Dementia caused by contact in sport.
Discussion
Dementia is a scary condition to say the least. With cases being linked to heading a football or the scrummage in a game of rugby, will 2021 be the year where this is properly looked at? It is the first legal case is where claims of repeated blows to the head have caused dementia when playing rugby.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55201237
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55201237
Edited by rjfp1962 on Tuesday 8th December 18:45
It's clearly been coming to rugby. And it has certainly been signalled in rugby union given the noticeable rule changes around contact to the head - I watch both codes and rugby league seems to be behind on this IMO.
If you haven't watch the film Concussion - it's about Bennet Omalu's "discovery" of CTE in NFL players and what happened as a result (deny, deny, deny, can't hide from it was pretty much what happened with the NFL themselves).
Bear in mind that the average amount of ball-in-play time in NFL is only 11 minutes (with 3 different teams per side) plus the protective equipment and they have this issue vs 35 mins ball-in-play in rugby union (which I don't think accounts for the engage/set in the scrums) and 62 minutes in rugby league, I suspect that this may be the tip of an iceberg for rugby.
If you haven't watch the film Concussion - it's about Bennet Omalu's "discovery" of CTE in NFL players and what happened as a result (deny, deny, deny, can't hide from it was pretty much what happened with the NFL themselves).
Bear in mind that the average amount of ball-in-play time in NFL is only 11 minutes (with 3 different teams per side) plus the protective equipment and they have this issue vs 35 mins ball-in-play in rugby union (which I don't think accounts for the engage/set in the scrums) and 62 minutes in rugby league, I suspect that this may be the tip of an iceberg for rugby.
I played in the forwards as a teenager. Mostly Union (up to county level), but some rugby league. I played very physically -running hard, getting to the tackle/breakdown quickly, I was known for tackling frequently/hard, enthusiastically rooking and mauling etc.
I suffered concussion a few times, but there was no formal period of suspension before reuming play. I even carried on playing a couple of times.
The worst occasion was playing League, at the age of 18 (possibly got hit in the head by a shoulder as I ran in for a tackle) I vomited soon afterwards and had an aching head for weeks -it really put me off League. I lost my appetite for it, and drifted away from Union when I was at uni (partly because I wasn't into the social scene). It was probably for the best - I could have done myself a lot of damage and couldn't have maintained the same style of play anyway.
The collisions in League at Pro level are hard. Big lads running at speed straight into each other.
Union scrum collisions at Pro level must be very hard.
It was great fun to play at times, but it wouldn't be that surprising that it could cause brain injuries.
I suffered concussion a few times, but there was no formal period of suspension before reuming play. I even carried on playing a couple of times.
The worst occasion was playing League, at the age of 18 (possibly got hit in the head by a shoulder as I ran in for a tackle) I vomited soon afterwards and had an aching head for weeks -it really put me off League. I lost my appetite for it, and drifted away from Union when I was at uni (partly because I wasn't into the social scene). It was probably for the best - I could have done myself a lot of damage and couldn't have maintained the same style of play anyway.
The collisions in League at Pro level are hard. Big lads running at speed straight into each other.
Union scrum collisions at Pro level must be very hard.
It was great fun to play at times, but it wouldn't be that surprising that it could cause brain injuries.
Edited by MC Bodge on Tuesday 8th December 19:16
croyde said:
As a school kid in the early 70s, we had to stand still in a muddy field whilst a fat overweight PE teacher threw a completely waterlogged leather football at our heads.
Big trouble if we flinched.
Still suffer from ligament damage on my kneck playing 2nd row as a kid in the mid 80s. Comes back to haunt me if I don't exercises Big trouble if we flinched.
.
croyde said:
As a school kid in the early 70s, we had to stand still in a muddy field whilst a fat overweight PE teacher threw a completely waterlogged leather football at our heads.
Big trouble if we flinched.
Soon you won't remember that. Big trouble if we flinched.
I've not read the article but is this guy suing someone for a game he chose to play?
Dam saw some interviews and it was hard watching especially when their wife's saying that they could needing special care homes at 50! Looking at american football having to rethink the damage they are taking and they have all the padding! What ever happens think they are going to reevaluate rugby somehow.
Baron Greenback said:
Dam saw some interviews and it was hard watching especially when their wife's saying that they could needing special care homes at 50! Looking at american football having to rethink the damage they are taking and they have all the padding! What ever happens think they are going to reevaluate rugby somehow.
American football padding encourages full-on going in hard, including with the head.The way that the safe feeling in modern cars allows people to drive with less attention.
Spidersleg said:
croyde said:
As a school kid in the early 70s, we had to stand still in a muddy field whilst a fat overweight PE teacher threw a completely waterlogged leather football at our heads.
Big trouble if we flinched.
Soon you won't remember that. Big trouble if we flinched.
I've not read the article but is this guy suing someone for a game he chose to play?
The interview with Steve Thompson was a really sobering read and I fear that we'll be hearing a lot more of this sort of thing over the next few years. I'd be really worried if I were an ex pro or still playing for that matter.
It would be interesting to know how various sports compare for this issue.
