Swimming - Technique / Strength / Endurance
Discussion
I took up swimming in May this year. I could "swim" freestyle but my technique was s
te and I couldn't do more than 2 lengths (25m pool) without stopping. I had some coaching and I have improved massively.
I am currently on approx 7:00 for a 400m. The coaching I have had has focused a lot on getting my technique right and apart from some fine tuning it is getting there.
At what point does technique become less of an issue and strength / fitness / endurance become more of a factor in terms of speed?
In other words how close am I to the laws of diminishing returns? Going from 8:00 to 7:00 took about 3 weeks after correcting a baddy in my technique. Is it going to take me a lot longer to get to 6:30?
te and I couldn't do more than 2 lengths (25m pool) without stopping. I had some coaching and I have improved massively.I am currently on approx 7:00 for a 400m. The coaching I have had has focused a lot on getting my technique right and apart from some fine tuning it is getting there.
At what point does technique become less of an issue and strength / fitness / endurance become more of a factor in terms of speed?
In other words how close am I to the laws of diminishing returns? Going from 8:00 to 7:00 took about 3 weeks after correcting a baddy in my technique. Is it going to take me a lot longer to get to 6:30?
Erm I am fat and unfit, about 4 stone heavier than in competitive days, nowadays I can swim a 400m free in less than 5 minutes with minimal training, at my best at 20 years of age I could swim it in under 4 minutes.
If you surmise that I have retained an equally good technique, although I'm less flexible at 39 than I was at 20, and then I trained 20 hrs in the water about 10hrs land training covering up to about 70km in the water week in heavy training periods. Now I do 2.5hrs a week and about 7km
All that extra training (at least 10 times as much), youth and being 25% lighter and more flexible, effectively made a 20% difference in time.
Technique is everything. However the acquisition of good technique is a very lengthy process
If you surmise that I have retained an equally good technique, although I'm less flexible at 39 than I was at 20, and then I trained 20 hrs in the water about 10hrs land training covering up to about 70km in the water week in heavy training periods. Now I do 2.5hrs a week and about 7km
All that extra training (at least 10 times as much), youth and being 25% lighter and more flexible, effectively made a 20% difference in time.
Technique is everything. However the acquisition of good technique is a very lengthy process
well all i know is i'm still working on it and have a long way to go.
i started swimming again about 5-6 months ago (age 40) after last swimming (and not very well) at primary school
i'm fairly fit, as i do running (can do 7min/mile for 7 miles and longer runs average 8min/mile), cycling (up to 18-19mph average on my MTB with standard knobbly tyres) and some gym work - but bugger me if swimming isn't one of the hardest things i've done
.
i need to work on my technique - and am getting some help with this from a friend who used to do triathlons internationally and was at provincial level as a swimmer in S.A.
he also used to train hours and hours a day in the pool, so little wonder that, despite a 10 year break and him not being so fit (and 12 yrs older than me), he can quite easily do 45 lengths (20m pool) to my 30 and he's not even tired, but i'm knackered
however, my schedule now is not that intense, as i swim about 20 mins (35-40 x 20m lengths) 3-4 x a week. i haven't really got more time than that now, as i don't want to drop my other exercise. i'm thinking a good couple of years to really hone my technique, so i'm not really worried about where i am now - i just want to improve, but realise it'll take time.
i started swimming again about 5-6 months ago (age 40) after last swimming (and not very well) at primary school
i'm fairly fit, as i do running (can do 7min/mile for 7 miles and longer runs average 8min/mile), cycling (up to 18-19mph average on my MTB with standard knobbly tyres) and some gym work - but bugger me if swimming isn't one of the hardest things i've done
.i need to work on my technique - and am getting some help with this from a friend who used to do triathlons internationally and was at provincial level as a swimmer in S.A.
he also used to train hours and hours a day in the pool, so little wonder that, despite a 10 year break and him not being so fit (and 12 yrs older than me), he can quite easily do 45 lengths (20m pool) to my 30 and he's not even tired, but i'm knackered
however, my schedule now is not that intense, as i swim about 20 mins (35-40 x 20m lengths) 3-4 x a week. i haven't really got more time than that now, as i don't want to drop my other exercise. i'm thinking a good couple of years to really hone my technique, so i'm not really worried about where i am now - i just want to improve, but realise it'll take time.
