Cricket - all time greats
Discussion
With Steve Smith now holding the 2nd highest Test average after Bradman, debate will surely commence about whether he is one of cricket's all time greats.
In my view it depends on how one defines "great" from a cricketing perspective.
On pure numbers then Smith is up there as an all time great. But by god he is ugly and boring to watch, and devoid of any excitement. I am glad I didn't have to watch him score 200+ on a flat wicket as I imagine watching the grass grow would be more entertaining.
For me as a batting fan, Brian Charles Lara is still the greatest I have ever had the pleasure of witnessing.
(with a soft spot for Graham Thorpe)
Who are yours?
In my view it depends on how one defines "great" from a cricketing perspective.
On pure numbers then Smith is up there as an all time great. But by god he is ugly and boring to watch, and devoid of any excitement. I am glad I didn't have to watch him score 200+ on a flat wicket as I imagine watching the grass grow would be more entertaining.
For me as a batting fan, Brian Charles Lara is still the greatest I have ever had the pleasure of witnessing.
(with a soft spot for Graham Thorpe)
Who are yours?
Does indeed depend on defining great.
Is it average
Runs scored
Strike rate (for entertainment purposes)
I would say Tendulkar is the greatest batsman of the modern era. Bradman stands alone since the game was so different then.
From an England only perspective I always liked watch Gower bat. He made batting very pretty. But probably KP from an entertainment point of view.
Lets see what his stats are when he hangs up his bat. Adam Voges averaged over 60 but he won't go down as a great.
For me as a cricket fan it would have to be Bradman & WG Grace one & two. Grace out scored all his compatriots of the day on uncovered cart tracks of a wicket. Not a great average but definitely an all time great along with The Don.
For me as a cricket fan it would have to be Bradman & WG Grace one & two. Grace out scored all his compatriots of the day on uncovered cart tracks of a wicket. Not a great average but definitely an all time great along with The Don.
He has such a good eye, its amazing really because his technique is awful. Not a great, yet. If he carries on like this for another 5-10 years, then he will have to be called a 'great'
I would like to see him against, Ambrose/Walsh, Donald/Pollock, Wasim/Waqar, but you can say that about any modern player.....
Great batsmen in the last 20 years for me would be Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting, Kallis and Sangakarra.
I would like to see him against, Ambrose/Walsh, Donald/Pollock, Wasim/Waqar, but you can say that about any modern player.....
Great batsmen in the last 20 years for me would be Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting, Kallis and Sangakarra.
Just from the SA side of things
Jacques Kallis
The rock. Quite simply that, in an extraordinary, marathon career as fully-fledged all-rounder (a dying art globally) for SA. Statistically, Kallis has huge claims to being best cricketer of all time, even if charisma and PR visibility wasn’t really his thing, ever so slightly limiting his affection in some circles. Tests: 165. Runs: 13,206 at 55.25. Wickets: 291 at 32.63.
—
Allan Donald
He’s the inevitable, main head-hunter, if you like, in this combo. “White Lightning” was devilishly quick and aggressive at his best, a true nightmare to face on a pitch with good carry and bounce. Tests: 72. Wickets: 330 at 22.25.
—
Also, lance clusener, Shaun pollock
Jacques Kallis
The rock. Quite simply that, in an extraordinary, marathon career as fully-fledged all-rounder (a dying art globally) for SA. Statistically, Kallis has huge claims to being best cricketer of all time, even if charisma and PR visibility wasn’t really his thing, ever so slightly limiting his affection in some circles. Tests: 165. Runs: 13,206 at 55.25. Wickets: 291 at 32.63.
—
Allan Donald
He’s the inevitable, main head-hunter, if you like, in this combo. “White Lightning” was devilishly quick and aggressive at his best, a true nightmare to face on a pitch with good carry and bounce. Tests: 72. Wickets: 330 at 22.25.
—
Also, lance clusener, Shaun pollock
Started following test cricket in the late 90s/early 2000s. From the players who have played since then my all time great list would include (in no particular order):
Lara
Tendulkar
Ponting
Sangakarra
Kallis
Warne
McGrath
Akram
Steyn
If Steve Smith continues doing what he’s doing for another 18-24 months he’ll easily fall into the same category.
