Help me get faster at 5k
Discussion
Hi all,
After a bit of advice. I’ve been trying for the past 18 months to get under 20 min at the 5km distance.
Jan 22 PB was 21:27
Jan 23 PB was 20:23
2 weeks ago I did 20:07
All above at local flat ParkRuns.
I know people will say I’m improving and should be happy, and I am. But I’m getting a bit impatient now. I’m doing the Great North Run in Sept so will be switching my training to focus on that in mid June.
So ideally want to nail sub 20k in next 6 weeks!
Current training is as follows;
1 x 90 mins long run. Steady for first hour. Push last 30 mins. Usually end up doing about 18km.
1 x ParkRun +/- warmup and c/d
1 x 45 mins recovery (approx 8.5km)
1 x interval session which I’ve been rotating the following 4 sessions;
Week 1 - 4 x 1km @ 3:57 /km (3 min walk)
Week 2 - 4 x 1mile (2 @ 3:54 /km, 2 @ 4:10 /km (3 min walk)
Week 3 - 12 x 400m @ 3:30-3:45 /km (60s walk)
Week 4 - 3 x 2km @ 4:05 /km (3 min walk).
Most weeks the runs total 40-45km.
Thoughts?
Edit- forgot to add. I’m a fit and healthy 38yr old bloke. 5’10”. 78kg. I see absolutely no reason why I’m struggling to nail this.
After a bit of advice. I’ve been trying for the past 18 months to get under 20 min at the 5km distance.
Jan 22 PB was 21:27
Jan 23 PB was 20:23
2 weeks ago I did 20:07
All above at local flat ParkRuns.
I know people will say I’m improving and should be happy, and I am. But I’m getting a bit impatient now. I’m doing the Great North Run in Sept so will be switching my training to focus on that in mid June.
So ideally want to nail sub 20k in next 6 weeks!
Current training is as follows;
1 x 90 mins long run. Steady for first hour. Push last 30 mins. Usually end up doing about 18km.
1 x ParkRun +/- warmup and c/d
1 x 45 mins recovery (approx 8.5km)
1 x interval session which I’ve been rotating the following 4 sessions;
Week 1 - 4 x 1km @ 3:57 /km (3 min walk)
Week 2 - 4 x 1mile (2 @ 3:54 /km, 2 @ 4:10 /km (3 min walk)
Week 3 - 12 x 400m @ 3:30-3:45 /km (60s walk)
Week 4 - 3 x 2km @ 4:05 /km (3 min walk).
Most weeks the runs total 40-45km.
Thoughts?
Edit- forgot to add. I’m a fit and healthy 38yr old bloke. 5’10”. 78kg. I see absolutely no reason why I’m struggling to nail this.
Didn't really get to quite your level, but 45k a week is a good number, and you're progressing, so wouldn't suggest a radical programme change -
Marginal gains might be more beneficial, two obvious ones:
1) Tons of data on Nike Vaporfly now that these do improve times substantially for all levels of runner.
2) Have you had a proper running assessment from a real coach (not necessarily a gait assessment for shoes fitting on a treadmill). Helped me enormously.
Marginal gains might be more beneficial, two obvious ones:
1) Tons of data on Nike Vaporfly now that these do improve times substantially for all levels of runner.
2) Have you had a proper running assessment from a real coach (not necessarily a gait assessment for shoes fitting on a treadmill). Helped me enormously.
Just having a brief look and having recently completed a level 2 lydiard coaching program I'd say you need to be doing more sub threshold running and less fast paced stuff... Sounds upside down I know but if you do a bit of digging on lydiard's principles it makes sense.... And it DOES work... In our group we've got 4 kids in the top 10 endurance runners in Britain!
JapanRed said:
Hi all,
After a bit of advice. I’ve been trying for the past 18 months to get under 20 min at the 5km distance.
Jan 22 PB was 21:27
Jan 23 PB was 20:23
2 weeks ago I did 20:07
All above at local flat ParkRuns.
