Rugby: ABC question

[DocJock]

For DJRC, BigBob and the rest of you chunky lads who are versed in the dark arts of the front row.

How could they sort out the clusterfk which is the new policing of the engagement?

Dare I suggest just leave the players to sort it out?

When I was still running around watching the big lads having a cuddle, there were many things better than now imo

• Scrum halves put the ball down the middle of the tunnel
• Hookers actually had to strike for the ball and it was an actual skill
• It was a skill to get under your opposing prop and pop him up, not a penalty against you
• It was a skill to get your opponent twisted so that he couldn't push properly, not a penalty against you
• Wheeling the scrum was a tactic, not an infringement

Watching a series of 5M scrums was one of the best parts of an international, all the crowd on their feet yelling. Where did it all go wrong? (rhetorical q).

[davepoth]

I'm going to pretend is wasn't rhetorical.

I was talking about it with a friend during the game. I guess it's got so physical nowadays - when I played at school the front row were just the fat kids - that there is just too much risk of injury if they played like they did back in the 70s. Presumably all of the extra face hair back then provided valuable extra friction to help the scrum stay up.

[DJRC]

Well the first bloody thing Id do is stop this crooked feed bks!!!!! Fully with Brian Moore on this one, it makes me furious!

[Jacobyte]

I've been shouting at the telly for all those reasons and feel like joining in for a proper spleen-venting rant.

A prop slipping on the wet ground (i.e. crap turf) should not reward the opposition with a bleedin' PENALTY, but the scrum half feeding the ball directly into his 2nd row certainly should.

Harrumph!

[DJRC]

The field of play. Wtf is the point of a field of turf and putting studs into it if it just rips up like tissue paper? The turf cant support decent footing, stability and application of power through it then sure as hell its going to make scrums more dangerous than any other thing.

The quality of the pitches for keeping the turf intact has been attrocious all tournament.

[Derek Smith]

davepoth said:

I'm going to pretend is wasn't rhetorical.

I was talking about it with a friend during the game. I guess it's got so physical nowadays - when I played at school the front row were just the fat kids - that there is just too much risk of injury if they played like they did back in the 70s. Presumably all of the extra face hair back then provided valuable extra friction to help the scrum stay up.

Professionalism is to blame to a great extent. As you say, the size of the blokes nowadays is all but terrifying. I am 6'2", my lad is 6'3". We watched Toulouse debus for a match against Quinns and the team walked past us. The vast majority were taller, bigger built and certainly a lot uglier than me or my lad. Some were much taller. Their second row were all but giants.

Also, no offence to the players from the dark ages of the sport, they are now athletes.

I would assume the references are on the internet but when my lad was just starting out in rugby there were a number of injuries, particularly neck, to the front row, around the year 2000 or so, that reached the press and my wife was wondering what we were letting out little baby in for. I had to promise not to let him play prop or hooker.

The changes have come about in part through pressure from these injuries. No sport can have a set of rules which allows risk of injury when a change can lower the risk.

Letting the front rows sort it out is nice in theory but will not sound all that good in court given the history of injuries. Injuries occurred at a higher rate than happens nowadays, despite the greater athleticism. Further, clubs nowadays have to pay insurance against public liability and the pressure from them, purely financial, is rather high I believe.

On top of all that, professionalism has increased fitness of lower level teams. Twenty years ago a team the level my son plays in now would have had a fag break during training. That's if they trained. I was standing with an ex-captain of the club when our team was going through its pre-match warm-up. When they wandered off to the changing rooms to change into match kit, the ex-captain said that he didn't think he'd ever put as much effort into a whole match. Yet the lads were still running, pushing and grunting at the end of the match, we scoring two tries in the last 10 mins.

It's a different game to the one I tried to play.

Criticise the methods that have been used to sort out the front rows but I don't think you can argue against the desire. There is a fundamental problem with the way the heads are locked together. It is dangerous. These changes try to lower the risk.

[BigBob]

DocJock said:

For DJRC, BigBob and the rest of you chunky lads who are versed in the dark arts of the front row.

How could they sort out the clusterfk which is the new policing of the engagement?

Dare I suggest just leave the players to sort it out?

When I was still running around watching the big lads having a cuddle, there were many things better than now imo

• Scrum halves put the ball down the middle of the tunnel
• Hookers actually had to strike for the ball and it was an actual skill
• It was a skill to get under your opposing prop and pop him up, not a penalty against you
• It was a skill to get your opponent twisted so that he couldn't push properly, not a penalty against you
• Wheeling the scrum was a tactic, not an infringement

Watching a series of 5M scrums was one of the best parts of an international, all the crowd on their feet yelling. Where did it all go wrong? (rhetorical q).

I come from the pre-historic days and can agree with what you say.