944fan said:
Wow, sub 4 minute 400m is very impressive. I can only dream of swimming that fast.
Sounds like keep working on the technique and just swim swim swim.
Currently doing 4-5 session a week with a total distance of about 7-9Km.
Pretty much just keep at it. Swim fitness will pretty much only come through swimming. If you only have a little spare time, it should be spent swimming. If you have lots of time, then maybe you can do a little land work as well. I used to train as OneD talks about above (although I wasn't in the sub 4 minute club! Sprints are more my thing) and thats really what it takes to be able to bosh out the middle distances with such speed.Sounds like keep working on the technique and just swim swim swim.
Currently doing 4-5 session a week with a total distance of about 7-9Km.
I have a good friend who used to do 25k open waters. He'd be up above 100 km a week in the pool doing horrible sets like 10x1000s or more. We used to do things like 60 x 100's on 1:20, or fewer, faster. It's chuffing hard work.
Still 7 or so minutes for a 400 is pretty good going considering your background and honestly if doing it for a triathlon I really don't think putting lots of focus into the swim is worth it. I'd be quite happy with that sort of pace, much more time can be made on the bike and run. You gotta be fit and naturally talented to bosh out sub 4, and just as fit (and less naturally talented) to be around the 5 minutes mark. But thats netted you what? 2 minutes? its not a lot of time when you consider what can be done on the bike and run.
But just keep going! don't let the technique slide when you start to tire... thats how bad habits creep in!
944fan said:
Wow, sub 4 minute 400m is very impressive. I can only dream of swimming that fast.
Sounds like keep working on the technique and just swim swim swim.
Currently doing 4-5 session a week with a total distance of about 7-9Km.
i'm in similar situation , could swim before but no great distance ,now practicing every chance i get luckily live close to poole harbour have you tried with a tri-wetsuit in open water , it makes a big difference on bouancy .Sounds like keep working on the technique and just swim swim swim.
Currently doing 4-5 session a week with a total distance of about 7-9Km.
trouble is its getting a bit cold now
incidently have you signed up for Tenby ? , Theres a few of us first timers doing it next year
cheers
I had one go in OW earlier in the year which didn't go well. Panicked a bit and couldn't control my breathing.
Still in two minds about Tenby. I have suffered with running injuries so going to slowly build up my running base over the winter and I will see where I am in the spring. Defo going to do an Oly and Half next year though.
Still in two minds about Tenby. I have suffered with running injuries so going to slowly build up my running base over the winter and I will see where I am in the spring. Defo going to do an Oly and Half next year though.
I'm here to make you feel better
I was in the same position as you earlier this year - two lengths maximum then I was out of breath despite being reasonably fit.
I'm now at 4 lengths (on a good day ) after all this time. 400m in 7:00 would be fantastic from where I'm sitting/slowly drowning. Can I borrow your coach ?
I was hoping to do a Triathlon next year but at this rate I'm not going to make it. My running & cycling is improving but I don't want the swim to be 20min odd so I'll wait until I can do the distance a) without stopping and b) in a reasonable time
I was in the same position as you earlier this year - two lengths maximum then I was out of breath despite being reasonably fit.
I'm now at 4 lengths (on a good day ) after all this time. 400m in 7:00 would be fantastic from where I'm sitting/slowly drowning. Can I borrow your coach ?
I was hoping to do a Triathlon next year but at this rate I'm not going to make it. My running & cycling is improving but I don't want the swim to be 20min odd so I'll wait until I can do the distance a) without stopping and b) in a reasonable time
Sounds like you need some coaching. The biggest issue I had that was holding me back was my breathing. I wasn't exhaling underwater and also trying to breathe every 4 strokes. I now breathe every two and constantly exhale. That made a huge difference. The coach I use is http://www.greenlightpt.co.uk/
But I notice you are in Hampshire so a bit far away.
But I notice you are in Hampshire so a bit far away.
