What a load of sh**e !!!!
Discussion
Portugal or Holland be made up after watching that lot. Robinson booting the ball up the park to their keeper , Rooney wasted up front. Carragher on when needed some pace (Lennon). Beckham has a free kick and that's it. Lampard woeful. What was the point of Walcott in the squad? What's worse is we get rid of the tactically useless Swede and have MaClaren to take over.
Mikej said:
I bet that the Dutch and Portugese are quaking in their boots 
Cosidering the ease and sheer agony that they fell to the floor with from even the most innocuous of challenges tonight, I suspect they will indeed be shaking in their boots at the thought of going toe to toe with physical Premiership players. That is if they have enough players who aren't injured or suspended. Deco - LOL.
Antony Moxey said:
Mikej said:
I bet that the Dutch and Portugese are quaking in their boots
Cosidering the ease and sheer agony that they fell to the floor with from even the most innocuous of challenges tonight, I suspect they will indeed be shaking in their boots at the thought of going toe to toe with physical Premiership players. That is if they have enough players who aren't injured or suspended. Deco - LOL.
It often looks as if there is a sniper in the ground the way that they it the floor.
Richard Williams, in Guardian, uses a few more words to say the same thing:
"England, however, are a squad with pretensions to win the World Cup for the first time in 40 years and they should be deeply worried by the continuing poverty and confusion of their play. They have now produced 360 minutes of football without suggesting for more than a moment that they belong in the same tournament as Argentina, Germany, Brazil, Ghana, Holland and Australia.
Those teams have all shown, either consistently or in extended bursts, the ability to play football that depends on accuracy, imagination and teamwork. They have demonstrated character, intelligence and dynamism. England, by dismal contrast, lack personality either as a team or, except in so far as some of them have achieved celebrity status, as individuals. Even when they are visited by a rare moment of excellence, such as Joe Cole's goal against Sweden, they are incapable of building a performance on it. Sluggish in thought and movement, they appear to be making their games up as they go along."
.... and the scary thing is that, if they go and win it, the OTT focus on personality, individualism and ego that we have seen since Sky came into the game 15 yrs ago, will get even worse.
"England, however, are a squad with pretensions to win the World Cup for the first time in 40 years and they should be deeply worried by the continuing poverty and confusion of their play. They have now produced 360 minutes of football without suggesting for more than a moment that they belong in the same tournament as Argentina, Germany, Brazil, Ghana, Holland and Australia.
Those teams have all shown, either consistently or in extended bursts, the ability to play football that depends on accuracy, imagination and teamwork. They have demonstrated character, intelligence and dynamism. England, by dismal contrast, lack personality either as a team or, except in so far as some of them have achieved celebrity status, as individuals. Even when they are visited by a rare moment of excellence, such as Joe Cole's goal against Sweden, they are incapable of building a performance on it. Sluggish in thought and movement, they appear to be making their games up as they go along."
.... and the scary thing is that, if they go and win it, the OTT focus on personality, individualism and ego that we have seen since Sky came into the game 15 yrs ago, will get even worse.
But football isn't all about the Argentinas and Brazils doing their fancy stepovers and intricate passing triangles - to me. I don't expect to see that at City on a cold winter evening, what I do want is true honest effort, players giving all they can give to the cause, being the best they can be for as long as they can. I laugh at twinkle toed dandies because I cannot relate to them, even in my wildest I could never imagine ever having that kind of skill. But we can all relate to the capable player with the sound work ethic, with the big heart and good enough engine to motor up and down the pitch for 70 minutes before being subbed - exhausted. As for England I expect them to be the best of that breed. Tough, uncompromising and honest - with a few more skills than most. Where we do not have the elegance or fluidity of the Latino sides we have other attributes to compensate - never say die spirit, solidity, courage. It is so easy to criticise England because they compare badly to these others in the terms of imagination or dynamism - but it is a simple game there is nothing fanciful about it, we have all watched pretty performances but unless you get the result they are no more entertaining. The only frustration I have felt is when we don't play to the best of our abilities like defending the corners .v. Sweden - I don't expect us to match the opponents performance because we are trying to do the same thing differently. I would argue that we have played with accuracy and teamwork and that we have executed the various plans satisfactorily to date, isolating the flair players, bossing the center of the park, wearing the opponents down, doing the things they don't like us to do hounding the man on the ball - they don't like to play the ball quickly they like to settle and create be imaginative, we need to be on their backs, in their faces breathing down their necks - and then the chances will come - and that is why we have the lads who can punish teams when we get the opportunity - once Lamps gets his sights set again we will pose a real threat - we are a tough team to play against - opponents know they can't afford many mistakes or they will be punished - puts the pressure on them .... no they don't like it up 'em ... 