I know people will say I’m improving and should be happy, and I am. But I’m getting a bit impatient now. I’m doing the Great North Run in Sept so will be switching my training to focus on that in mid June.
So ideally want to nail sub 20k in next 6 weeks!
Current training is as follows;
1 x 90 mins long run. Steady for first hour. Push last 30 mins. Usually end up doing about 18km.
1 x ParkRun +/- warmup and c/d
1 x 45 mins recovery (approx 8.5km)
1 x interval session which I’ve been rotating the following 4 sessions;
Week 1 - 4 x 1km @ 3:57 /km (3 min walk)
Week 2 - 4 x 1mile (2 @ 3:54 /km, 2 @ 4:10 /km (3 min walk)
Week 3 - 12 x 400m @ 3:30-3:45 /km (60s walk)
Week 4 - 3 x 2km @ 4:05 /km (3 min walk).
Most weeks the runs total 40-45km.
Thoughts?
Edit- forgot to add. I’m a fit and healthy 38yr old bloke. 5’10”. 78kg. I see absolutely no reason why I’m struggling to nail this.
Your mileage looks enough. How fast are your 90 mins run? I would suggest keeping above 8/mins a mile so you recover for the next session. After a bit of advice. I’ve been trying for the past 18 months to get under 20 min at the 5km distance.
Jan 22 PB was 21:27
Jan 23 PB was 20:23
2 weeks ago I did 20:07
All above at local flat ParkRuns.
I know people will say I’m improving and should be happy, and I am. But I’m getting a bit impatient now. I’m doing the Great North Run in Sept so will be switching my training to focus on that in mid June.
So ideally want to nail sub 20k in next 6 weeks!
Current training is as follows;
1 x 90 mins long run. Steady for first hour. Push last 30 mins. Usually end up doing about 18km.
1 x ParkRun +/- warmup and c/d
1 x 45 mins recovery (approx 8.5km)
1 x interval session which I’ve been rotating the following 4 sessions;
Week 1 - 4 x 1km @ 3:57 /km (3 min walk)
Week 2 - 4 x 1mile (2 @ 3:54 /km, 2 @ 4:10 /km (3 min walk)
Week 3 - 12 x 400m @ 3:30-3:45 /km (60s walk)
Week 4 - 3 x 2km @ 4:05 /km (3 min walk).
Most weeks the runs total 40-45km.
Thoughts?
Edit- forgot to add. I’m a fit and healthy 38yr old bloke. 5’10”. 78kg. I see absolutely no reason why I’m struggling to nail this.
On your intervals the pace is correct for a sub 20 5km but I think your 3 min rest is too long. I do 1km at 3:55 pace then 90 seconds slow jog recovery then go again for 6 times. I'm no expert I've only gone sub 20 3 times in the last year.
Also at 5ft10 and 78kg you could probably loose a few kilos to gain speed. Try reducing beer intake (if you drink)
I'd also suggest targeting a parkrun and then resting on Wed, Thursday, Friday so you have fresh legs.
6x1km with 120s walk, alternate weekly with
12x0.5km with 60s or
15x400m with 45s
I try and do one of the above plus a hard parkrun or tempo 10km per week.
Then just easy 10km runs at 5:20-5:30 min per km the other days, maybe one longer run a week but not that important for a 5km imo (but useful for your HM).
To mix it up try doing minutes on/off - hard, then ‘float’ - so not exactly jogging! Surprising how fast these sessions can be - I’ve almost matched my 5km and 10km PB times (Garmin measured / unofficially obvs).
When you ran 20:07 what were your splits? Maybe try and get someone to run with you to help squeeze every last second out! Sounds like you are pretty much there tbh.
12x0.5km with 60s or
15x400m with 45s
I try and do one of the above plus a hard parkrun or tempo 10km per week.
Then just easy 10km runs at 5:20-5:30 min per km the other days, maybe one longer run a week but not that important for a 5km imo (but useful for your HM).