The main reason that swimming is so bloody time consuming to get right-ish, is that it's an alien environment and so the more time you can bank in the water the more familiar you come with your surroundings, the more self aware you become with how you are interacting with the water, the more muscle memory and swimming specific strength you build. When you add the viscosity of water being so much more than air, then every tiny little thing that is not helping move or maintain momentum is magnified and slowing you down/making you put more effort in to keep the same pace.
Example; yesterday I joined in with a technique session at the local pool, were were doing 100's stroke counting with paddles on I was maintaining 8-9 strokes a length (okay a good turn and 3-4 fly kicks was taking care of 10m) but that is still nearly 2m travel with every stroke. Lowest anyone else was doing was 16 strokes a length, so effectively I was twice as efficient, using half as much energy going slightly faster.
Technique is more than just putting your body, arms & legs in the right positions though, a lot is down to flexibility, strength, leverage and how that is applied in a relaxed and controlled manner.
Example; yesterday I joined in with a technique session at the local pool, were were doing 100's stroke counting with paddles on I was maintaining 8-9 strokes a length (okay a good turn and 3-4 fly kicks was taking care of 10m) but that is still nearly 2m travel with every stroke. Lowest anyone else was doing was 16 strokes a length, so effectively I was twice as efficient, using half as much energy going slightly faster.
Technique is more than just putting your body, arms & legs in the right positions though, a lot is down to flexibility, strength, leverage and how that is applied in a relaxed and controlled manner.
Edited by OneDs on Friday 18th October 12:56
OndeDs - some really useful insight there thanks. I have a fairly low stroke count, but that is largely due to being very tall and having an arm span longer than my height. My Garmin Swim says I average about 10-11 strokes.
Getting the feel for the water is difficult. My coach has given me a skulling drill to work on and I find it hard going.
When I really engage the water and push through my stoke I get unbalanced and my technique ends up getting messy. When I watch some of the club swimmers who can really fly there strokes are so much more refined than mine, it looks effortless. I think the next step for me is as you say getting that technique relaxed and controlled.
Regardless I love swimming and I am happy to put the effort in to get better. I appreciate that it wouldn't make a huge difference to triathlons but the reason for getting into those in the first place was for health and weight reasons so like to maximise the things I enjoy.
Getting the feel for the water is difficult. My coach has given me a skulling drill to work on and I find it hard going.
When I really engage the water and push through my stoke I get unbalanced and my technique ends up getting messy. When I watch some of the club swimmers who can really fly there strokes are so much more refined than mine, it looks effortless. I think the next step for me is as you say getting that technique relaxed and controlled.
Regardless I love swimming and I am happy to put the effort in to get better. I appreciate that it wouldn't make a huge difference to triathlons but the reason for getting into those in the first place was for health and weight reasons so like to maximise the things I enjoy.
Yep I'm 6'2" with a 6'6" wing span, physiology helps a lot too... my brother who was better than me at a age 10-13 is now 6'5" with a 6'10" span and size 14 feet, I wish he'd have kept it up but he didn't have a competitive bone in his body.
With regard to sculling laying on your back waving at your feet is one way, try these two:
Feet first: as above just going the opposite way, either hands by your side or above your head, the feel for the water is not really the aim on this, trying to maintain a balanced body position, direction and momentum is much more difficult and this increases self-awareness, we used to do this stuff way before anyone knew what core strength was.
Upright/vertical: this is about applying continuous and strong pressure. In the water moving no where or slowly forwards, legs dead still hanging down, sweeping in and out at chest height nearly into a prayer position (like you do when you bring your hands in together during the last part of the breaststroke arm stroke before recovering forward) maintain downward pressure on the water all the time and see how high and and long you can keep your shoulders out of the water for (30 sec bursts are normally enough).
Good luck.
With regard to sculling laying on your back waving at your feet is one way, try these two:
Feet first: as above just going the opposite way, either hands by your side or above your head, the feel for the water is not really the aim on this, trying to maintain a balanced body position, direction and momentum is much more difficult and this increases self-awareness, we used to do this stuff way before anyone knew what core strength was.
