In fact as it happens Man td are the club in more debt that anyone (with the exception of Real Madrid), its just Man Utd have the global power to sell products and their brand better than anyone.

Rugby isn't close to be in crisis unless all you mean is how England are performing on the pitch. Off the pitch the rugby world couldn't be better in the UK. How do you think the new South Stand at Twickenham was paid for??? RFU money, that comes from where? The fact that Twickenham has generated more revenue in ticket sales in 2006 than it ever has before and that it will make even more in 2007, due to increased ticket prices and nearly every game being totally sold out (supply and demand). In crisis, i dont think so. Crowds in the ML, GP and HC are bigger than they ever have been before and the rugby clubs do not face massive debts. The only crisis in rugby is the structure of the way that players are developed and brought through in England, which will be resolved by central contract deal that is now on the table and the correct and only option for English rugby.

Arrests at football matches has gone down 10% in a year, but you still have 3,982 per season. You cannot travel to an England away game with something happening and you still cannot sit in a football stadium anywhere without hearing all sorts of digusting language which i would not want my children to hear if i had some. I dont even need to mention major football tournaments.

Please get your facts right

edited to say, Premier league attendances for the first half of this season are down 8.7% from last season

Edited by 360stimo on Tuesday 23 January 19:44