To mix it up try doing minutes on/off - hard, then ‘float’ - so not exactly jogging! Surprising how fast these sessions can be - I’ve almost matched my 5km and 10km PB times (Garmin measured / unofficially obvs).
When you ran 20:07 what were your splits? Maybe try and get someone to run with you to help squeeze every last second out! Sounds like you are pretty much there tbh.
Edited by cslwannabe on Tuesday 2nd May 22:57
PeteinSQ said:
You're probably capable of doing sub 20 now. I've done a sub 20 and what pushed me on to do it was running a park run with someone that could do a sub 20.
Do they ever do paced park runs where you go? I reckon you could squeeze out the 8 seconds you need if you had someone to chase.
This is when I am at my fastest too Do they ever do paced park runs where you go? I reckon you could squeeze out the 8 seconds you need if you had someone to chase.
Not that I am close to sub 20 minute 5km’s
I am quite short and was happy to be sub 30, but despite feeling like I push myself on lone runs, if there are other people running faster than me that’s when I’ve had my fastest times
Ive started an online FIIT membership and a lot of the classes on there are geared towards runners for improvement of strength/balance etc - is that worth considering?
Ive been adding 40mins of hard Pilates a few times a week
Thanks all, some great advice.
To respond to a few points;
- The PB’s are in Vaporflys already.
- I have used a running coach in the past who was the one who devised my current plan.
- I’ll be increasing volume and incorporating more sub threshold work once I start the GNR training in 6ish weeks.
- @Tim330. My long runs are just over 8min/mile pace. I try reducing my rest period in intervals but it’s likely to reduce the quality of the workout as I currently need that rest.
- Agree that I could get down to 73-75kg in a perfect world. Might try and lose a bit.
- Also I have wanted to do some weekly leg weights in the gym for a while so I’ll look into that.
- @cslwannabe the splits were as per the pic below.
- Agree with those that said that I’ve probably got sub 20 in me now as 7/8s is nothing. In perfect conditions with no wind etc it might be possible.
To respond to a few points;
- The PB’s are in Vaporflys already.
- I have used a running coach in the past who was the one who devised my current plan.
- I’ll be increasing volume and incorporating more sub threshold work once I start the GNR training in 6ish weeks.
- @Tim330. My long runs are just over 8min/mile pace. I try reducing my rest period in intervals but it’s likely to reduce the quality of the workout as I currently need that rest.
- Agree that I could get down to 73-75kg in a perfect world. Might try and lose a bit.
- Also I have wanted to do some weekly leg weights in the gym for a while so I’ll look into that.
- @cslwannabe the splits were as per the pic below.
- Agree with those that said that I’ve probably got sub 20 in me now as 7/8s is nothing. In perfect conditions with no wind etc it might be possible.
Losing a couple of kgs would help. I'm 6'1" and about 76kg at the moment. At my fastest, I was down at about 70kg. It makes a massive difference and is free speed.
Your volume looks good, as does your speedwork - nothing there screams out as lacking.
One thing I think really helps for both 5k and 10k is intervals with hard rest periods - less for physical training gains and more for understanding how pacing feels and how your body behaves - knowing exactly where that fine line between "I can hold this pace" and "this is emptying the tanks too fast" lies is invaluable. Something like 2km @ 3.5x, 400m @ 5.00, repeat 3 times - gets you used to going at above your goal pace and how that feels, plus the benefit of knowing you can hit your goal, just need to get rid of the rest periods.
Pacing is also incredibly important - but your last attempt looks pretty spot on, you just left yourself a bit much to do - a dose of HTFU should get you there.
Your volume looks good, as does your speedwork - nothing there screams out as lacking.
One thing I think really helps for both 5k and 10k is intervals with hard rest periods - less for physical training gains and more for understanding how pacing feels and how your body behaves - knowing exactly where that fine line between "I can hold this pace" and "this is emptying the tanks too fast" lies is invaluable. Something like 2km @ 3.5x, 400m @ 5.00, repeat 3 times - gets you used to going at above your goal pace and how that feels, plus the benefit of knowing you can hit your goal, just need to get rid of the rest periods.
