The new scrum laws

[Derek Smith]

Saw my first club-level match yesterday and if the changes are there to lower the number of resets then they have worked. I reckon that a decrease of around 50% of restarts is not an exaggeration.

One problem though. With the ref's attention not otherwise engaged, crooked put-ins were a major problem, at least for the first half. For the second, it would appear that the ref got a bit bored - it was a pre-season friendly - and gave up for all but the most blatant.

The front row reckoned that it will take a bit longer to get used to it although our forwards dominated the scrum.

[XCP]

My son is a prop and I watched him play in a pre season match on Thursday. I agree about the crooked put ins. Interestingly the ref was a rather shrill woman, and one rather grizzled spectator observed that it was hard to understand her unless you were a dog.

[Cheib]

I read an article in The Times about it yesterday. They reckon that taking the hit out has put more emphasis on technique as it's harder to gain penalties by gaming the hit/collapsing. Ergo Australia are in even more st

It'll be very interesting come the Autmun internationals.

[Derek Smith]

XCP said:

My son is a prop and I watched him play in a pre season match on Thursday. I agree about the crooked put ins. Interestingly the ref was a rather shrill woman, and one rather grizzled spectator observed that it was hard to understand her unless you were a dog.

We had a female ref last season and she was, after a dodgy start, very good. The lads had no criticisms of her apart from initially not saying much, a common fault with those refs new to the job I've found. When she changed and started talking, my lad said it was difficult to understand her when she got excited.

As an aside: I'm watching NZ v Oz in a Championship match on Sky. Oz were 9 - 27 down with 9 mins to go. The Oz #15 caught a long punt into their 22. He then kicked it straight back with no attempt to run despite a spread out NZ. The Kiwi commentator said: It's as if we're at Twickenham.

It was funny.

[Los Endos]

Another new thing to remember ( at my age :-( )

[Life Saab Itch]

Crooked put ins do my nut.

our hooker refused to get in one of the scrums last season because he said he was rendered obsolete because the ball was fed straight to the lock's feet.

[Derek Smith]

Life Saab Itch said:

Crooked put ins do my nut.

our hooker refused to get in one of the scrums last season because he said he was rendered obsolete because the ball was fed straight to the lock's feet.

I feel certain this is not true. For an example of how effective the new laws are:

http://youtu.be/rLw4SiFTPrs

[Cheib]

Derek Smith said:

I feel certain this is not true. For an example of how effective the new laws are:

http://youtu.be/rLw4SiFTPrs

That's an example of how st the ref is.....it's not difficult is it.

[eggchaser1987]

Derek Smith said:

I feel certain this is not true. For an example of how effective the new laws are:

http://youtu.be/rLw4SiFTPrs

I keep seeing this a lot. It does look like the ref just doesn't really care about how the ball gets put in as long as the scrum stays up, half the time this doesn't even happen. Doens't make for good quality or even legal scrumaging.

[Derek Smith]

To give the ref his due, the match was merely a training match and he tried to enforce it in the first half. I thought he chose the best option as the problem is one for the team itself. We played to the hooker - he's a bit of quality - and so for us it was no problem. I would not be surprised if our coach had a word with the ref at half time.

The ref let other stuff go as well, after a couple of cautions. Its a judgement call for the ref and he'd be criticised either way.

However, that type of feeding is far from unusual, as we all know. I could have picked an example from a 'real' match but my team's coach would have thrown a wobbly. You can't criticise anything about the RFU. At one club we had a real drongo as a ref and I picked out all his duff decisions and produced a not very short video. When I showed it to my coach he demanded that I destroy all copies.

My lad's previous team also played a pre-season match and one of the opposing side was carded, for being an idiot. So the coach of my old team asked the ref if he would take him back on as there was little to be learned playing 14.

