Swimming - 2 length barrier

Swimming - 2 length barrier

Author
Discussion

gifdy

Original Poster:

2,073 posts

246 months

Wednesday 6th February 2013
quotequote all
Hoping for some tips - I've recently taken up swimming. It's mainly to help with a chronic back complaint but I secretly want to aim for a triathlon at some point in the next few years. I've read up a lot on technique and I was given a series of 6 swimming lessons for Christmas but I cannot seem to get beyond 2 lengths without having to take a 30-60 sec break.

I think my technique is OK. My swiming instructor says so and I seem to keep up with most people swimming lanes at the pool. I breathe bilaterally to ensure I am reasonably symmetric ( again a back thing ). My arms don't tire at the 2 lengths but I get out of puff.

Any suggestions ? Are there drills or something I can do to push through this or is it just putting in pool time ? Is it just in my head ?

Cheers !

rhinochopig

17,932 posts

203 months

Wednesday 6th February 2013
quotequote all
How hard are you kicking? A lot of people kick way to fast / hard which leaves you in Oxygen debt after a couple of lengths. Try using a leg float and just your arms and slowly swim the two lengths and see how you feel. You may also be pulling too hard with your arms but that's easier to feel yourself.

If you're still knackered it's your breathing technique you need to work on. If it is your breathing technique it's worth booking another couple of lessons that focus purely on this as it's hard to self teach breathing.

gifdy

Original Poster:

2,073 posts

246 months

Wednesday 6th February 2013
quotequote all
Probably not hard enough if anything. I can't breaststroke because the leg kick knackers my back so I'm pretty wary about kicking hard. It must then be the breathing ? I've got a lesson on Thursday but when I've brought this up they just say - "try to do 4 lengths". That's why I was questioning whether there are drill sor something I could try or whether I just need to be patient and keep putting the time in.

Edit to add - I'll try the float thing on Thursday, thanks

Kawasicki

13,385 posts

240 months

Wednesday 6th February 2013
quotequote all
I had exactly the same problem. I was confused because I inherited very good stamina, yet two lengths of a pool would kill me. The solution for me was simple, but it still took me a couple of months to figure it out. My problem was not enough breathing for my swimming work rate. So I slowed down, stopped kicking my legs so hard, and breathed WAY more, I spent more time gliding between arm pulls (reducing stroke rate).

Good luck.

rhinochopig

17,932 posts

203 months

Wednesday 6th February 2013
quotequote all
gifdy said:
Probably not hard enough if anything. I can't breaststroke because the leg kick knackers my back so I'm pretty wary about kicking hard. It must then be the breathing ? I've got a lesson on Thursday but when I've brought this up they just say - "try to do 4 lengths". That's why I was questioning whether there are drill sor something I could try or whether I just need to be patient and keep putting the time in.
TBH if that's their response I'd be looking for a different coach.

There are loads of instructional videos on you-tube which are excellent, but as I said, it's really hard to self coach as what you think you're doing isn't always what you're actually doing.


anonymous-user

59 months

Wednesday 6th February 2013
quotequote all
Kawasicki said:
I had exactly the same problem. I was confused because I inherited very good stamina, yet two lengths of a pool would kill me. The solution for me was simple, but it still took me a couple of months to figure it out. My problem was not enough breathing for my swimming work rate. So I slowed down, stopped kicking my legs so hard, and breathed WAY more, I spent more time gliding between arm pulls (reducing stroke rate).

Good luck.
And breathe out underwater so when you poke your head up, you're just taking in air. Sounds obvious but just checking what the OP is up to. hehe

Kawasicki

13,385 posts

240 months

Wednesday 6th February 2013
quotequote all
el stovey said:
Kawasicki said:
I had exactly the same problem. I was confused because I inherited very good stamina, yet two lengths of a pool would kill me. The solution for me was simple, but it still took me a couple of months to figure it out. My problem was not enough breathing for my swimming work rate. So I slowed down, stopped kicking my legs so hard, and breathed WAY more, I spent more time gliding between arm pulls (reducing stroke rate).

Good luck.
And breathe out underwater so when you poke your head up, you're just taking in air. Sounds obvious but just checking what the OP is up to. hehe
Yep, also I'm dense, I noticed that if I breathe out slowly then I start to sink, I worked out to breath out in a burst (under water) just before taking in some air.

gifdy

Original Poster:

2,073 posts

246 months

Wednesday 6th February 2013
quotequote all
rhinochopig said:
TBH if that's their response I'd be looking for a different coach.