beaublack said:
But football isn't all about the Argentinas and Brazils doing their fancy stepovers and intricate passing triangles - to me. I don't expect to see that at City on a cold winter evening, what I do want is true honest effort, players giving all they can give to the cause, being the best they can be for as long as they can. I laugh at twinkle toed dandies because I cannot relate to them, even in my wildest I could never imagine ever having that kind of skill. But we can all relate to the capable player with the sound work ethic, with the big heart and good enough engine to motor up and down the pitch for 70 minutes before being subbed - exhausted. As for England I expect them to be the best of that breed. Tough, uncompromising and honest - with a few more skills than most. Where we do not have the elegance or fluidity of the Latino sides we have other attributes to compensate - never say die spirit, solidity, courage. It is so easy to criticise England because they compare badly to these others in the terms of imagination or dynamism - but it is a simple game there is nothing fanciful about it, we have all watched pretty performances but unless you get the result they are no more entertaining. The only frustration I have felt is when we don't play to the best of our abilities like defending the corners .v. Sweden - I don't expect us to match the opponents performance because we are trying to do the same thing differently. I would argue that we have played with accuracy and teamwork and that we have executed the various plans satisfactorily to date, isolating the flair players, bossing the center of the park, wearing the opponents down, doing the things they don't like us to do hounding the man on the ball - they don't like to play the ball quickly they like to settle and create be imaginative, we need to be on their backs, in their faces breathing down their necks - and then the chances will come - and that is why we have the lads who can punish teams when we get the opportunity - once Lamps gets his sights set again we will pose a real threat - we are a tough team to play against - opponents know they can't afford many mistakes or they will be punished - puts the pressure on them .... no they don't like it up 'em ...
Well Said Beaublack.
To me Rooney yesterday symbolised all that I expect from an England performance. He was coming back from injury but still gave everything to the cause. The problem is in recent tournaments many players have not put the effort in. As one newspaper writer put it 'many of the current lot should have three mice on the shirts, rather than lions.
Lots of threads beating up on the England performances at the moment. I thought rooney played really well, I thought carrick was pretty good, and we won the game, again.
Let's say we scrap our way all the way to the final in the same fashion, then scrap a one nil win in the same fashion? I assume that you wont celebrate becuase we haven't won in the style you expect?
Let's say we scrap our way all the way to the final in the same fashion, then scrap a one nil win in the same fashion? I assume that you wont celebrate becuase we haven't won in the style you expect?
As a Liverpudlian, it is a bit rich listening to people defending england's style when many of thos epeople slagged us off for not being Arsenal and still winning. So I know all about the values of effort, team work and courage over and above the poser's stuff.
What I have grown to detest is the focus on the big shot. We had it with Gerrard being made to think he was bigger and better than the rest. He aint. He is one of the rest. His skill and leadership by example have won us many key matches; but there was areaction after the Olympiakos game in 2004 which made him realise that the ego aint what the fans - or his manager - wanted to see. He has benefited from reflection. You see that in the way he responds to decisions that dont always go his way; he gets on with it now.
I know Rooney's good, but he has a nasty streak. I know some of the best players fdown the years have had it, but it comes out in him more often than not. And it has been mawkish to have Sky asking for a whole year if he will be fit or not. Just get on with it and play as a team. Stop rabbiting on about individuals.
I am a scouser of anglo irish mediterranean descent, so I like the best of both worlds: the graft and the artistry. And as it is a world cup, I only care that the team that plays the best all round footy wins. And just cos the Brasilians and Argentinians, except perhpas Heinze, at times, dont go snarling into the faces of the oppo or the officials, doestn meant they dont also value such things as effort along side skill. I just do not look forward to Rooney's or Ferdinand's snarling & contorted faces staring into the camera.
This game is about joy - not hate. It should be played that way. I just feel the media and the "engerland marketting machine" has done these young lads a disservice down the years. We won the world cup once; great. It was not "ours" like the land is ours. It is an aim; not a right. The 'Dream Team' culture espoused and encouraged by Sky's money making machine, coupled with the fact that they have grown up in our get-rich-quick modern world, has corroded what some of these youngsters may have become. I think we need another period of reflection as a nation; to be a bit more humble; a bit less hostile; before we are ready to be Champions of the World.
We really have never had it so good. And if wewon it, the country would not learn a thing about itself. No growth - only arrogance. I think it is time for us to be less proud of our assumptions and more eager to learn, to grow, to learn.
