How to make rugby better and reduce injuries
Discussion
A lot has been made of ever increasing injuries in rugby and the ever increasing size of players - how would you change this and make matches more entertaining for me and thee?
Several ideas have been put forward:
to reduce player injuries ban replacements
pro
- players are forced to train to play for 80 minutes, ie they'll play at a slightly lower intensity which in turn should/could mean less injuries.
- injured players are inspected by independent medical staff (similar to HIA at the moment), if injured players leave the field spaces appear which in turn means more opportunities for scoring
con
- players will try and hide injuries (hence the need for independent assessors), but they look to hide injuries anyway
- uncontested scrums will take spectacle away
With the increasing length of time taken to take place-kicks (look at vitus dancing Biggar for example) should all kicks now be drop goals or only allowed to take 15 seconds before you start your run-up?
A coloured patch on a prop's jersey where the opposite number has to bind (makes it easier to ref).
Hookers MUST attempt to hook
Re-introduce rucking, if you're lying on the wrong side you're faie game to be used as a doormat
Several ideas have been put forward:
to reduce player injuries ban replacements
pro
- players are forced to train to play for 80 minutes, ie they'll play at a slightly lower intensity which in turn should/could mean less injuries.
- injured players are inspected by independent medical staff (similar to HIA at the moment), if injured players leave the field spaces appear which in turn means more opportunities for scoring
con
- players will try and hide injuries (hence the need for independent assessors), but they look to hide injuries anyway
- uncontested scrums will take spectacle away
With the increasing length of time taken to take place-kicks (look at vitus dancing Biggar for example) should all kicks now be drop goals or only allowed to take 15 seconds before you start your run-up?
A coloured patch on a prop's jersey where the opposite number has to bind (makes it easier to ref).
Hookers MUST attempt to hook
Re-introduce rucking, if you're lying on the wrong side you're faie game to be used as a doormat
Youbwant to stop injuries but reintroduce rucking which can lead to stamping/raking?
Did you know that there was less actual play/time of ball in play per wc match than a nfl game.
At the end of the day, the game is a collision sport so unless they start wearing alot more padding there will always be injuries. Check out american football in the 50s amd the equipmeny used then. The helmets now are starting to.encorporate lots more design features but even they cant figure out how to stop serious injury
Did you know that there was less actual play/time of ball in play per wc match than a nfl game.
At the end of the day, the game is a collision sport so unless they start wearing alot more padding there will always be injuries. Check out american football in the 50s amd the equipmeny used then. The helmets now are starting to.encorporate lots more design features but even they cant figure out how to stop serious injury
lemmingjames said:
Youbwant to stop injuries but reintroduce rucking which can lead to stamping/raking?
Did you know that there was less actual play/time of ball in play per wc match than a nfl game.
At the end of the day, the game is a collision sport so unless they start wearing alot more padding there will always be injuries. Check out american football in the 50s amd the equipmeny used then. The helmets now are starting to.encorporate lots more design features but even they cant figure out how to stop serious injury
I read that the body armour increases the seriousness of injuries. It was a report from an Australian university. I was researching an injury I suffered years ago, and the copies of X-rays were very moreish. Did you know that there was less actual play/time of ball in play per wc match than a nfl game.
At the end of the day, the game is a collision sport so unless they start wearing alot more padding there will always be injuries. Check out american football in the 50s amd the equipmeny used then. The helmets now are starting to.encorporate lots more design features but even they cant figure out how to stop serious injury
At the moment the RFUs accept that injuries will occur. How long they will be able to continue is open to offers. We already have non-contact rugby being played by, not to put too fine a point on it, people my age. There is walking rugby, and that's not front row rugby.
I've got a 28-year-old son playing and he's missed 4 months of the season through yet another concussion. I agree with Jones' comments about Sexton. He's just returned to the first team, although lost his captaincy, and he's modified his game play, trying to keep his head out of danger. But he's a second row, so spends the majority of his time in rucks.
My biased feeling is that the rules should change for rucks. I see, and have video evidence, of knees being used in rucks. Not only that, players come in at speed to players who cannot move out of the way. I'm not talking about clearing out a ruck, but going in. Refs see it but, it seems, it is allowed.
