English cricket supporters...do we dare to dream yet?

[DJRC]

Remember the dark days?

Slater
Taylor
Waugh
Viv
Richie
Dessie
Curtley
Courtney
Merv
Warne
Alderman
Glenda
Pollock
Donald
Gilchrist
...

Another test series, another summer of wondering how England were going to ruin the summer. Who would be the first to lead the collapse? How would FEC get out to Glenda this week? How quickly could Pollock and Donald go through England, how long could Pollock manage to frustrate an entire England attack, how quickly could Gilchrist beat England on his own?

How basically would England contrive to heap more misery on her fans? When the only badge of pride was to say you were a member of Michael Atherton's Barmy Army because you were bored of it raining at Old Trafford again.


Do we finally dare believe that those dark days are truelly behind us? Has Matt Prior really buried out core belief that the middle order collapse is the default state of an England batting innings? Can we bring ourselves to say those immortal, cursed, longed for and despaired over words...England are a good team?



And to any who dont quite understand the deep despairing depressive black agony of the above sentiments, then in the words of Vietnam Vets everwhere...You werent there man, you werent there...

[Gargamel]

i was very much there. When Devon Malcolm annihilated SA at the OVAL and I thought, that is it we are on the way to glory, only to see it thrown away yet again. When men like ben hollioake look like the answer then the problems are too difficult to deal with.


I think we probably are the best Test team right now. Certainly in Jimmy A we have the worlds best bowler, bar no-one

[Beardy10]

DJRC said:

Remember the dark days?

I do...and my god it was painful. I have a personal theory that England were involved in match fixing in those days.....I just don't believe that we are the only major cricketing nation that has never been involved with it. We know India, SA, Australia (though they buried it) and Pakistan were all involved. Certainly some of those epic middle order collapses would have made great betting opportunities.........

But we were crap.

I'd question some of the players in that list though...think you're going back a bit far! We were only really crap in the 90's. We had some bloody good players in the 80's and Windies apart (who were obv a class apart) gave as good as we got.

Thorpe, Stewart, Atherton and Fraser were all class players for England in the 90's. Not forgetting David Lloyds's high quality coaching which shines forth in his incisive commentary........

[Beardy10]

DJRC said:

Do we finally dare believe that those dark days are truelly behind us? Has Matt Prior really buried out core belief that the middle order collapse is the default state of an England batting innings? Can we bring ourselves to say those immortal, cursed, longed for and despaired over words...England are a good team?

The thing that does give me hope is that this team has a good spread of age in it and that especially in the seam/quick department bowling we have genuine competition which given the propensity for injuries/fatigue is very important.

[DJRC]

All those mentioned above were playing upto the early 09s bar Alderman I think, but then I also remember Terry giving England a working over.

My hazy memories have England going pear shaped after about 1990 or so.

And yes, we had FEC, Steward, Thorpe in the batting order and we still managed to make dust look substantial at times. Dazzler, Caddick, Cork...all class bowlers who only seemed to bowl in fits and starts. We ignored our best bowler in Martin Bicknell for God knows what reason and our best spin bowler prefered larking about with Gower or sleeping. Dark, dark days.

[Beardy10]

DJRC said:

All those mentioned above were playing upto the early 09s bar Alderman I think, but then I also remember Terry giving England a working over.

My hazy memories have England going pear shaped after about 1990 or so.

And yes, we had FEC, Steward, Thorpe in the batting order and we still managed to make dust look substantial at times. Dazzler, Caddick, Cork...all class bowlers who only seemed to bowl in fits and starts. We ignored our best bowler in Martin Bicknell for God knows what reason and our best spin bowler prefered larking about with Gower or sleeping. Dark, dark days.

I think we both have hazy memories but as you say I certainly remember Alderman having it over Gooch in one series over here. Sir Vivian retired in '91 so only just in the 90's!

We were a bunch of somewhat talented individuals who totally failed to perform as a team.

It's also worth remembering though that every other team had some real class in the bowling department which was our achilles heal.....Curtley and Courtney, Pollock and Donald, Wasim and Waqar, McGrath and Warne, Murali etc

We had nothing to compete with that and as we all know bowling wins test matches.

[DJRC]

And I didnt even include W & W in the list! Or Imran.

How many times did bloody Akram smack us about the place then rip stumps out?

[anonymous-user]

The dark days are indeed behind us, it's all down to KP. He even says so himself.

[Helicopter123]

I think we have a very very good attack, and depth in the seam department as well.