There are loads of instructional videos on you-tube which are excellent, but as I said, it's really hard to self coach as what you think you're doing isn't always what you're actually doing.
Yeah, I haven't been too impressed and I won't be booking on for more. Perhaps I'll look for another coach. You're right about the self awareness thing...thinking about it I've just spent a week telling my girlfriend to get her weight forward on her skis and watching as she sticks her arse further out smile Not a bad thing in itself but it hasn't improved her skiing.

BoRED S2upid

20,161 posts

245 months

Wednesday 6th February 2013
quotequote all
Watch some videos on youtube of olympic swimming and notice how much the use or rather dont use their legs its all arms which is why they are built the way they are. Front crawl is a lot harder than breastroke I read somewhere that 2 lengths of front crawl is equivalent to 5 of brestroke.

2 lengths a short rest and repeat is fine and build up from there just keep at it. If they have swimming lessons for club members they will usually be doing reps of 5 and rest and repeat for what seems like hours on end.

gifdy

Original Poster:

2,073 posts

246 months

Wednesday 6th February 2013
quotequote all
Kawasicki said:
I had exactly the same problem. I was confused because I inherited very good stamina, yet two lengths of a pool would kill me. The solution for me was simple, but it still took me a couple of months to figure it out. My problem was not enough breathing for my swimming work rate. So I slowed down, stopped kicking my legs so hard, and breathed WAY more, I spent more time gliding between arm pulls (reducing stroke rate).

Good luck.
Interesting, thanks. There may be something in this. I do feel like I'm racing towards the edge of the pool sometimes - I've never been too comfortable in water.

Kawasicki

13,385 posts

240 months

Wednesday 6th February 2013
quotequote all
gifdy said:
Kawasicki said:
I had exactly the same problem. I was confused because I inherited very good stamina, yet two lengths of a pool would kill me. The solution for me was simple, but it still took me a couple of months to figure it out. My problem was not enough breathing for my swimming work rate. So I slowed down, stopped kicking my legs so hard, and breathed WAY more, I spent more time gliding between arm pulls (reducing stroke rate).

Good luck.
Interesting, thanks. There may be something in this. I do feel like I'm racing towards the edge of the pool sometimes - I've never been too comfortable in water.
Me neither, being tense takes oxygen. I swam for a couple of weeks in a pool with a tiled floor, it taught me that I can go 60% of my (utterly dire) peak speed with about 30% of the effort. I was a decent runner...swimming confused me, have a read...........


How Swimming Is Different From Running
Increasing your energy efficiency even modestly -- from, say, 3% to 4% -- can translate into a 33% improvement in your swimming.

By Terry Laughlin

The path to swimming-improvement is not to make more energy available through training, it’s to waste less energy by improving your stroke. Increasing your energy efficiency even modestly -- from, say, 3% to 4% -- can translate into a 33% improvement in your swimming.

How many Beginner Triathletes have concluded that swimming requires some exotic or elusive kind of fitness after an experience like this: Joe, a long-time runner for whom a 5-miler is barely a warmup, decides to try a pool workout one day. Within a few minutes, he’s panting for breath and wondering: “How will I ever get in a decent workout if I can’t even make 100 yards without dying?” Experiences like that probably convince many adult athletes that swimming is only for those who swam millions of yards as kids, and wondering if the time and effort required to master will even be worth it.

But mastering the “art of ease” in swimming is decidedly worthwhile. Not only will a good stroke allow you to enjoy and thrive in triathlon, but it provides a fitness-building and restorative workout that can give new life to your legs. The good news is that I’ve yet to meet a runner who could not learn to swim well enough to gain these benefits. All they have to do is discard everything running has taught them, as soon as they enter the pool.

Anyone from occasional joggers to dedicated marathoners knows this fundamental truth: Increase your mileage or intensity and your running improves. But when they apply the same logic to swimming, most novices quickly achieve what one of my former students christened “terminal mediocrity” -- after a few months, no amount of effort produces any further progress.

Here’s why: The world records for the mile run and the 400-meter swim are virtually identical. If you were to run once around the track with Alan Webb, America’s best miler, he’d beat you easily, but -- even if you’re purely a recreational jogger – by running easily and efficiently, you could nearly match the number of strides he took to cover 400 meters. If, on the other hand, you tried to swim 100 meters with Klete Keller, who broke the American 400-meter-freestyle record in Athens, not only would he beat you easily but – assuming you could complete 100 meters -- the difference between his stroke count and yours would be staggering. Keller and other elite freestylers can easily swim 25-yards in 7 or 8 strokes (counting each hand entry as one stroke), while Beginner Triathles typically average 20 to 25 strokes for the same distance.