Eg. Boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling, judo, MMA, rugby, Aussie Rules, football, lacrosse(?), Ice Hockey, motorsport like motocross or banger racing even.
I suppose it all depends upon the magnitude and frequency of the impacts, as well as the length of careers. Different people will have heads that are more or less resilient and playing positions will also have different exposure.
Eg. Boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling, judo, MMA, rugby, Aussie Rules, football, lacrosse(?), Ice Hockey, motorsport like motocross or banger racing even.
I suppose it all depends upon the magnitude and frequency of the impacts, as well as the length of careers. Different people will have heads that are more or less resilient and playing positions will also have different exposure.
MC Bodge said:
American football padding encourages full-on going in hard, including with the head.
The way that the safe feeling in modern cars allows people to drive with less attention.
Researchers: 96% of ex-NFL players had brain diseaseThe way that the safe feeling in modern cars allows people to drive with less attention.
https://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/30/us/nfl-concussi...
Quhet said:
If you've not read it, don't make stupid comments designed to wind people up.
The interview with Steve Thompson was a really sobering read and I fear that we'll be hearing a lot more of this sort of thing over the next few years. I'd be really worried if I were an ex pro or still playing for that matter.
I read the article and seems I'm right. He is trying to sue someone for a game he chose to play. The interview with Steve Thompson was a really sobering read and I fear that we'll be hearing a lot more of this sort of thing over the next few years. I'd be really worried if I were an ex pro or still playing for that matter.
Spidersleg said:
Quhet said:
If you've not read it, don't make stupid comments designed to wind people up.
The interview with Steve Thompson was a really sobering read and I fear that we'll be hearing a lot more of this sort of thing over the next few years. I'd be really worried if I were an ex pro or still playing for that matter.
I read the article and seems I'm right. He is trying to sue someone for a game he chose to play. The interview with Steve Thompson was a really sobering read and I fear that we'll be hearing a lot more of this sort of thing over the next few years. I'd be really worried if I were an ex pro or still playing for that matter.
Saying "he chose to play" (which is essentially quoting the legal maxim "volenti non fit injuria" (to one who volunteers, no harm is done)) will only apply to the extent that the participant had full knowledge of the nature and extent of the risk of harm.
In other words, if the player could reasonably have known the risk of harm but chose to play anyway, they will have no claim.
The key question is whether the governing bodies should reasonably have been aware of the risk of head injuries and should have done more to make players aware, or to introduce measures to mitigate the effects.
The standard by which they will be judged is the state of knowledge at the particular time that the injury was suffered. In this respect, Dr. Bennet Omalu reported on the link between early onset dementia and probable Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE) as long ago as 2005. In 2011, former NFL players settled their claims for $1bn.
Despite this, the Head Injury Assessment only became mandatory in 2015. In the meantime, players have continued to increase in size and power and training and playing intensity has also increased.
I can't see how anyone can suggest that players like Steve Thompson were fully informed of the risks they were taking.
I think there is clearly a very serious point to be addressed here, not just for rugby but also any other contact sports. The fact that these guys are approaching early middle age with dementia is just not on.
R56Cooper said:
You're right in that he is suing the organisation for a game that he chose to play but I think you have misunderstood the point.
Saying "he chose to play" (which is essentially quoting the legal maxim "volenti non fit injuria" (to one who volunteers, no harm is done)) will only apply to the extent that the participant had full knowledge of the nature and extent of the risk of harm.
In other words, if the player could reasonably have known the risk of harm but chose to play anyway, they will have no claim.
The key question is whether the governing bodies should reasonably have been aware of the risk of head injuries and should have done more to make players aware, or to introduce measures to mitigate the effects.
The standard by which they will be judged is the state of knowledge at the particular time that the injury was suffered. In this respect, Dr. Bennet Omalu reported on the link between early onset dementia and probable Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE) as long ago as 2005. In 2011, former NFL players settled their claims for $1bn.
Despite this, the Head Injury Assessment only became mandatory in 2015. In the meantime, players have continued to increase in size and power and training and playing intensity has also increased.
I can't see how anyone can suggest that players like Steve Thompson were fully informed of the risks they were taking.
I think there is clearly a very serious point to be addressed here, not just for rugby but also any other contact sports. The fact that these guys are approaching early middle age with dementia is just not on.
Good and interesting post.Saying "he chose to play" (which is essentially quoting the legal maxim "volenti non fit injuria" (to one who volunteers, no harm is done)) will only apply to the extent that the participant had full knowledge of the nature and extent of the risk of harm.
In other words, if the player could reasonably have known the risk of harm but chose to play anyway, they will have no claim.
The key question is whether the governing bodies should reasonably have been aware of the risk of head injuries and should have done more to make players aware, or to introduce measures to mitigate the effects.
The standard by which they will be judged is the state of knowledge at the particular time that the injury was suffered. In this respect, Dr. Bennet Omalu reported on the link between early onset dementia and probable Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE) as long ago as 2005. In 2011, former NFL players settled their claims for $1bn.