[Los Endos]

What's wrong with that video ?
That's about as straight as I've seen in the last 15 years

And on a more serious note, my experence in bottom end of junior 3rd team is that the Society Refs are not too bad, and we often have a good contest at the set piece, what really is a problem is 'going uncontested' at this level.
Often teams rock up with no full set of front rowers ( he'll have a go Sir ) but appears to be fine, then when it all starts going backwards, suddenly it's a case 'sorry we tried, but we'll have to go uncontested' Grrrrrr

We need more fat lads and league points deducted for this behaviour....
Leagues have been great for lower end Rugby players, few games get cancelled, rarely do you slaughtered by a team full of 1st Teamers any more, but uncontested is disappointing

Edited by Los Endos on Wednesday 28th August 19:19

[XCP]

That is a good point. Front rowers have to start somewhere, other wise you have a chicken and egg situation and no-one ever plays their first game in the front row. The third team would be the logical place to begin.
And yet we too have teams pleading to have uncontested scrums at that level.
' oh we have only one prop'.
'Tough st' should be the answer.

[Condi]

We had our first game last night, very few scrum resets but the ground was about as nice as it came, so hard to tell. Seemed a good idea though, in practice there is no/equal pushing until the ball is in, which, while in theory is the way it was, was a bit different to how it used to be played.

[Derek Smith]

I was talking to one of the players after yesterday's practice match against a team in the equivalent division to us in another league.

We dominated the scrum to a level where they changed tactics and got the ball out of their scrum as quickly as possible. Both props reckoned that, despite being outweighed by a few pounds man to man in the front five, and a few more in the back row, the reason we were on top was the better technique.

We've got two new props in the last year and both are sharp lads. They reckoned that we might have the edge early on but that other teams will catch on soon enough. They are reasonably happy with the new laws, feeling that the infighting should be there once players get used to them.

The other props (and the #8 for some reason) got very upset with our props so back to normal there.

[Cheib]

Interesting article in The Times today about this....John Jeffrey is the IRB man behind this. Spent three years doing research into it apparently. Cockerill having a pop saying it's unsafe for hookers having to hook.

One thing that was interesting is that apparently the RFU have admitted privately that Walsh's refereeing of the scrum England/Wales in the Six Nations was at fault. They reackon there's much less chance for sides to game the collapse under the new laws like Wales did.

[RWD cossie wil]

Interesting to see two props sin binned yesterday in the Wales/S.Africa game, can't say I have ever seen an international go uncontested before!

As a second row player, I find the new laws odd, the refs need to sort out the timing, as a lot of scrums seem to get penalised for early engagement, early pushing etc when the ref leaves a big gap between commands, or calls in quick succession without giving the packs time to get fully bound!

[London424]

RWD cossie wil said:

Interesting to see two props sin binned yesterday in the Wales/S.Africa game, can't say I have ever seen an international go uncontested before!

As a second row player, I find the new laws odd, the refs need to sort out the timing, as a lot of scrums seem to get penalised for early engagement, early pushing etc when the ref leaves a big gap between commands, or calls in quick succession without giving the packs time to get fully bound!

Surely the laws are really easy. You bind (without a big hit) and then don't push until the ball is put in.

No scrum that I've seen gets penalised for early engagement as that has been removed from the sequence. Early push I've seen, but that's because the scrum should be level and and stable without either team pushing.

I thought the ref did a good job he gave multiple penalties on that side, then warned generally, then told the two players that if it goes down on that side they'd both be in the bin. He was true to his word.

[irocfan]

RWD cossie wil said:

Interesting to see two props sin binned yesterday in the Wales/S.Africa game, can't say I have ever seen an international go uncontested before!

didn't that happen in the last Lions vs Saffa test series?

[Cheib]

irocfan said:

RWD cossie wil said:

Interesting to see two props sin binned yesterday in the Wales/S.Africa game, can't say I have ever seen an international go uncontested before!

didn't that happen in the last Lions vs Saffa test series?

Can't remember exactly but I've seen it a few times. Probably the Aussies given how village they are at scrummaging!

[XCP]

Uncontested scrums are an abomination. If a prop gets binned and a flanker or second row has to play in the front row, tough. Ask Bill Beaumont. Played virtually a full game at prop V Australia when Mike Burton got sent off. It might focus the props minds on behaving themselves.

I have even had a referee decide scrums were to be uncontested because the opposing front row were experienced but just not very good!