The laws have changed gradually over time in response to injuries. But there is research which suggests more should be done.
Concussion has been a pretty hot topic over recent years I don't recall it being such a big thing in my younger playing days. Since I've been injured and will miss the rest of this season and probably part of next I've been coaching our second team and had a concussion the other week to one of our lads. Weird one he was dazed and wanted to go back on put kept him off at half time he couldn't remember the journey there or any of that morning.....
I think in the pro leagues player well fare is very high particularly what I see in the Aviva Premiership, the French leagues still seem like a meat grinder....
Players are getting bigger and bigger, since when was a scrum half 6'2" plus and knocking on 16 stone?! I don't see this trend being bucked any time soon. I was up in Scotland visiting family and popped along to see the local team play, the home team were big lads, the away side a position or two higher in the league and much smaller. Their scrum was demolished and they were battered for 80 mins but somehow won. Seldom you see such a physical miss-match triumph in the end.
How to make the game better? I'm not sure I'd probably like to in the pro leagues at least 2 points for a pen and 6 for a try. As a forward I appreciate the scrum contest so the re-sets etc don't bother me but I guess from a Joe public spectators point of view without a understanding of what's going on it can be tiresome, from my point of view it's difficult to referee and open to interpretation. Take away the technical aspects from the scrum and you're getting pretty close to Rugby League.
I quite liked the days where there was no lifting in the line-out was more of a contest.
I think in the pro leagues player well fare is very high particularly what I see in the Aviva Premiership, the French leagues still seem like a meat grinder....
Players are getting bigger and bigger, since when was a scrum half 6'2" plus and knocking on 16 stone?! I don't see this trend being bucked any time soon. I was up in Scotland visiting family and popped along to see the local team play, the home team were big lads, the away side a position or two higher in the league and much smaller. Their scrum was demolished and they were battered for 80 mins but somehow won. Seldom you see such a physical miss-match triumph in the end.
How to make the game better? I'm not sure I'd probably like to in the pro leagues at least 2 points for a pen and 6 for a try. As a forward I appreciate the scrum contest so the re-sets etc don't bother me but I guess from a Joe public spectators point of view without a understanding of what's going on it can be tiresome, from my point of view it's difficult to referee and open to interpretation. Take away the technical aspects from the scrum and you're getting pretty close to Rugby League.
I quite liked the days where there was no lifting in the line-out was more of a contest.
a311 said:
Players are getting bigger and bigger, since when was a scrum half 6'2" plus and knocking on 16 stone?! I don't see this trend being bucked any time soon.
I went to see the Quinns play Toulon or Toulouse, some French team anyway, and went to welcome them to the Stoop.I'm 6'3. My elder son is 6'2" and my younger son 6'3". All the team were our height or taller and most weighed in at 16 stone or more.
We were right at the front and Turner-Hall was tackled in full flight by us. He was stopped almost instantly. Both players required treatment. I nearly did. Not good for the sport.
a311 said:
Concussion has been a pretty hot topic over recent years I don't recall it being such a big thing in my younger playing days. Since I've been injured and will miss the rest of this season and probably part of next I've been coaching our second team and had a concussion the other week to one of our lads. Weird one he was dazed and wanted to go back on put kept him off at half time he couldn't remember the journey there or any of that morning.....
I think in the pro leagues player well fare is very high particularly what I see in the Aviva Premiership, the French leagues still seem like a meat grinder....
Players are getting bigger and bigger, since when was a scrum half 6'2" plus and knocking on 16 stone?! I don't see this trend being bucked any time soon. I was up in Scotland visiting family and popped along to see the local team play, the home team were big lads, the away side a position or two higher in the league and much smaller. Their scrum was demolished and they were battered for 80 mins but somehow won. Seldom you see such a physical miss-match triumph in the end.
