NCAA Swimming Title
Discussion
Thomas beat an Olympic silver medallist and the medal ceremonies were very telling. The public is having its eyes opened.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10626265/...
Swimming World are not having any of it, they recognise the very obvious differences and advantages Thomas has from being male.
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/a-look-...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10626265/...
Swimming World are not having any of it, they recognise the very obvious differences and advantages Thomas has from being male.
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/a-look-...
I swim competitively despite my advancing years and am a big swimming fan. I have been reading about this story on various swimming news sites for the past few months.
I watched the ESPN coverage of the women's NCAA 500yd freestyle race yesterday on Youtube. Up until this point I was unsure what I really thought about the situation. Politically I'm quite liberal, there are more than a few on here who would call me 'woke' (if NP&E is anything to go by...), but having watched the video, I don't feel this is a fair situation for Lia's fellow competitors. Lia competed as Will Thomas up until freshman year (three years ago) if I remember correctly. The hormone therapy Lia is on means that her times are not as fast as Will's was, but the physical contrast between her and her competitors was stark. As mentioned here, her competitors are no joke, NCAAs is probably the top meet in the world for non-professional elite swimmers and she beat an Olympic finalist in distance freestyle and an Olympic medalist from the 400IM. However, compared to male swimmers, the winning time is pretty average - it converts to a 4.03 long course 400 free which is within the range of some 14/15 year old boys. I think she is also swimming the 200 and 100yds over the next few days, though I'm not sure she'll win those.
I will be interested to see what Lia does next. She is a senior, so will be graduating college and I wonder if she will try and make a bid for the US National Team for Worlds this year or Paris 2024. She'd have to improve her times to push her way into the team.
I watched the ESPN coverage of the women's NCAA 500yd freestyle race yesterday on Youtube. Up until this point I was unsure what I really thought about the situation. Politically I'm quite liberal, there are more than a few on here who would call me 'woke' (if NP&E is anything to go by...), but having watched the video, I don't feel this is a fair situation for Lia's fellow competitors. Lia competed as Will Thomas up until freshman year (three years ago) if I remember correctly. The hormone therapy Lia is on means that her times are not as fast as Will's was, but the physical contrast between her and her competitors was stark. As mentioned here, her competitors are no joke, NCAAs is probably the top meet in the world for non-professional elite swimmers and she beat an Olympic finalist in distance freestyle and an Olympic medalist from the 400IM. However, compared to male swimmers, the winning time is pretty average - it converts to a 4.03 long course 400 free which is within the range of some 14/15 year old boys. I think she is also swimming the 200 and 100yds over the next few days, though I'm not sure she'll win those.
I will be interested to see what Lia does next. She is a senior, so will be graduating college and I wonder if she will try and make a bid for the US National Team for Worlds this year or Paris 2024. She'd have to improve her times to push her way into the team.
A recent episode of Radio 4’s More or Less covered this (see: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct2dlb )
The premise is that testosterone in puberty is what makes the difference between biological males and biological females. Therefore, whatever a trans woman (who was born a biological male and has passed through puberty) does to limit current testosterone levels while competing, the gain has already been made.
The guy speaking - can’t remember his name - likens it to height being the key entry ticket to the NBA. You don’t get in if you’re not tall enough. But only once everyone who has a qualifying ticket is through the door, height is no longer the determinant if success. He sees the changes on the body as a result of testosterone in puberty as the entry ticket - all biological males have that benefit over biological females. So if you then transition from male to female you bring that biological advantage from day one.
I don’t see an easy answer. And this is a very emotive subject where the politics takes over a rational assessment of creating level playing fields.
The premise is that testosterone in puberty is what makes the difference between biological males and biological females. Therefore, whatever a trans woman (who was born a biological male and has passed through puberty) does to limit current testosterone levels while competing, the gain has already been made.
The guy speaking - can’t remember his name - likens it to height being the key entry ticket to the NBA. You don’t get in if you’re not tall enough. But only once everyone who has a qualifying ticket is through the door, height is no longer the determinant if success. He sees the changes on the body as a result of testosterone in puberty as the entry ticket - all biological males have that benefit over biological females. So if you then transition from male to female you bring that biological advantage from day one.
I don’t see an easy answer. And this is a very emotive subject where the politics takes over a rational assessment of creating level playing fields.