And that threefold difference in stroke efficiency is only half the story. A world-class runner is about 90% mechanically efficient, meaning that 90 of every 100 calories expended produce forward motion, while approximately 10 are lost to muscle heat, ground friction, wind resistance, etc.. Because water is 900 times thicker than air and highly unstable as a medium for applying power, a world-class swimmer is only 9% mechanically efficient -- which means the typical Beginner Triathlete probably has energy efficiency of about 3 percent. Thus, the path to swimming-improvement is not to make more energy available through training, it’s to waste less energy by improving your stroke. If you can increase your mechanical efficiency even modestly -- from, say, 3% to 4% -- that will translate into a 33% improvement in your swimming capacity. No workout program can produce those kinds of results, but I’ve routinely seen swimmers in Total Immersion workshops achieve that sort in a single weekend.

Running is a sport; swimming is an art.

What makes swimming different? Simply put, running is a natural activity, while swimming is a “natural struggle.” The world's best swimmers move through the water with grace, economy and flow, while novices are awkward, clumsy and inefficient. You needn’t lose any sleep if this describes you; my extensive teaching experience suggests that very few people have the innate ability to swim fluently. But I’ve also learned that the rest of us can learn to swim well if we take the time to master swimming as an art before tackling it as a sport. When you focus on swimming more and more yards, you just imprint what I call “struggling skills.” Instead focus on swimming short distances slowly without fighting the water or yourself, then patiently develop your ability to do that for progressively greater distances or at marginally faster speeds. Here’s a quick plan for learning to move like water in the pool:

1. Swim slowly. Racing the clock -- or other swimmers -- will only cause you to thrash and splash. Swimming slowly is the best way to begin developing habits of efficiency and economy. And while swimming slowly, practice the following:

2. Count your strokes. Your best measure of efficiency is how many strokes you take getting across the pool. Set an initial target 10% lower than your norm. If you usually take 22 strokes per length (spl), make 20 your goal -- using ease, not strain, to make it. After any length that exceeds your target, rest longer -- try five or more deep, slow breaths as a recovery interval -- before starting again. Allow at least two to three hours of cumulative practice, over several 30-minute sessions, to adapt before reducing your spl further.

3. Look Down. Forget the old rule about looking forward; a high head position is bad for your neck and spine and creates extra drag. Look directly at the bottom and focus on a long “head-spine-line.” Ask a friend to check that no more than a sliver of the back of your head is visible above the surface.

4. Swim Silently. Noise and splash are the clearest evidence of wasted energy. Anything you do that results in a quieter stroke will also increase your efficiency, lower your spl, and reduce fatigue.

5. Swim less, drill more. If you find yourself unable to reduce your spl to a consistent 20 or fewer strokes per 25 yards, your stroke inefficiencies are so stubborn that every lap you do simply makes them more permanent better. The quickest way to build new “fishlike” movement patterns is to practice skill drills rather than conventional swimming. Try doing up to 80% of your laps in stroke drills for the next month or two and see how your stroke reacts.


Happy laps!


Terry Laughlin is founder and head coach of Total Immersion Swimming and the author of Triathlon Swimming: Made Easy. The Total Immersion skill-building drill series is illustrated on the video Freestyle: Made Easy. Information: www.totalimmersion.net or 800-609-SWIM.

IroningMan

10,242 posts

251 months

Wednesday 6th February 2013
quotequote all
Find a Swim Smooth coach, or a good TI (Total Immersion, see post above) specialist, but in the meantime slow down, breathe out under water, and get your face turned as early in the stroke as possible in order to maximise the time you have in which to pull air in: I get stubble rash on my right shoulder from my chin.

What's your breathing pattern when you breathe bilaterally?

nick s

1,371 posts

222 months

Wednesday 6th February 2013
quotequote all
I'm 99% sure that it's because you;'ve just started swimming, and are attemtping bilatreral breathing straight away. That's a breath every 3 strokes, and you won't be fit enough for that yet!

It took me ages to be fit enough to swim with bilateral bretahing for a sustained period, even though i had been running and cycling for months before. Swim fitness is completely different.

I wouldn't mind betting that if you swapped to breathing on your favoured side every 2 strokes, you would be absolutely fine!!! Then slowly build up to bilateral.

