Discussion
944fan said:
As far as I know it was developed for and used by the Israeli Defence Force, so it is a real "martial art".
Its basic principle is knocking seven shades of s
t out of people.
that's as much as i know already Its basic principle is knocking seven shades of s
t out of people. 
just wondering if any of the powerfully-built crew actually train in it.
Like in any martial art the interpretation and quality/style of teaching can vary greatly from club to club.
As it has grown to become the current 'fashionable' martial art so many pro/semi pro martial arts instructors from diverse backgrounds have retrained to become instructors. Not dissimilar to how 'Zumba' has impacted the fitness training sector, google 'krav maga instructor course'.
The style has many similar moves the the form of Wing Chun I studied at one club, though they were a particularly excellent progressive organisation focusing on plenty of applied full contact sparring with experts from other disciplines and adapting the style for competing in MMA. Kali and Jeet Kune Do have some similarities too.
I'd check out the background of the instructors and try a couple of the nearest classes to see which you prefer.
Have fun!
As it has grown to become the current 'fashionable' martial art so many pro/semi pro martial arts instructors from diverse backgrounds have retrained to become instructors. Not dissimilar to how 'Zumba' has impacted the fitness training sector, google 'krav maga instructor course'.
The style has many similar moves the the form of Wing Chun I studied at one club, though they were a particularly excellent progressive organisation focusing on plenty of applied full contact sparring with experts from other disciplines and adapting the style for competing in MMA. Kali and Jeet Kune Do have some similarities too.
I'd check out the background of the instructors and try a couple of the nearest classes to see which you prefer.
Have fun!
I hold belts in 2 styles of karate, one of them black, so I'm not a complete beginner to martial arts... but both those styles are more technique, form and power focused rather than agility and usable 'fight-skills' based. What would put me off however is the current fashion for MMA. I would be concerned that the classes would be filled with nutters and scallies.
So, it's full-contact with padding right?
So, it's full-contact with padding right?
Blown2CV said:
So, it's full-contact with padding right?
What Krav or WC? It was a mix in WC, 'full' usually involved pads, 'semi' didn't, or sometimes just head guards. Generally it tended to be hard enough to hurt but not enough to incapacitate so similar to the Krav & 'Street Combat' I've tried. I know what you mean re. wanting to learn and apply 'fighting skills', I find form and technique ('belt chasing') a bit boring without 'fight skills'.
Knowing some of the local Chavs and Scallies isn't always a bad thing either!
Rick101 said:
1st Dan here too.
Went along to watch a Krav class once. Instructor was a complete charlaton taking money from folk wanting to get into a 'fashionable' art.
Didn't end up watching as he wanted to charge me £10 to spectate on his secret MA skills!
That's exactly the thing i wanted to avoid!! Went along to watch a Krav class once. Instructor was a complete charlaton taking money from folk wanting to get into a 'fashionable' art.
Didn't end up watching as he wanted to charge me £10 to spectate on his secret MA skills!
Blown2CV said:
What would put me off however is the current fashion for MMA. I would be concerned that the classes would be filled with nutters and scallies.
Nah, scallies generally turn up now and then for their first class but can't tough it out when they realise how steep the learning curve is. My local MMA gym has a wide cross section including a Professor, a few guys studying for their PHD, a book seller, guys who run their own businesses etc. So don't let the perceived image put you off. Haggleburyfinius said:
I actually teach Krav Maga.
Fire away with any specific questions.
Do you drill with resistance & spar? In my experience the vast majority of Self Defense systems are flawed due to poor training/teaching methods with lack of resistance training & fight conditioning (Geoff Thompson being the notable exception). I haven't had any first hand exposure to KM; but looking at youtube I'm seeing a lot of KM demonstrations that display choreographed defense sequences to non-committal attacks from compliant opponents which doesn't seem too far removed from other traditional martial arts & self defense systems, or is there more than this? Fire away with any specific questions.
Gogoplata said:
Haggleburyfinius said:
I actually teach Krav Maga.
Fire away with any specific questions.
Do you drill with resistance & spar? In my experience the vast majority of Self Defense systems are flawed due to poor training/teaching methods with lack of resistance training & fight conditioning (Geoff Thompson being the notable exception). I haven't had any first hand exposure to KM; but looking at youtube I'm seeing a lot of KM demonstrations that display choreographed defense sequences to non-committal attacks from compliant opponents which doesn't seem too far removed from other traditional martial arts & self defense systems, or is there more than this? Fire away with any specific questions.
Re the Youtube videos. There would be little point in posting videos that show things being done at lifelike pace as there is no scope for the viewer to see what's going on. I reckon that most of these are posted by schools looking to entice students (quite rightly) and they are intending to show that KM is actually quite easy to pick up and learn. I have made videos for my schools and getting them right often means making them very slow and simple.
To me, sparring should be done like in any martial art: very gently and slowly to begin with. Over time the ferocity of the sparring can be increased. KM would be pretty useless without it tbh. I only teach KM to existing martial arts instructors (my own who I employ) essentially for fun; so we really get stuck in and smash each other up. I don't think I would teach it in quite the same way to beginners to martial arts though.