Get the scrum halves to feed straight and bring back the art of hooking - it was one of my 'side-skills' to try and get my right leg in following the ball to either: stop the other hooker hooking or help our hooker get the ball back. Not something a TH could always do but a little addition if you were dominant in the scrum. Also made harder if you had a 16/17 stone hooker hanging on your neck.

I know Derek disagrees - I think mainly for 'liability' reasons - but I'd like to see it go back to the days where the front rows engaged then the back 5 would come in - ball in and then push. I worry that long term, the damage caused by the 'Hit' will cause more long-term injuries than the rules have tried to prevent.

I know of at least one TH in his very early 20's who has already required spinal surgery - this isn't a 'park' player but one that has played at Rabo/LV level having come through an Academy system.

Carry this thought forward and what will happen long-term to other players? We all Oohed and Aahed when Hibbard put that tackle in on Parling - but tackles like that were going on all over the field. The human body isn't designed to withstand such abuse. We are used to seeing players from 20 or 30 years back being still relatively fit, healthy and mobile - I wonder sometimes what the current crop of players will be like in 20 years or so?

Wheeling the scrum is still a tactic IF DONE PROPERLY - the intention always was to take the oppo back row away from the inside channel and create space for an 8/9 break. The ball had to be somewhere near the back-row first though. Again with the tendency for SH's to feed, the wheel can go on early knowing the chances are the 8 will get the ball. Unfortunately the way to overcome this is now to provoke the wheel so the scrum loses it shape and ends up in collapse.

Interestingly, I've been watching the Scrum V (BBC Wales) 'Classics' recently shown in conjunction with the 6N. It was interesting to see the Front Rows making an effort to get tot he scrum first to engage with the opposition the the locks/back-row arriving and joining in followed the the SH's. The arm wrestle would start early, but everyone would 'settle in' and the ball would come in. Didn't see many collapses - ok they are highlights but there was none of the mention of multiple resets we see know.

BB

[DocJock]

I;m a bit of a dinosaur too BB.

I was lucky enough to always get seats in the schoolboy enclosure at the old Murrayfield, ie right down at pitchside.

Seeing MightyMouse and Sandy Carmichael taking on the likes of Fran Cotton, Graham Price, Stack Stevens, Ray McLoughlin and Charlie Faulkner close up was amazing. There was so much going on that you don't see on TV, even well before the scrums were set they were working at each other.

You could have 5 or 6 consecutive scrums with no collapses or penalties, just a reset because it was a stalemate. Awesome stuff.

[z4chris99]

1. Put the ball down the middle
2. Make props wear looser shirts, and proper studs (what happened to ankle boots!)
3. Teach Refs (steve walsh) how to ref the scrum
4. Improve the turf

apart from that the scrum isnt that bad, its just its reffed badly.

Im 26 and played prop/hooker till 15 before moving to back row, before I fked my acl last season I stupidly stood in at hooker to stop the scrum going uncontested, fking hell the forces even at club/uni level really do fk with your back and neck.

[timlongs]

On improving the turf, the new artificial pitch at Allianz, in the first 3 games I think there was just 1 reset scrum - shows the difference a good surface can make?

[Life Saab Itch]

From the perspective of a club player who has just started as a d/e not an abc, it seems like an awful lot of faff for no gain. the ref is usually ignored by our front row who have over 100 years combined experience of rugby. part of the.obvious problem is that the refs aren't quick enough. when they say touch, that's when the front row starts to move towards each other and by the time the ref has said engage, the ball is usually won or lost.


It's kind of summed up that the best ref I have seen is when we had an away game and the rfu ref couldn't make it last minute. The first team hooker (no first team match) said that he would do it as he has the ref qualification, but.it was his first ever game reffing. He was spot on. fair decisions and no BS around the scrums. because he was shouting it out at a realistic speed, the scrums were good and I think we had one breakdown the whole game.

The reffing in the 6N was awful by comparison

[BigBob]

Life Saab Itch said:

From the perspective of a club player who has just started as a d/e not an abc, it seems like an awful lot of faff for no gain. the ref is usually ignored by our front row who have over 100 years combined experience of rugby. part of the.obvious problem is that the refs aren't quick enough. when they say touch, that's when the front row starts to move towards each other and by the time the ref has said engage, the ball is usually won or lost.

I think the IRB have sent out a directive pre-6N asking for a delay between the touch and the set to stop this.

TBF I think more refs are pinging front rows for 'early engagement', certainly at higher levels.

This was part of the problem last Saturday IMO. England were trying to stand back so they could drive the hit and Gethin was doing a job on Cole because he was standing closer to him to lessen the hit and enable him to get a longer bind which can help stop the TH driving/turning in. Something Cole is often guilty of. Castro got carded for the same tactics of turning in so perhaps he's been found out at last.

Adam - well doesn't seem to make much difference whether he stands up or back TBH.


BB