How to make the game better? I'm not sure I'd probably like to in the pro leagues at least 2 points for a pen and 6 for a try. As a forward I appreciate the scrum contest so the re-sets etc don't bother me but I guess from a Joe public spectators point of view without a understanding of what's going on it can be tiresome, from my point of view it's difficult to referee and open to interpretation. Take away the technical aspects from the scrum and you're getting pretty close to Rugby League.
I quite liked the days where there was no lifting in the line-out was more of a contest.
this is it I remember thinking that Terry Holmes and JP Lescaboura were big guys and yet they were 'only' 6'1" and 13.5 stone apiece - I suspect they'd get battered senseless these days.I think in the pro leagues player well fare is very high particularly what I see in the Aviva Premiership, the French leagues still seem like a meat grinder....
Players are getting bigger and bigger, since when was a scrum half 6'2" plus and knocking on 16 stone?! I don't see this trend being bucked any time soon. I was up in Scotland visiting family and popped along to see the local team play, the home team were big lads, the away side a position or two higher in the league and much smaller. Their scrum was demolished and they were battered for 80 mins but somehow won. Seldom you see such a physical miss-match triumph in the end.
How to make the game better? I'm not sure I'd probably like to in the pro leagues at least 2 points for a pen and 6 for a try. As a forward I appreciate the scrum contest so the re-sets etc don't bother me but I guess from a Joe public spectators point of view without a understanding of what's going on it can be tiresome, from my point of view it's difficult to referee and open to interpretation. Take away the technical aspects from the scrum and you're getting pretty close to Rugby League.
I quite liked the days where there was no lifting in the line-out was more of a contest.
IIRC they started allowing lifting in the lineout as it was just too hard to referee - these days with so many cameras and instant reply available it should be a simple matter to spot (and to cite if missed during the match - both lifter and liftee banned for the next match or 2)
Derek Smith said:
I went to see the Quinns play Toulon or Toulouse, some French team anyway, and went to welcome them to the Stoop.
I'm 6'3. My elder son is 6'2" and my younger son 6'3". All the team were our height or taller and most weighed in at 16 stone or more.
We were right at the front and Turner-Hall was tackled in full flight by us. He was stopped almost instantly. Both players required treatment. I nearly did. Not good for the sport.
I would say generally the population is getting taller, better diet etc. I still think there's is plenty of scope for brains over brawn but it's becoming far less common for smaller guys to appear in national sides, your Jason Robinsons, and Shane Williams are probably going to be overlooked even at under age grade. I'm 6'3. My elder son is 6'2" and my younger son 6'3". All the team were our height or taller and most weighed in at 16 stone or more.
We were right at the front and Turner-Hall was tackled in full flight by us. He was stopped almost instantly. Both players required treatment. I nearly did. Not good for the sport.
The half's seem to have been the last to go in the 'arms race', but I can see smaller guys being phased out here too. A lot of people saying George Ford is too much of a light weight defensively. Since the game went professional there's also a lot of focus on diet, conditioning, etc and sadly less so on core skills, or maybe it's just because the big lads aren't necessaries naturally gifted?!
Unfortunately it is a physical sport and I doubt you'll ever get rid of injuries.
I played semi-pro back in 1999-2003 and the size/ intensity difference between then and now is incredible. It's only 20 years since Will Carling played at the peak of his career (5ft11 and ~14st), I doubt he'd make most pub teams at the current level as both size and fitness has moved on so much.
As Derek mentioned, I found that the use of padding / protection caused more injuries as players were less afraid of injuring a shoulder or catching their head on a boot, and so put in harder or reckless tackles.
The only measures I can think of which would reduce injuries are to be stricter on illegal play with more severe punishments e.g silly late tackles, deliberately taking players out in the air with no attempt to get the ball. The trouble is that you need to maintain a balance where you consider player safety without neutering the game and making it too dull.
I played semi-pro back in 1999-2003 and the size/ intensity difference between then and now is incredible. It's only 20 years since Will Carling played at the peak of his career (5ft11 and ~14st), I doubt he'd make most pub teams at the current level as both size and fitness has moved on so much.
As Derek mentioned, I found that the use of padding / protection caused more injuries as players were less afraid of injuring a shoulder or catching their head on a boot, and so put in harder or reckless tackles.