Also if we’re including players across all formats I’d add AB Devilliers and Virat Kohli to the list.
Lara
Tendulkar
Ponting
Sangakarra
Kallis
Warne
McGrath
Akram
Steyn
If Steve Smith continues doing what he’s doing for another 18-24 months he’ll easily fall into the same category.
Also if we’re including players across all formats I’d add AB Devilliers and Virat Kohli to the list.
averages cannot be compared. dead covered pitches in the modern game and lack of consistent and numerous fast bowlers mean even those from the late 80's/early 90's cannot be compared with those after on stats alone.
anyway its not all about stats -i for one would say lara is the greatest batsmen of modern times over tendulkar. tendulkar in his early years was an exciting to watch player, but that quickly left him and he was incredibly boring and his stats are boosted by playing on easy paced subcontninteal pitches.
Lara was a tw*t and unreliable but oh so good to watch.
anyway its not all about stats -i for one would say lara is the greatest batsmen of modern times over tendulkar. tendulkar in his early years was an exciting to watch player, but that quickly left him and he was incredibly boring and his stats are boosted by playing on easy paced subcontninteal pitches.
Lara was a tw*t and unreliable but oh so good to watch.
David Gower for style and a certain contrariness which I find appealing. Chris Tavare for doggedness and contrariness. I always enjoyed watching Lara, but then watching Hick or Ramprakash batter really sub standard county pie-chuckers was also enjoyable. As far as bowlers go I Allan Donald and Glenn McGrath always promised and almost always delivered.
Lara for me was a far too selfish a player , He'd rather go for his own personal records that give the West indies the extra session to win the game at st Johns in 2004 . 751/5 they scored ! Anyone who puts themselves first instead of the team gets the thumbs down from me.
Best for me ,
Warne .. unbelievable could turn a ball on Marble
Sangakarra .. Top class performer & all round bloody good bloke , What are we going to do without him at Surrey next season ?
Ambrose ..Devastating pace & aggression & bowled with the swagger a premium fast bowler should
Best for me ,
Warne .. unbelievable could turn a ball on Marble
Sangakarra .. Top class performer & all round bloody good bloke , What are we going to do without him at Surrey next season ?
Ambrose ..Devastating pace & aggression & bowled with the swagger a premium fast bowler should
Black can man said:
Lara for me was a far too selfish a player , He'd rather go for his own personal records that give the West indies the extra session to win the game at st Johns in 2004 . 751/5 they scored ! Anyone who puts themselves first instead of the team gets the thumbs down from me.
Best for me ,
Warne .. unbelievable could turn a ball on Marble
Sangakarra .. Top class performer & all round bloody good bloke , What are we going to do without him at Surrey next season ?
Ambrose ..Devastating pace & aggression & bowled with the swagger a premium fast bowler should
tim ambrose? one of the many who robbed james foster of more test caps... are you drunk! Best for me ,
Warne .. unbelievable could turn a ball on Marble
Sangakarra .. Top class performer & all round bloody good bloke , What are we going to do without him at Surrey next season ?
Ambrose ..Devastating pace & aggression & bowled with the swagger a premium fast bowler should
Bradman stands alone, but the best batsmen I have seen (ie since 1981) are :
1, Tendulkar - a legend in all 3 forms of the game, with astonishing consistency over 20 years. Most international bowlers of the 90s and 00s agree that he was the best they played against. Weaknesses - None.
2, Lara - Surely the most entertaining batsman of all time. Amazing stats, but he never played for his average. A unique genius.Weaknesses- he always gave the bowler a chance, particularly if the ball was moving around.
3, Richards - My boyhood hero could dominate any bowling attack at any time he chose. His swagger & arrogance set him apart. Weaknesses - he wasn't always in the right mood, and never had to face the Windies own bowlers.
4, Ponting - A master batsman in all forms of the game who could attack, consolidate or defend as well as anyone. Incredible consistency at his peak. Weaknesses - a poor record in India, he didn't have to face Warne & McGrath and he payed for a bit too long which adversely affected his stats.
5,Dravid - The Wall. A master accumulator who scored the tough, hard runs throughout his career, while the rest of the Indian flat-track bullies flattered to deceive. Weaknesses - Not a destructive batsman.