Upright/vertical: this is about applying continuous and strong pressure. In the water moving no where or slowly forwards, legs dead still hanging down, sweeping in and out at chest height nearly into a prayer position (like you do when you bring your hands in together during the last part of the breaststroke arm stroke before recovering forward) maintain downward pressure on the water all the time and see how high and and long you can keep your shoulders out of the water for (30 sec bursts are normally enough).
Good luck.
944fan said:
When I really engage the water and push through my stoke I get unbalanced and my technique ends up getting messy.
A lot of this can be down to self-awareness, relaxation and flexibility so that you can (with minimal effort) make thing go in straight lines in the recovery phase.In a 3d environment the shortest distance from exit to entry is a straight line from your lower thigh to right out in-front of your head along the surface of the water.
The only way to actually follow that line in reality is it to have relaxed shoulders, elbows(bent), wrist and fingers, and to twist your body around a center-axis. when you enter the water at the front if you follow the twist of your body as you recover (and turn your head to breath) on the other side, the natural inclination is to over rotate and cross the centre-line in front, this means you are now zig-zagging down the pool.
There are a few tips to reduce this:
Kick; kicking keeps the body in position, core straight and maintains balance, too many people just do nothing or very little with their legs and the pendulum motion makes it worse. If you really want work out how hard it is to maintain balanced without kicking, during a pull set cross the centre-line on purpose on entry.
Hyper extend forwards on entry; stand upright square on to the wall, touch the wall with both finger tips at the centre point at shoulder height, make a visual reference on the floor of your where your feet are. Twist your shoulders so that one is under your chin, one finger tip still on the wall, now move back as far as you can, until you can really feel the stretch along your arm and are just touching the wall with your finger tip. The distance your feet have moved back is how far you need to hyper extend at the beginning of every stroke forwards, mentally lock this in your head and replicate it in the water. By stretching forwards after entry you avoid the temptation to cross the centre line.
Relaxed recovery; any lateral movement in the recovery away from the straight line will promote in-balance, try dragging very relaxed finger tips across the water whilst brushing your thumb along your body up to your head and then out in front.
Breath in the wake, turning to far to breath creates inbalance, see how little you can get away with and still get a breath in the bow wave, try not to look behind you when breathing. Try to breath less, ie. 3, 4 strokes rather than two, do full 25m's no breathing relaxed and easy.
Edited by OneDs on Friday 18th October 14:35
944fan said:
Sounds like you need some coaching. The biggest issue I had that was holding me back was my breathing. I wasn't exhaling underwater and also trying to breathe every 4 strokes. I now breathe every two and constantly exhale. That made a huge difference. The coach I use is http://www.greenlightpt.co.uk/
But I notice you are in Hampshire so a bit far away.
Agree - coaching is the next step. Not much in my area unfortunately. I took lessons at the local pool but they weren't much good.But I notice you are in Hampshire so a bit far away.
SpydieNut said:
well all i know is i'm still working on it and have a long way to go.
i started swimming again about 5-6 months ago (age 40) after last swimming (and not very well) at primary school
i'm fairly fit, as i do running (can do 7min/mile for 7 miles and longer runs average 8min/mile), cycling (up to 18-19mph average on my MTB with standard knobbly tyres) and some gym work - but bugger me if swimming isn't one of the hardest things i've done.
i need to work on my technique - and am getting some help with this from a friend who used to do triathlons internationally and was at provincial level as a swimmer in S.A.
he also used to train hours and hours a day in the pool, so little wonder that, despite a 10 year break and him not being so fit (and 12 yrs older than me), he can quite easily do 45 lengths (20m pool) to my 30 and he's not even tired, but i'm knackered
however, my schedule now is not that intense, as i swim about 20 mins (35-40 x 20m lengths) 3-4 x a week. i haven't really got more time than that now, as i don't want to drop my other exercise. i'm thinking a good couple of years to really hone my technique, so i'm not really worried about where i am now - i just want to improve, but realise it'll take time.