The beauty of KM is its efficiency; I'm not going to lie though, 100% of it can be found in just about every traditional martial art out there. There are only so many ways to punch, kick etc etc. Just KM has none of the spitiual stuff or useless, passed down through the ages methods to dismount a rider etc. These things have their place but not in a "street defence" style.
The problem with all martial arts is that over time they become commercialised. There is nothing inherently wrong with this imho but eventually you run out of martial arts to turn into businesses. KM is just the latest in a long line to develop this way. Karate taught here by Japanese in the 60s doesn't resemble Karate taught today in any shape or form. Same for Kung Fu in the 70s or Kickboxing in the 80s.
The reason for this commercialisation is simple; it's like the millions of guys running around in MMA shirts...they like the image of the fighting but not the actual fighting. There is only one way to make a martial arts school profitable and that is to teach to the average guy and girl. It is a shame but it is what it is.
Halb said:
Haggleburyfinius said:
The reason for this commercialisation is simple; it's like the millions of guys running around in MMA shirts...they like the image of the fighting but not the actual fighting.
The stuff that was taught when it first became popular.
How does it differ?
I'm not sure whether you are referring to KM or MMA so I will try and answer the question for both.
The best place to look at regarding the evolution of MMA is the States (they're usually 10 years or so ahead of the industry in the UK). A lot of schools have tried unsuccessfully there to cash in on the popularity of the UFC. Aside from the few famous gyms, it has mostly been a failure. As a result, these academies have tried a few new things:
The first is "Cage Combat" or various other names given to the kickboxercise esque version of MMA: no contact, just lots of pad/shield work and ground and pound against MMA dummies (the training aids, not the fighters ;-) ). A few of the UFC stars put their names to these programmes a couple of years back.
The second is using MMA as a feeder for their traditional stand up or ground game lessons. They say things like "In order to progress to our MMA squad you need to go xyz in kickboxing/MT or abs in ground fighting)".
Here in the UK MMA isn't popular enough, or mainstream enough really to give enough impetus to either of the above. There are a lot of great gyms training MMA though; just no commercial aspect of any real significance. There is more money to be made out of promoting MMA shows than training centres.
A few years ago at the height of the UK UFC boom (whatever happened to the show here every 6 weeks I was promised personally by DW I have no idea!) we tried introducing MMA to our timetable at a centre. I hired a relatively experienced MMA fighter and spent a fair old whack promoting it. Nobody with the means to actually pay for their lessons really signed up. We quietly dropped it after 6 months and went back to the old faithfuls of KB and KF.
So, in conclusion, MMA training hasn't really changed at all here (obviously new training methods arrive all the time etc) but is still a tiny, tiny sport. MMA is the only MA where the big players are promoters and apparel manufacturers. Usually it's the big teaching associations and kit suppliers in other MA. MMA is basically like boxing, without the massive, massive paycheques for the top guys. That is the result of the UFC monopoly and good luck to them; awesome business!
KM
As alluded to in the post below yours, KM contains (and actively encourages) gratuitous violence. This is really rather hard to train for tbh. How do you really train for an eye gouge? How do you repeat the intensity of real life fighting scenarios? It is hard.
What happens is that you usually get a guy who loves his martial arts. Loves it a little too much really and begins to dream of a life where all he does is teach and train himself. So he begins advertising for his classes and gets some new students. Due to his own love of the art, the classes are like he would want to be taught. Problem is, hardly anyone else wants to train that way so he struggles to make enough money to pay his bills.
Soon he has only 2 choices: give up or commercialise. As a result, the hard core stuff dies out via an evolutionary process to be replaced by a commercial art that focusses on providing the mainstream what it wants; which is usually the t shirt and some fitness training.
KM is just the only "new" martial art to emerge in the last 10 years and so its commercialisation is happening before our eyes.
I could put together a commercial KM syllabus in half an hour that I could guarantee would be a success; with experience of what the mass market wants it is all too easy.
The trick for an instructor is to use the commercial classes as a feeder for those who really want to train like a nutcase; making sure that your syllabus contains all the basics to a good enough degree that those alluded to can make the transition to a smaller, more focussed group of like minded individuals that one can train without worrying about who is paying the mortgage.
I stopped teaching beginner students a long time ago so get my kicks out of training with my instructors.
Don1 said:
From what I understood (from very limited exposure ie chat in the locker room), is that KM looked to take people down and keep them down first shot? Do groin strikes, neck area, back of head etc, the nastier locks were employed?
Or is that just utter rubbish?
To be honest, I would say that ground fighting is the last resort of a KM practitioner. The ground is a dangerous place to be; it exposes you to additional assailants who may arrive from nowhere and kick your head in.Or is that just utter rubbish?
That's not to say we don't train for ground fighting; we do.
You are right that its aim is to incapacitate an opponent as quickly and brutally as possible; using whatever means necessary,
Oddly, my favourite defences are against firearms; I love training them despite the fact that the chances of me every facing a handgun, let alone an M16 are remote to non
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