Despite this, the Head Injury Assessment only became mandatory in 2015. In the meantime, players have continued to increase in size and power and training and playing intensity has also increased.
I can't see how anyone can suggest that players like Steve Thompson were fully informed of the risks they were taking.
I think there is clearly a very serious point to be addressed here, not just for rugby but also any other contact sports. The fact that these guys are approaching early middle age with dementia is just not on.
The question of what mitigation measures the relevant governing body should have introduced will I'm sure have an emotive debate around it. You can already see it developing, with some holding opinions that athletes knew what they were getting into, and others speaking from the fairly horrific experience of early onset dementia.
It is terrible for Steve Thompson and his family.
But sadly there will be more coming forward as the medical science improves and more become aware.
Rugby union is trying to mitigate head injuries by making a tackle illegal over the shoulder.
We have been forever encouraged to tackle low, and keeping your head on the correct side (away from danger), but we don't.
At community level rugby head injuries are far less than the professionals. But, when we get them players and coaches are still not following the Head injury protocols.
As a referee at the lowest levels of rugby if we suspect a player has had a knock on the head we instruct them to leave the field, and can take no further part in the game. They are then supposed to follow a min of a 3 week return to playing path, but I suspect this is often ignored by the player and club coaches at times. The complaints we get when we inform them they are to take no further part happen too often.
I don't agree with the "head injury assessment" professional players go off for for up to 10 mins. They should change this so that they are protected from maybe getting another in the same match.
George North is a magnificent player. He has had at least 3 heavy blows to his head that I am aware of and worry for him in 5-15 years time. So are Wales and Northampton, and whoever he plays for now going to put money aside for his care in the future?
But sadly there will be more coming forward as the medical science improves and more become aware.
Rugby union is trying to mitigate head injuries by making a tackle illegal over the shoulder.
We have been forever encouraged to tackle low, and keeping your head on the correct side (away from danger), but we don't.
At community level rugby head injuries are far less than the professionals. But, when we get them players and coaches are still not following the Head injury protocols.
As a referee at the lowest levels of rugby if we suspect a player has had a knock on the head we instruct them to leave the field, and can take no further part in the game. They are then supposed to follow a min of a 3 week return to playing path, but I suspect this is often ignored by the player and club coaches at times. The complaints we get when we inform them they are to take no further part happen too often.
I don't agree with the "head injury assessment" professional players go off for for up to 10 mins. They should change this so that they are protected from maybe getting another in the same match.
George North is a magnificent player. He has had at least 3 heavy blows to his head that I am aware of and worry for him in 5-15 years time. So are Wales and Northampton, and whoever he plays for now going to put money aside for his care in the future?
MC Bodge said:
It would be interesting to know how various sports compare for this issue.
Eg. Boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling, judo, MMA, rugby, Aussie Rules, football, lacrosse(?), Ice Hockey, motorsport like motocross or banger racing even.
I suppose it all depends upon the magnitude and frequency of the impacts, as well as the length of careers. Different people will have heads that are more or less resilient and playing positions will also have different exposure.
Some of the wrestling stuff from the mid to late 1990's makes for grim viewing now...... Eg. Boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling, judo, MMA, rugby, Aussie Rules, football, lacrosse(?), Ice Hockey, motorsport like motocross or banger racing even.
I suppose it all depends upon the magnitude and frequency of the impacts, as well as the length of careers. Different people will have heads that are more or less resilient and playing positions will also have different exposure.
One match I recall, between Mankind and The Rock, where the former takes about a dozen unprotected whacks to the head with a folding chair whilst handcuffed.
Struggling to find footage of it on YouTube, as it happens.
As a former player, I have my own views on this.
On the one hand, everybody who plays knows you take some knocks and no one has a gun held to their heads to force them to play.
Equally, when - if ever - did the RFU know there was an issue?
On that basis, I'm uncomfortable with potential legal action
On the other hand, my heart goes out to those looking down the barrells of dementia in their 40s - the account of Alix Popham getting lost on a bike ride around the village where he lives is just heartbreaking
I suspect there will be some big changes coming to the game
On the one hand, everybody who plays knows you take some knocks and no one has a gun held to their heads to force them to play.
Equally, when - if ever - did the RFU know there was an issue?
On that basis, I'm uncomfortable with potential legal action
On the other hand, my heart goes out to those looking down the barrells of dementia in their 40s - the account of Alix Popham getting lost on a bike ride around the village where he lives is just heartbreaking
I suspect there will be some big changes coming to the game
It's not just significant blows to the head that need looking at.
Brain trauma occurs through the concussive effects of a major collision. Imagine tackling a flat out Manu Tuilagi on your try line and having to hit him high. The forces through the shoulders and neck up into the brain are significant.
I can see a ban on tackling above the hips introduced eventually. Ruck entry will be looked at as well.
Brain trauma occurs through the concussive effects of a major collision. Imagine tackling a flat out Manu Tuilagi on your try line and having to hit him high. The forces through the shoulders and neck up into the brain are significant.
I can see a ban on tackling above the hips introduced eventually. Ruck entry will be looked at as well.
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