As for Kallis, it's tough to argue with his stats but I always found him dull to watch, and he often played for his own average rather than the team. Sangakkara was a very fine player, but his stats are inflated by the extent to which he filled his boots against Bangladesh & Zimbabwe.
Smith & Root could turn out to be as good as any of my numbers 2-5, but it's still too soon to speak of them as great players. Root needs to score more big, match-winning hundreds.
1, Tendulkar - a legend in all 3 forms of the game, with astonishing consistency over 20 years. Most international bowlers of the 90s and 00s agree that he was the best they played against. Weaknesses - None.
2, Lara - Surely the most entertaining batsman of all time. Amazing stats, but he never played for his average. A unique genius.Weaknesses- he always gave the bowler a chance, particularly if the ball was moving around.
3, Richards - My boyhood hero could dominate any bowling attack at any time he chose. His swagger & arrogance set him apart. Weaknesses - he wasn't always in the right mood, and never had to face the Windies own bowlers.
4, Ponting - A master batsman in all forms of the game who could attack, consolidate or defend as well as anyone. Incredible consistency at his peak. Weaknesses - a poor record in India, he didn't have to face Warne & McGrath and he payed for a bit too long which adversely affected his stats.
5,Dravid - The Wall. A master accumulator who scored the tough, hard runs throughout his career, while the rest of the Indian flat-track bullies flattered to deceive. Weaknesses - Not a destructive batsman.
As for Kallis, it's tough to argue with his stats but I always found him dull to watch, and he often played for his own average rather than the team. Sangakkara was a very fine player, but his stats are inflated by the extent to which he filled his boots against Bangladesh & Zimbabwe.
Smith & Root could turn out to be as good as any of my numbers 2-5, but it's still too soon to speak of them as great players. Root needs to score more big, match-winning hundreds.
Edited by Bradgate on Thursday 28th December 16:33
The point about comparing averages is a very valid one. I remember Vaughan saying he'd got hold of one of Atherton's bats and felt the ones he used in his career were worth four runs on his average which is a huge amount and they played relatively closely together. Imagine the difference in a bat made in the 60's and today.
It's interesting how so many people have concentrated on batsmen. The one player of the modern era who is most definitely an all time great is Warne....Murali there are the controversies over his action.
It's interesting how so many people have concentrated on batsmen. The one player of the modern era who is most definitely an all time great is Warne....Murali there are the controversies over his action.
Good point about the bat sizes.
"In one hand, Barry Richards holds the bat with which he made 325 in a day for South Australia against Western Australia in November 1970. In the other, he holds the bat David Warner is using in the Adelaide Test this week."
http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/stor...
"In one hand, Barry Richards holds the bat with which he made 325 in a day for South Australia against Western Australia in November 1970. In the other, he holds the bat David Warner is using in the Adelaide Test this week."
http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/stor...
BlackLabel said:
Good point about the bat sizes.
"In one hand, Barry Richards holds the bat with which he made 325 in a day for South Australia against Western Australia in November 1970. In the other, he holds the bat David Warner is using in the Adelaide Test this week."
http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/stor...
"In one hand, Barry Richards holds the bat with which he made 325 in a day for South Australia against Western Australia in November 1970. In the other, he holds the bat David Warner is using in the Adelaide Test this week."
http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/stor...
Boycott played a stick of celery as well.
Seriously though , I thought my old G&M autograph was a bit on the thick side.
Cheib said:
The point about comparing averages is a very valid one. I remember Vaughan saying he'd got hold of one of Atherton's bats and felt the ones he used in his career were worth four runs on his average which is a huge amount and they played relatively closely together. Imagine the difference in a bat made in the 60's and today.
It's interesting how so many people have concentrated on batsmen. The one player of the modern era who is most definitely an all time great is Warne....Murali there are the controversies over his action.
This is a good point, I was a bowler i never used to enjoy glorious cover drives ,especially if i was bowling.It's interesting how so many people have concentrated on batsmen. The one player of the modern era who is most definitely an all time great is Warne....Murali there are the controversies over his action.
I think this is also the reason i'm not a huge 20/20 fan because the game is so batsman friendly.
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