If you're averaging 18-19MPH on an MTB you should be a pro...i started swimming again about 5-6 months ago (age 40) after last swimming (and not very well) at primary school
i'm fairly fit, as i do running (can do 7min/mile for 7 miles and longer runs average 8min/mile), cycling (up to 18-19mph average on my MTB with standard knobbly tyres) and some gym work - but bugger me if swimming isn't one of the hardest things i've done
.i need to work on my technique - and am getting some help with this from a friend who used to do triathlons internationally and was at provincial level as a swimmer in S.A.
he also used to train hours and hours a day in the pool, so little wonder that, despite a 10 year break and him not being so fit (and 12 yrs older than me), he can quite easily do 45 lengths (20m pool) to my 30 and he's not even tired, but i'm knackered
however, my schedule now is not that intense, as i swim about 20 mins (35-40 x 20m lengths) 3-4 x a week. i haven't really got more time than that now, as i don't want to drop my other exercise. i'm thinking a good couple of years to really hone my technique, so i'm not really worried about where i am now - i just want to improve, but realise it'll take time.
Many have said technique is everything, which is true completely. Only the strength you build through training can get you to have a faster technique.
I used to swim the same amount as oneD, in the latter years up until 18 where i pretty much packed it in all together ( work reasons, and the lifetime of doing it it had lost the fun appeal it once had). Did a couple of sessions this summer with a couple of ex-swimmers who are now coaches. I keep myself reasonably in shape but it was best to say the first bit of swimming i'd done in the best part of 5 years. It's amazing how much your body can lose ability, i was fine in for the first few lengths, my technique was good and had the same feeling od travelling through water like it was only yesterday. This is all up until the best part of about 200m where i'm now absolutely bksed. Legs weren't up to kicking any more and my arms felt heavy as fk. Stopping every 200m then just from being physically knackered. I got into it a bit more and the ability started to come back after a couple sessions, i did about 6 in total over summer of about an hour at a time but knew it would be a long time to get back to being as quick as i was. i was only ever up to doing sprint stuff so anything past 200m and breaststroke i didn't bother doing.
The point of that being, keep it up as much as you can, my coach told me when at a peak of training season if you took 2 days off it would take you a week to get back to full fitness, a week off it would take a month and have a month off it would take 6 months.
It's far easier if you go as much as you can, you will get quicker over time its the natural progression of your body getting used to muscle growing to suit movements that it's doing more often.
I used to swim the same amount as oneD, in the latter years up until 18 where i pretty much packed it in all together ( work reasons, and the lifetime of doing it it had lost the fun appeal it once had). Did a couple of sessions this summer with a couple of ex-swimmers who are now coaches. I keep myself reasonably in shape but it was best to say the first bit of swimming i'd done in the best part of 5 years. It's amazing how much your body can lose ability, i was fine in for the first few lengths, my technique was good and had the same feeling od travelling through water like it was only yesterday. This is all up until the best part of about 200m where i'm now absolutely b
ksed. Legs weren't up to kicking any more and my arms felt heavy as fk. Stopping every 200m then just from being physically knackered. I got into it a bit more and the ability started to come back after a couple sessions, i did about 6 in total over summer of about an hour at a time but knew it would be a long time to get back to being as quick as i was. i was only ever up to doing sprint stuff so anything past 200m and breaststroke i didn't bother doing.The point of that being, keep it up as much as you can, my coach told me when at a peak of training season if you took 2 days off it would take you a week to get back to full fitness, a week off it would take a month and have a month off it would take 6 months.
It's far easier if you go as much as you can, you will get quicker over time its the natural progression of your body getting used to muscle growing to suit movements that it's doing more often.
Keep going with the technique, there is always something to learn. I'm swimming at the National Masters next week, doing the 400 free amongst other events and will hopefully do c4.30 which might get me in with a shout of a minor medal in my age group (not one of the younger ones). I gave up for 15 years and came back 6 stone heavier than when I gave up, but having a good technique helped me get my swimming fitness back a lot quicker. That was 5 years ago. I also had to take about 18 months off recently due to illness, but it does come back, I started training properly (I only do 3 sessions a week, about 12k a week) in June and I'm not where I would like to be but not far off.
You should realise OneDS and Otis really are top swimmers, you are doing really well and you will have plenty more time to drop.
One thing I've noticed though is how relatively close I can get to my old times as a teenager off much less training as an adult at an age when all international swimmers have retired, kind of calls into question whether I really needed to be doing 45k a week as a 12 year old. My coach was at a seminar with some top international coaches recently, he said Camille Muffat's coach was there and she does up to 120k a week!