As for "celebrating" an english win - no I wont. I look forward to getting my calf muscle better, to trining for the Vets new season, and helping us to promotion. I follow Liverpool Football Club and we have players from all over the world. I appreciate the patriotism of Gerrard and Carra and hope they do well. I half expect Crouchy to get the winner in the final, which would be another fantastic rebuttal to some of the small minded bigots, who have returned to their holes after discpicable attacks on his appearance last year. I want all those players who play for different nations to shine and return fully fit for next season.
This is a big world. I aint a little englander. I'd like to see a British national team.
The best two teams to combine effort and artistry, with honesty and love for free flowing footy, have been Brasil and Argentina. Spain look good, but they have a few divers and cheats, which makes them less attractive to me - and I count little Luis as someone who is prone to the simulation, too. I dont condone it cos he plays for us. I prefer the honesty of Alonso. The French - ok, but even more arrognat than the english. So, not for me. Germanys - disgraceful attitude of Podolski & Klose getting people booked. No thanks.
The best two teams to combine effort and artistry; with honesty and love for free flowing footy; whose fans have held a debate about their favourite sport which has run parallel to that in relation to debates about bigger national psyche issues; through times of social upheaval and change; who are ready to assume the mantle of gracing the world with the best finla for decades, have to be Brasil and Argentina.
What I have grown to detest is the focus on the big shot. We had it with Gerrard being made to think he was bigger and better than the rest. He aint. He is one of the rest. His skill and leadership by example have won us many key matches; but there was areaction after the Olympiakos game in 2004 which made him realise that the ego aint what the fans - or his manager - wanted to see. He has benefited from reflection. You see that in the way he responds to decisions that dont always go his way; he gets on with it now.
I know Rooney's good, but he has a nasty streak. I know some of the best players fdown the years have had it, but it comes out in him more often than not. And it has been mawkish to have Sky asking for a whole year if he will be fit or not. Just get on with it and play as a team. Stop rabbiting on about individuals.
I am a scouser of anglo irish mediterranean descent, so I like the best of both worlds: the graft and the artistry. And as it is a world cup, I only care that the team that plays the best all round footy wins. And just cos the Brasilians and Argentinians, except perhpas Heinze, at times, dont go snarling into the faces of the oppo or the officials, doestn meant they dont also value such things as effort along side skill. I just do not look forward to Rooney's or Ferdinand's snarling & contorted faces staring into the camera.
This game is about joy - not hate. It should be played that way. I just feel the media and the "engerland marketting machine" has done these young lads a disservice down the years. We won the world cup once; great. It was not "ours" like the land is ours. It is an aim; not a right. The 'Dream Team' culture espoused and encouraged by Sky's money making machine, coupled with the fact that they have grown up in our get-rich-quick modern world, has corroded what some of these youngsters may have become. I think we need another period of reflection as a nation; to be a bit more humble; a bit less hostile; before we are ready to be Champions of the World.
We really have never had it so good. And if wewon it, the country would not learn a thing about itself. No growth - only arrogance. I think it is time for us to be less proud of our assumptions and more eager to learn, to grow, to learn.
As for "celebrating" an english win - no I wont. I look forward to getting my calf muscle better, to trining for the Vets new season, and helping us to promotion. I follow Liverpool Football Club and we have players from all over the world. I appreciate the patriotism of Gerrard and Carra and hope they do well. I half expect Crouchy to get the winner in the final, which would be another fantastic rebuttal to some of the small minded bigots, who have returned to their holes after discpicable attacks on his appearance last year. I want all those players who play for different nations to shine and return fully fit for next season.
This is a big world. I aint a little englander. I'd like to see a British national team.
The best two teams to combine effort and artistry, with honesty and love for free flowing footy, have been Brasil and Argentina. Spain look good, but they have a few divers and cheats, which makes them less attractive to me - and I count little Luis as someone who is prone to the simulation, too. I dont condone it cos he plays for us. I prefer the honesty of Alonso. The French - ok, but even more arrognat than the english. So, not for me. Germanys - disgraceful attitude of Podolski & Klose getting people booked. No thanks.
The best two teams to combine effort and artistry; with honesty and love for free flowing footy; whose fans have held a debate about their favourite sport which has run parallel to that in relation to debates about bigger national psyche issues; through times of social upheaval and change; who are ready to assume the mantle of gracing the world with the best finla for decades, have to be Brasil and Argentina.