Pacing is also incredibly important - but your last attempt looks pretty spot on, you just left yourself a bit much to do - a dose of HTFU should get you there.
@JapanRed I found your 20:07 parkrun on Strava! It’s well judged. York is fast but busy, so need to be near the front to avoid running extra distance! Do they still have pacers from time to time? I ran a similar time there to you when I was trying to go sub 20 for the first time - the pacer that day was really helpful and encouraging. I just dropped off in the last km. That’s why I like 6x1km as my staple session, to give a bit of strength in reserve.
Don’t worry too much about weight. I’m 49, the wrong side of 80kg and managed a sub 90 HM and sub 19 parkrun in the last 18 months after years of wondering if I ever would (been close to both many times over a 3 or 4 year period).
Main thing is to enjoy it. Those PBs happened to come on days when I wasn’t specifically thinking that would be the day they happened - I was just running them as hard as I could and near the end of both realised I had a decent chance of getting my target times. On plenty of other occasions I’d gone all out chasing times in races only to fall short.
Don’t worry too much about weight. I’m 49, the wrong side of 80kg and managed a sub 90 HM and sub 19 parkrun in the last 18 months after years of wondering if I ever would (been close to both many times over a 3 or 4 year period).
Main thing is to enjoy it. Those PBs happened to come on days when I wasn’t specifically thinking that would be the day they happened - I was just running them as hard as I could and near the end of both realised I had a decent chance of getting my target times. On plenty of other occasions I’d gone all out chasing times in races only to fall short.
JapanRed said:
Thanks all, some great advice.
To respond to a few points;
- The PB’s are in Vaporflys already.
- I have used a running coach in the past who was the one who devised my current plan.
- I’ll be increasing volume and incorporating more sub threshold work once I start the GNR training in 6ish weeks.
- @Tim330. My long runs are just over 8min/mile pace. I try reducing my rest period in intervals but it’s likely to reduce the quality of the workout as I currently need that rest.
- Agree that I could get down to 73-75kg in a perfect world. Might try and lose a bit.
- Also I have wanted to do some weekly leg weights in the gym for a while so I’ll look into that.
- @cslwannabe the splits were as per the pic below.
- Agree with those that said that I’ve probably got sub 20 in me now as 7/8s is nothing. In perfect conditions with no wind etc it might be possible.
I would instead reduce the speed of the interval to say 4:00 to 4:05 per km and keep to 90 second rest. You don't want heart rate to drop and want to simulate race conditions as much as possible. When this becomes comfortable increase the pace slightly.To respond to a few points;
- The PB’s are in Vaporflys already.
- I have used a running coach in the past who was the one who devised my current plan.
- I’ll be increasing volume and incorporating more sub threshold work once I start the GNR training in 6ish weeks.
- @Tim330. My long runs are just over 8min/mile pace. I try reducing my rest period in intervals but it’s likely to reduce the quality of the workout as I currently need that rest.
- Agree that I could get down to 73-75kg in a perfect world. Might try and lose a bit.
- Also I have wanted to do some weekly leg weights in the gym for a while so I’ll look into that.
- @cslwannabe the splits were as per the pic below.
- Agree with those that said that I’ve probably got sub 20 in me now as 7/8s is nothing. In perfect conditions with no wind etc it might be possible.
Slow slow slow. Can never be slow enough. My weekly 10 miler is 9.20.
Tempo, 30-40 mins at 6.15 with a half mile warm/cool at each end.
Speed work targeting 5k’s worth of intervals at 18 seconds per 100 meters.
I’ll do a 4th run maybe 10k usually trial/hills whatever. Maybe a parkrun at 22 ish pace.
That keeps me in 17 min 5k/36 10k shape all year at 45. With very little injury risk due to never exceeding 25 ish miles. Granted I’m not targeting marathon distance.