OneDs

1,629 posts

181 months

Wednesday 6th February 2013
quotequote all
The TI stuff is good for ok swimmers who have the strength and awareness to maintain the right posture and stroke length and can make adjustments and understand what those adjustments are for. Sometimes it doesn't work too well for complete beginners or people who have very little swimming history because it assumes a level of competence and self-awareness. It's very difficult to get the innate sense of what your body is actually doing with your face in the water and even when you get corrections from a coach there is no way you can translate that in to how it should feel for you personally.

A good way to start to get past this is to get your coach to record you swimming and point out to you the errors on screen.

As others have said you really need to relax to swim efficiently, stroke count is a good overall measure, it is the end result of good technique, good power application, efficient recovery, ideal body position, timing and a whole host of other basics.

Your still doing the basics, you need to build up the muscle memory so you no longer have to think about doing the basics right. You need pool time to do this so swimming slower and further is your first step. When you have the technique and you can swimming efficently without thinking about it, then you can worry about swimming faster with longer strokes.

I've said this before on here, my coaches favourite saying was "practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect".

gifdy

Original Poster:

2,073 posts

246 months

Wednesday 6th February 2013
quotequote all
Great article - thanks for taking the time to post it. I see many parallels with skiing; the better the technique, the less energy you need to make the turns. I'll count my strokes per length to get a gauge of how efficient my stroke is.

It was a conscious decision to start with bilateral rather than one sided because of my back problem. I wanted to be as symmetric as possible. I take a breath every 3 strokes although if I'm struggling I will switch to one sided for a couple of strokes. That may have been the wrong decision but I'll stick with it a bit longer and try some of techniques suggested to see if I can crack it as bilateral is where I want to end up.

IroningMan

10,242 posts

251 months

Wednesday 6th February 2013
quotequote all
OneDs said:
I've said this before on here, my coaches favourite saying was "practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect".
'Practice makes permanent.'

gifdy

Original Poster:

2,073 posts

246 months

Thursday 7th February 2013
quotequote all
OK, just had my lesson. I was doing 23-24 strokes per length plus the push off the side.

I managed 3 lengths in a row but switched to breathing every 2 strokes on the 3rd length. The lesson was tumble turns so I never got a lot of chance to try anything else. I'll try the float thing on Sat.

Vladimir

6,917 posts

163 months

Friday 8th February 2013
quotequote all
I find it really hard to get the right rhythm when pool swimming yet have no (well much!) problem in open water. The former sees 500m a struggle, the latter I have no problem doing a mile or more. Weird!

MocMocaMoc

1,524 posts

146 months

Friday 8th February 2013
quotequote all
Kawasicki said:
Me neither, being tense takes oxygen. I swam for a couple of weeks in a pool with a tiled floor, it taught me that I can go 60% of my (utterly dire) peak speed with about 30% of the effort. I was a decent runner...swimming confused me, have a read...........


How Swimming Is Different From Running
Increasing your energy efficiency even modestly -- from, say, 3% to 4% -- can translate into a 33% improvement in your swimming.

By Terry Laughlin

The path to swimming-improvement is not to make more energy available through training, it’s to waste less energy by improving your stroke. Increasing your energy efficiency even modestly -- from, say, 3% to 4% -- can translate into a 33% improvement in your swimming.

How many Beginner Triathletes have concluded that swimming requires some exotic or elusive kind of fitness after an experience like this: Joe, a long-time runner for whom a 5-miler is barely a warmup, decides to try a pool workout one day. Within a few minutes, he’s panting for breath and wondering: “How will I ever get in a decent workout if I can’t even make 100 yards without dying?” Experiences like that probably convince many adult athletes that swimming is only for those who swam millions of yards as kids, and wondering if the time and effort required to master will even be worth it.

But mastering the “art of ease” in swimming is decidedly worthwhile. Not only will a good stroke allow you to enjoy and thrive in triathlon, but it provides a fitness-building and restorative workout that can give new life to your legs. The good news is that I’ve yet to meet a runner who could not learn to swim well enough to gain these benefits. All they have to do is discard everything running has taught them, as soon as they enter the pool.

Anyone from occasional joggers to dedicated marathoners knows this fundamental truth: Increase your mileage or intensity and your running improves. But when they apply the same logic to swimming, most novices quickly achieve what one of my former students christened “terminal mediocrity” -- after a few months, no amount of effort produces any further progress.

Here’s why: The world records for the mile run and the 400-meter swim are virtually identical. If you were to run once around the track with Alan Webb, America’s best miler, he’d beat you easily, but -- even if you’re purely a recreational jogger – by running easily and efficiently, you could nearly match the number of strides he took to cover 400 meters. If, on the other hand, you tried to swim 100 meters with Klete Keller, who broke the American 400-meter-freestyle record in Athens, not only would he beat you easily but – assuming you could complete 100 meters -- the difference between his stroke count and yours would be staggering. Keller and other elite freestylers can easily swim 25-yards in 7 or 8 strokes (counting each hand entry as one stroke), while Beginner Triathles typically average 20 to 25 strokes for the same distance.