OMITN said:
A recent episode of Radio 4’s More or Less covered this (see: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct2dlb )
The premise is that testosterone in puberty is what makes the difference between biological males and biological females. Therefore, whatever a trans woman (who was born a biological male and has passed through puberty) does to limit current testosterone levels while competing, the gain has already been made.
The guy speaking - can’t remember his name - likens it to height being the key entry ticket to the NBA. You don’t get in if you’re not tall enough. But only once everyone who has a qualifying ticket is through the door, height is no longer the determinant if success. He sees the changes on the body as a result of testosterone in puberty as the entry ticket - all biological males have that benefit over biological females. So if you then transition from male to female you bring that biological advantage from day one.
I don’t see an easy answer. And this is a very emotive subject where the politics takes over a rational assessment of creating level playing fields.
What you have said in your third paragraph is absolutely true, that you cannot reverse the effects of a male puberty. There should be two categories in all sports - Open and Female.The premise is that testosterone in puberty is what makes the difference between biological males and biological females. Therefore, whatever a trans woman (who was born a biological male and has passed through puberty) does to limit current testosterone levels while competing, the gain has already been made.
The guy speaking - can’t remember his name - likens it to height being the key entry ticket to the NBA. You don’t get in if you’re not tall enough. But only once everyone who has a qualifying ticket is through the door, height is no longer the determinant if success. He sees the changes on the body as a result of testosterone in puberty as the entry ticket - all biological males have that benefit over biological females. So if you then transition from male to female you bring that biological advantage from day one.
I don’t see an easy answer. And this is a very emotive subject where the politics takes over a rational assessment of creating level playing fields.
If the guy discussing it on R4 was Ross Tucker, then he really knows his stuff.
World Rugby has said that women's rugby is for females only, yet Australian and English rugby have said it is open to anyone who identifies as a woman, which is absolutely mad.
andyA700 said:
What you have said in your third paragraph is absolutely true, that you cannot reverse the effects of a male puberty. There should be two categories in all sports - Open and Female.
If the guy discussing it on R4 was Ross Tucker, then he really knows his stuff.
World Rugby has said that women's rugby is for females only, yet Australian and English rugby have said it is open to anyone who identifies as a woman, which is absolutely mad.
Just checked. Yes it was him. It’s only a short episode but worth a listen. If the guy discussing it on R4 was Ross Tucker, then he really knows his stuff.
World Rugby has said that women's rugby is for females only, yet Australian and English rugby have said it is open to anyone who identifies as a woman, which is absolutely mad.
Highway Star said:
Interestingly I saw that a transgender male swimmer (born female, identifies as male) has made the final of the 100yd free along with Lia Thomas.
He hasn't been taking any hormone therapy in his transition, so can still swim in women's events.
A female competing in a female event - not really surprising is it?He hasn't been taking any hormone therapy in his transition, so can still swim in women's events.
NDA said:
Lia Thomas has won the NCAA Swimming title. A woman who reportedly doesn't cover her male genitals in female changing rooms. Apparently she is 'dominating' women's swimming at the moment.
If anyone has problem with a large, powerful human male who has enjoyed all the physical advantages that brings, failing to achieve anything in the mens competitions then deciding to "be a lady", switching to the womens competition and beating all records..Well, you can suck her dick.
Dromedary66 said:
NDA said:
Lia Thomas has won the NCAA Swimming title. A woman who reportedly doesn't cover her male genitals in female changing rooms. Apparently she is 'dominating' women's swimming at the moment.
If anyone has problem with a large, powerful human male who has enjoyed all the physical advantages that brings, failing to achieve anything in the mens competitions then deciding to "be a lady", switching to the womens competition and beating all records..Well, you can suck her dick.
Dromedary66 said:
If anyone has problem with a large, powerful human male who has enjoyed all the physical advantages that brings, failing to achieve anything in the mens competitions then deciding to "be a lady", switching to the womens competition and beating all records..
Well, you can suck her dick.
Quite. Hopefully this egregious injustice will prompt some kind of resolution to this idiocy.Well, you can suck her dick.
There has been a lot of reporting about the fact that this fully intact person does not bother to hide her male genitals in women's changing rooms. Also does not hide the fact that 'she' finds women attractive and is dating women.
In a way I am sort of glad 'she' competed as it raises the important issues of female safe spaces and female sports. 'She' seems to think that her rights trump all others - the arrogance is staggering.
In a way I am sort of glad 'she' competed as it raises the important issues of female safe spaces and female sports. 'She' seems to think that her rights trump all others - the arrogance is staggering.
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