Said it before but consistency is the key. Rain hail snow or shine. Improvements will be slow and steady.
Tempo, 30-40 mins at 6.15 with a half mile warm/cool at each end.
Speed work targeting 5k’s worth of intervals at 18 seconds per 100 meters.
I’ll do a 4th run maybe 10k usually trial/hills whatever. Maybe a parkrun at 22 ish pace.
That keeps me in 17 min 5k/36 10k shape all year at 45. With very little injury risk due to never exceeding 25 ish miles. Granted I’m not targeting marathon distance.
Said it before but consistency is the key. Rain hail snow or shine. Improvements will be slow and steady.
Looks like you are there if you can do 20:07 anyone can pick up 10-15 secs if the stars align.
A pacing strategy that works for you is also important. My best times have all started with a fast first km slower but similar middle 3 and a fast last. Find out what works for you.
A good indicator is to run 6 x 800m with 200m jog rec. your average pace for this session (not inc the jog recoveries) is usually pretty accurate for potential 5 k pace.
Oh yes, looking at your splits, you’re not going out hard enough and leaving too much to do later. There is fade in km 4 which often indicates an endurance issue. 3:55 / km would be a good target. Maybe you blow up, maybe not, you might just have to take a risk. It’s a great feeling to hit the last KM with a good 10-20 seconds in the bag for your target finish !
A pacing strategy that works for you is also important. My best times have all started with a fast first km slower but similar middle 3 and a fast last. Find out what works for you.
A good indicator is to run 6 x 800m with 200m jog rec. your average pace for this session (not inc the jog recoveries) is usually pretty accurate for potential 5 k pace.
Oh yes, looking at your splits, you’re not going out hard enough and leaving too much to do later. There is fade in km 4 which often indicates an endurance issue. 3:55 / km would be a good target. Maybe you blow up, maybe not, you might just have to take a risk. It’s a great feeling to hit the last KM with a good 10-20 seconds in the bag for your target finish !
Edited by Mankers on Friday 5th May 14:10
Thanks all,
- I reduced my rest from 3 to 2 mins during my intervals yesterday. Will keep trying to reduce and see how I get on.
- @Mankers - I tend to try to run all my races as negative splits but will try your positive split idea and see how I get on.
- @Camoradi - Thanks. I’ve got a my first ever 5k track race coming up in a couple of weeks. Fingers crossed.
- I reduced my rest from 3 to 2 mins during my intervals yesterday. Will keep trying to reduce and see how I get on.
- @Mankers - I tend to try to run all my races as negative splits but will try your positive split idea and see how I get on.
- @Camoradi - Thanks. I’ve got a my first ever 5k track race coming up in a couple of weeks. Fingers crossed.
Run less and do other hard cardio.
I’m 6’2, and when setting all my PBs was at 81kg. Parkrun PB is 18.46 on my undulating local course.
Biggest difference I got rather than just bashing out miles was to do a load of hard cardio, circuit training, HIIT stuff. Basically alternating between that and running to have 3-5 workouts a week.
All the serious runners I know do as many non running workouts and drills as runs.
Recovering from breaking ankle and getting fat at the moment so I’m only at about 23.30 for a 5k at the mo
I’m 6’2, and when setting all my PBs was at 81kg. Parkrun PB is 18.46 on my undulating local course.
Biggest difference I got rather than just bashing out miles was to do a load of hard cardio, circuit training, HIIT stuff. Basically alternating between that and running to have 3-5 workouts a week.
All the serious runners I know do as many non running workouts and drills as runs.
Recovering from breaking ankle and getting fat at the moment so I’m only at about 23.30 for a 5k at the mo
I've often wondered if I defy the laws of physics as I hustle 85kg of 5'6" around Longrun at 25:01 and the responses above re: weight suggest that might be the case!
Seems like responses above have it covered, but I enjoyed this vid recently - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cizOr2RWTzQ
Seems like responses above have it covered, but I enjoyed this vid recently - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cizOr2RWTzQ
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