The only measures I can think of which would reduce injuries are to be stricter on illegal play with more severe punishments e.g silly late tackles, deliberately taking players out in the air with no attempt to get the ball. The trouble is that you need to maintain a balance where you consider player safety without neutering the game and making it too dull.
I think it's a difference in training for the most part. A lot of these guys are in the top setups at an earlier age and are training hard from the age of 16.
When I played it was still alongside a 'real job' so time for the gym and training was limited. Modern players do it as a full time profession.
However.......
It wouldn't surprise me if players use enhancing supplements to get that extra advantage.
When I played it was still alongside a 'real job' so time for the gym and training was limited. Modern players do it as a full time profession.
However.......
It wouldn't surprise me if players use enhancing supplements to get that extra advantage.
I wonder what would happen if the IRB introduced a law capping players at a maximum weight per inch of height?
Taking performance enhancing drugs isn't going to make players any taller, so I wonder if we'd suddenly start seeing less of the ultra bulked Neanderthals and more focus on skills to gain a competitive edge?
Taking performance enhancing drugs isn't going to make players any taller, so I wonder if we'd suddenly start seeing less of the ultra bulked Neanderthals and more focus on skills to gain a competitive edge?
Kermit power said:
I wonder what would happen if the IRB introduced a law capping players at a maximum weight per inch of height?
Taking performance enhancing drugs isn't going to make players any taller, so I wonder if we'd suddenly start seeing less of the ultra bulked Neanderthals and more focus on skills to gain a competitive edge?
Taking performance enhancing drugs isn't going to make players any taller, so I wonder if we'd suddenly start seeing less of the ultra bulked Neanderthals and more focus on skills to gain a competitive edge?
You can tell him
Crush said:
I think it's a difference in training for the most part. A lot of these guys are in the top setups at an earlier age and are training hard from the age of 16.
When I played it was still alongside a 'real job' so time for the gym and training was limited. Modern players do it as a full time profession.
However.......
It wouldn't surprise me if players use enhancing supplements to get that extra advantage.
In professional teams everything is managed down to the amount of meals and calories consumed, with lots of 'science' behind everything too.When I played it was still alongside a 'real job' so time for the gym and training was limited. Modern players do it as a full time profession.
However.......
It wouldn't surprise me if players use enhancing supplements to get that extra advantage.
I play in a semi-pro league, suppose it depends what you mean by semi-pro if semi-pro qualifies as being paid then yes. It's English tier 5/6, it's probably what I imagine the game was like before it turned pro. Fatties are still props and in other positions it tends to be make do with what you've got. There's some big lads kicking about in the league for sure but not many monsters, the big lads who are forwards in the area that are any good tend to get poached by the pro or semi-pro teams in the Scottish borders who have more £.
Leave it as it is but with extra training re tackling. It's always been a contact sport and that's why a lot of people like it. Too much meddling from the namby pamby brigade who would rather all kids were wrapped in cotton wool, wore hi viz jackets and did a risk assessment before setting foot outdoors. Life is a risk.
From the Sale rugbynetwork site
"This season, a selection of the injuries/knocks that have prevented the players that I coach from playing/training are :- falling off a wall, falling out of a tree, coming off a space hopper, falling off bike, (various) martial arts, swings/roundabouts/playgrounds, running into wall (in playground), assorted sprains, twist and stretches from athletic activity, taking a tumble whilst orienteering, messing around on sports courses - the list goes on"
Lots of activities to ban there as well.
From the Sale rugbynetwork site
"This season, a selection of the injuries/knocks that have prevented the players that I coach from playing/training are :- falling off a wall, falling out of a tree, coming off a space hopper, falling off bike, (various) martial arts, swings/roundabouts/playgrounds, running into wall (in playground), assorted sprains, twist and stretches from athletic activity, taking a tumble whilst orienteering, messing around on sports courses - the list goes on"
Lots of activities to ban there as well.