Edited by shadowfax on Monday 26th June 18:47
Great post Shadowfax. It's the World Cup for Christ's sake, I want to watch attacking football with flair. Not dour tactics trying to scrape thru to the final. The African nations have been great to watch, just a bit naive and individualistic. I want England to win, but if we do with Maclaren then our football will never improve. Christ he'll have Beckam playing in the next World Cup.
I agree Rooney has all the right atributes, apart from his temper, but they are playing him in wrong position. Perhaps if Crouch or Walcot was upfront, Rooney behind and Lennon on the right, then we wouldn't have to rely on Beckham's free kicks. His corners have been poor and most of his free kicks, so what is he doing there.
Roll on next season and can watch Liverpool , at least we have a manager with some nous.
I agree Rooney has all the right atributes, apart from his temper, but they are playing him in wrong position. Perhaps if Crouch or Walcot was upfront, Rooney behind and Lennon on the right, then we wouldn't have to rely on Beckham's free kicks. His corners have been poor and most of his free kicks, so what is he doing there.
Roll on next season and can watch Liverpool , at least we have a manager with some nous.
Interesting reading here. To put it another, much shorter way then:
If we keep playing unattractive, less flair and imagination filled football and win the World Cup, will people still complain?
The Italians were going mad about their 1-0 win with a dodgy penalty and a poor performance yet English fans are always the first to criticise. Unless we win 7-0 with a goal to contend with the best in the tournament, we are always seen as poor!
Football is a results game, we have had the results and got through. We are in the last 8 for heavens sake!
If we keep playing unattractive, less flair and imagination filled football and win the World Cup, will people still complain?
The Italians were going mad about their 1-0 win with a dodgy penalty and a poor performance yet English fans are always the first to criticise. Unless we win 7-0 with a goal to contend with the best in the tournament, we are always seen as poor!
Football is a results game, we have had the results and got through. We are in the last 8 for heavens sake!
v15ben said:
Interesting reading here. To put it another, much shorter way then:
If we keep playing unattractive, less flair and imagination filled football and win the World Cup, will people still complain?
The Italians were going mad about their 1-0 win with a dodgy penalty and a poor performance yet English fans are always the first to criticise. Unless we win 7-0 with a goal to contend with the best in the tournament, we are always seen as poor!
Football is a results game, we have had the results and got through. We are in the last 8 for heavens sake!
If we keep playing unattractive, less flair and imagination filled football and win the World Cup, will people still complain?
The Italians were going mad about their 1-0 win with a dodgy penalty and a poor performance yet English fans are always the first to criticise. Unless we win 7-0 with a goal to contend with the best in the tournament, we are always seen as poor!
Football is a results game, we have had the results and got through. We are in the last 8 for heavens sake!
I wont complain; I just wont celebrate. I want to see the best teams entertain me. I only celebrate Liverpool victories. Roll on August!
Just watched France and Spain, and the speed they move the ball about was excellent. We have the players to do this but we hoof the ball up the park or our approach play is just too slow. This is down to the system and players chosen by the manager. Even if we do win it, which I think is seriously doubtful, I'm sure the majority will be glad to see the back of Sven.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Before reading this thread I did the BBC WC predictor and came up with the same semis as you, with an Italy v Brazil final, the latter to win. In that respect Shadowfax is not wrong - the most pleasure that I've taken from a game involved Brazil (against Croatia). So many good shots on target and old hamburger-scoffer showing that he can still do the two-step.
We shall see, and I'd be happy to be wrong and see the Argentinians give the Italians a kicking, with "devil" Tevez harrying them into the ground to make it a Panamerica cup final!
England seem capable of making a game against just about any team a bit of a non-event. This is partly to their credit as they can close down potentially dangerous opposition, but I'm sure that they'll eventually revert true to form and pull back after scoring to give the opposition numerous potshots, resulting finally in snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Can't see them going all the way but am willing to be proved wrong!
icb said:
Just watched France and Spain, and the speed they move the ball about was excellent. We have the players to do this but we hoof the ball up the park or our approach play is just too slow. This is down to the system and players chosen by the manager. Even if we do win it, which I think is seriously doubtful, I'm sure the majority will be glad to see the back of Sven.
Let's face it, if we do win, it'll be inspite of the Swedish lift wearing gigolo... any half decent manager could make a team out the current crop of players and anyone with a brain would have packed 4 fit strikers plus Rooney onto the plane!
The guy is little more than a mercenary and an imbecile, who can not keep his pecker in his y-fronts!
The only decision the FA have ever made approaching as bad as this one, was the grey strip for Euro 96.
Edited by fozzi on Wednesday 28th June 00:01
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