And that threefold difference in stroke efficiency is only half the story. A world-class runner is about 90% mechanically efficient, meaning that 90 of every 100 calories expended produce forward motion, while approximately 10 are lost to muscle heat, ground friction, wind resistance, etc.. Because water is 900 times thicker than air and highly unstable as a medium for applying power, a world-class swimmer is only 9% mechanically efficient -- which means the typical Beginner Triathlete probably has energy efficiency of about 3 percent. Thus, the path to swimming-improvement is not to make more energy available through training, it’s to waste less energy by improving your stroke. If you can increase your mechanical efficiency even modestly -- from, say, 3% to 4% -- that will translate into a 33% improvement in your swimming capacity. No workout program can produce those kinds of results, but I’ve routinely seen swimmers in Total Immersion workshops achieve that sort in a single weekend.

Running is a sport; swimming is an art.

What makes swimming different? Simply put, running is a natural activity, while swimming is a “natural struggle.” The world's best swimmers move through the water with grace, economy and flow, while novices are awkward, clumsy and inefficient. You needn’t lose any sleep if this describes you; my extensive teaching experience suggests that very few people have the innate ability to swim fluently. But I’ve also learned that the rest of us can learn to swim well if we take the time to master swimming as an art before tackling it as a sport. When you focus on swimming more and more yards, you just imprint what I call “struggling skills.” Instead focus on swimming short distances slowly without fighting the water or yourself, then patiently develop your ability to do that for progressively greater distances or at marginally faster speeds. Here’s a quick plan for learning to move like water in the pool:

1. Swim slowly. Racing the clock -- or other swimmers -- will only cause you to thrash and splash. Swimming slowly is the best way to begin developing habits of efficiency and economy. And while swimming slowly, practice the following:

2. Count your strokes. Your best measure of efficiency is how many strokes you take getting across the pool. Set an initial target 10% lower than your norm. If you usually take 22 strokes per length (spl), make 20 your goal -- using ease, not strain, to make it. After any length that exceeds your target, rest longer -- try five or more deep, slow breaths as a recovery interval -- before starting again. Allow at least two to three hours of cumulative practice, over several 30-minute sessions, to adapt before reducing your spl further.

3. Look Down. Forget the old rule about looking forward; a high head position is bad for your neck and spine and creates extra drag. Look directly at the bottom and focus on a long “head-spine-line.” Ask a friend to check that no more than a sliver of the back of your head is visible above the surface.

4. Swim Silently. Noise and splash are the clearest evidence of wasted energy. Anything you do that results in a quieter stroke will also increase your efficiency, lower your spl, and reduce fatigue.

5. Swim less, drill more. If you find yourself unable to reduce your spl to a consistent 20 or fewer strokes per 25 yards, your stroke inefficiencies are so stubborn that every lap you do simply makes them more permanent better. The quickest way to build new “fishlike” movement patterns is to practice skill drills rather than conventional swimming. Try doing up to 80% of your laps in stroke drills for the next month or two and see how your stroke reacts.


Happy laps!


Terry Laughlin is founder and head coach of Total Immersion Swimming and the author of Triathlon Swimming: Made Easy. The Total Immersion skill-building drill series is illustrated on the video Freestyle: Made Easy. Information: www.totalimmersion.net or 800-609-SWIM.
THIS! ALL OF THIS!

I took up swimming late last year, after years of running and cycling. All of this I can relate too!

Two legnths was my absolute limit too. It'll come, in time, but it took me far longer to see improvements than it did running or cycling. Swimming is a HARD sport! (ahem, art!)

As mentioned above, switch your legs off by sticking a float between them. This works wonders for your engery over a length. Keep your head down to raise your a*rse to create a stream lined position, and I've found when taking a breath reach down with your opposite arm to put your torso at a more extreme angle... once you get used to rocking your whole body and get a decent lung full on each breath then tidy up your arms.

I'm really taken with swimming - there's so much to learn. A very worthwhile spo... ART!

gifdy

Original Poster:

2,073 posts

246 months

Saturday 9th February 2013
quotequote all
All good advice - thanks. Never got to the pool today but will try the float next trip. I've also justified a swim watch to myself to track my stats. If in doubt - buy gadgetry smile