Edited by Smollet on Wednesday 2nd March 09:50
This seems to tie in with the discussion, what are people's thoughts
ttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35696238
The main issue that I see with this is that it will only exacerbate the issues by "moving" those injuries into later years. Surely any child that loves and plays the game will then move into Colts or Open Age and pick up injuries from the fact that they simply don't have any tackling technique
ttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35696238
The main issue that I see with this is that it will only exacerbate the issues by "moving" those injuries into later years. Surely any child that loves and plays the game will then move into Colts or Open Age and pick up injuries from the fact that they simply don't have any tackling technique
Pieman68 said:
This seems to tie in with the discussion, what are people's thoughts
ttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35696238
The main issue that I see with this is that it will only exacerbate the issues by "moving" those injuries into later years. Surely any child that loves and plays the game will then move into Colts or Open Age and pick up injuries from the fact that they simply don't have any tackling technique
..and then the contact game can be banned for adults, too - which is essentially the agenda here.ttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35696238
The main issue that I see with this is that it will only exacerbate the issues by "moving" those injuries into later years. Surely any child that loves and plays the game will then move into Colts or Open Age and pick up injuries from the fact that they simply don't have any tackling technique
Pieman68 said:
This seems to tie in with the discussion, what are people's thoughts
ttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35696238
The main issue that I see with this is that it will only exacerbate the issues by "moving" those injuries into later years. Surely any child that loves and plays the game will then move into Colts or Open Age and pick up injuries from the fact that they simply don't have any tackling technique
Agreed. If you learn how to tackle from an early age you will limit the injuries you inccur playing the game. I started at U13's and at that age you have a real mix as kids go through puberty. You soon learned that tackling high on the big lad would result in you being flung backwards, but we had a skinny flanker who although didn't have the power to knock players back wards he learned the correct way to tackle of taking out the players legs and over they went. ttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35696238
The main issue that I see with this is that it will only exacerbate the issues by "moving" those injuries into later years. Surely any child that loves and plays the game will then move into Colts or Open Age and pick up injuries from the fact that they simply don't have any tackling technique
Im not sure this approach of a choke tackle is really helping the game as it means you have to tackle high to wrap up the player which often means they are knocked backwards.
Pieman68 said:
This seems to tie in with the discussion, what are people's thoughts
ttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35696238
The main issue that I see with this is that it will only exacerbate the issues by "moving" those injuries into later years. Surely any child that loves and plays the game will then move into Colts or Open Age and pick up injuries from the fact that they simply don't have any tackling technique
I couldn't quite believe this when I saw it on the telly news this morningttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-35696238
The main issue that I see with this is that it will only exacerbate the issues by "moving" those injuries into later years. Surely any child that loves and plays the game will then move into Colts or Open Age and pick up injuries from the fact that they simply don't have any tackling technique
my lad is 11 and has been playing rugby since he first went to school, he plays in a decent club as well. if he had to play touch rugby I think he would quit.
He has been lucky enough to have good coaches and has a great body position when tackling and at breakdown, tackling discipline learnt at an early age, has to be better than later when masses are greater and injury more likely if you are not doing it properly.
sawman said:
I couldn't quite believe this when I saw it on the telly news this morning
my lad is 11 and has been playing rugby since he first went to school, he plays in a decent club as well. if he had to play touch rugby I think he would quit.
He has been lucky enough to have good coaches and has a great body position when tackling and at breakdown, tackling discipline learnt at an early age, has to be better than later when masses are greater and injury more likely if you are not doing it properly.
I think that's the issue in school rugby. You have good coaches who understand the game, but you also have useless coaches who think that a degree in sport science enables them to coach all sports. my lad is 11 and has been playing rugby since he first went to school, he plays in a decent club as well. if he had to play touch rugby I think he would quit.
He has been lucky enough to have good coaches and has a great body position when tackling and at breakdown, tackling discipline learnt at an early age, has to be better than later when masses are greater and injury more likely if you are not doing it properly.
My school used rugby as a punishment for those who didn't want to play football or hockey. The staff didn't have a clue and some of the rugby sessions were awful.
Perhaps having a sports academy for a group of schools could help? ie instead of having to put up with poor coaching, the academy would serve as an option with sport specific coaches for different schools to send their students to.
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