You should realise OneDS and Otis really are top swimmers, you are doing really well and you will have plenty more time to drop.
One thing I've noticed though is how relatively close I can get to my old times as a teenager off much less training as an adult at an age when all international swimmers have retired, kind of calls into question whether I really needed to be doing 45k a week as a 12 year old. My coach was at a seminar with some top international coaches recently, he said Camille Muffat's coach was there and she does up to 120k a week!
OneDs said:
Erm I am fat and unfit, about 4 stone heavier than in competitive days, nowadays I can swim a 400m free in less than 5 minutes with minimal training, at my best at 20 years of age I could swim it in under 4 minutes.
If you surmise that I have retained an equally good technique, although I'm less flexible at 39 than I was at 20, and then I trained 20 hrs in the water about 10hrs land training covering up to about 70km in the water week in heavy training periods. Now I do 2.5hrs a week and about 7km
All that extra training (at least 10 times as much), youth and being 25% lighter and more flexible, effectively made a 20% difference in time.
Technique is everything. However the acquisition of good technique is a very lengthy process
^this? This is why swimming is so unfair. If you were a competitive swimmer as a kid, you're pretty much guaranteed to be able to get back in the water as an adult and skin 90% of the completion alive, then roll them in salt. If you surmise that I have retained an equally good technique, although I'm less flexible at 39 than I was at 20, and then I trained 20 hrs in the water about 10hrs land training covering up to about 70km in the water week in heavy training periods. Now I do 2.5hrs a week and about 7km
All that extra training (at least 10 times as much), youth and being 25% lighter and more flexible, effectively made a 20% difference in time.
Technique is everything. However the acquisition of good technique is a very lengthy process
944, where you are now is 1m 45 /100m. Hold that, and you're looking at 26 mins for 1500m and 33mins for a HIM swim.
Ok, so now imagine you're churning out 1m 30/100m. You've saved 3.5 mins over 1500m and 4.5 mins over a HIM. So now consider how much work it will require to drop to 1m 30 /100 in the pool, compared to how much effort it would take to reduce your Oly/HIM bike/run times by the same margins. You're looking at a much smaller % improvement, simply because the time spent doing those too disciplines is >> the time spent swimming.
For the most part, there's a "good enough" level for a triathlete's swimming speed, at which point the effort required to gain additional time is better spent on the bike/run for the same, or better, reward.
Eta: Otis has said all this already!
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 20th October 21:32
Greg66 said:
944, where you are now is 1m 45 /100m. Hold that, and you're looking at 26 mins for 1500m and 33mins for a HIM swim.
Ok, so now imagine you're churning out 1m 30/100m. You've saved 3.5 mins over 1500m and 4.5 mins over a HIM. So now consider how much work it will require to drop to 1m 30 /100 in the pool, compared to how much effort it would take to reduce your Oly/HIM bike/run times by the same margins. You're looking at a much smaller % improvement, simply because the time spent doing those too disciplines is >> the time spent swimming.
The biggest thing slowing me down on the bike (up hill) and run at the minute is being overweight. I have also suffered a few running injuries and haven't been able to run much recently (so have been upping pool sessions). If I rode on a completely flat course I could average about 22-23 mph. Add in even some slight hills and the best I can manage is 17-18 mph average. My run is dismal with a 27:40 5K pb. I really need to lose another 2-2.5 stone. I think I could probably dip under 25:00 just be losing that.Ok, so now imagine you're churning out 1m 30/100m. You've saved 3.5 mins over 1500m and 4.5 mins over a HIM. So now consider how much work it will require to drop to 1m 30 /100 in the pool, compared to how much effort it would take to reduce your Oly/HIM bike/run times by the same margins. You're looking at a much smaller % improvement, simply because the time spent doing those too disciplines is >> the time spent swimming.
I guess it takes me back to my original question. From where I am now 1:45 / 100m getting to 1:30 / 100m how much is likely to be gained by continual technique improvement and how much is going to require a boat load of work?
I am also planning some pure swim only OW races next year so still interested in getting faster outside of Triathlons.
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