Our batting looks strong and all the way down and never looks like a collapse. Each of our wickets needs to be prised out.

Best of all, is the collective, the team. I don't look at the England team and think, gosh, aren't they superstars? - they are all part of a unit working towards being the best 11 on the planet.

If I was being "ultra picky" a back up spinner would be a plus and a "hollywood" number 3 would be something but to be honest that really is being picky.

[Gargamel]

If one of our top six bats gets injured, who comes in ?

[fathomfive]

Gargamel said:

If one of our top six bats gets injured, who comes in ?

On recent history the names Bopara and Shah would be bandied about.

Good players but would, in my view and despite their class, be very much weak links.

I think Bopara would get the shout because of his bowling ability.

ETA: I'm not quite at the point where I think the collapse has been eradicated, but then I doubt any team ever is.

What I do think is we have the strength of character, belief and the players to pull something special out of the bag when it is absolutely needed.

Just like the other teams who have been titled 'best in the world'.

And, just like those teams, on our day we are quite an irresistible force.

Edited by fathomfive on Tuesday 26th July 12:35

[CedGTV]

Just getting over yesterday's excesses and a rather far too many pictures on the Npower girls.....

Great day out and well done England.

[Beardy10]

fathomfive said:

On recent history the names Bopara and Shah would be bandied about.

Good players but would, in my view and despite their class, be very much weak links.

I think Bopara would get the shout because of his bowling ability.

ETA: I'm not quite at the point where I think the collapse has been eradicated, but then I doubt any team ever is.

What I do think is we have the strength of character, belief and the players to pull something special out of the bag when it is absolutely needed.

Just like the other teams who have been titled 'best in the world'.

And, just like those teams, on our day we are quite an irresistible force.

Edited by fathomfive on Tuesday 26th July 12:35

Agree with this. There are times when teams/players can really produce under pressure.....you'd not put Steve Waugh up there in the Top 20 most stylish/talented batsmen but there was a time when he and Healey ALWAYS made runs when it was most needed.

[DJRC]

Oh God Id forgotten that annoying little bd!

[fathomfive]

Beardy10 said:

Agree with this. There are times when teams/players can really produce under pressure.....you'd not put Steve Waugh up there in the Top 20 most stylish/talented batsmen but there was a time when he and Healey ALWAYS made runs when it was most needed.

the bds

On Sunday, as Prior and Broad plugged away, I had the polar opposite feeling of that which I had all the times I watched McGrath / Warne destroy our batting or Gilchrist / Ponting pull a century from nowhere. If that makes sense?

It's little wonder the Aussies were so gobsmacked over the winter, if these are the feelings they had become so used to over the years

[Beardy10]

fathomfive said:

It's little wonder the Aussies were so gobsmacked over the winter, if these are the feelings they had become so used to over the years

And the very pleasing thing is that I don't see them coming back any time soon. They are where we were in the 90's.....a few decent batsmen but nothing special in the bowling department.....and a selection panel that got lazy. History is littered with examples of teams that take a long time to recover from the retirement of some all time great players.

[DJRC]

The daft thing about this England team when you look at it is that in a cpl of seasons time when say Strauss is ready to retire, the top 3 "rated" English test batsmen in terms of tons could all be in the current side with a 4th Trott into the top 5. I find that incredible, but that is the rate they have been turning out hundreds between them over the last few years. FEC II could re-write the sodding record book for England if he isnt careful.

Jimmy and Swann are the special two though. They scare people out mentally. What weapons to have in your armoury. Guns and Broad are impact merchants to a degree, Bresnan and Finn are quality backups whilst Jimmy and Swann can perform any task you ask of them. Jimmy is now a world class bowler in any conditions and in the right ones he is simply unplayable. Can you imagine what he would do to India at Trent Bridge on an overcast day?

And for something really daft? Jimmy can claim Sachin as his bunny! Check the stats, made me giggle as I thought someone was taking the piss when it was first mentioned, but I think its the 7th time now Jimmy has got him.

[fathomfive]

DJRC said:

The daft thing about this England team when you look at it is that in a cpl of seasons time when say Strauss is ready to retire, the top 3 "rated" English test batsmen in terms of tons could all be in the current side with a 4th Trott into the top 5. I find that incredible, but that is the rate they have been turning out hundreds between them over the last few years. FEC II could re-write the sodding record book for England if he isnt careful.

Jimmy and Swann are the special two though. They scare people out mentally. What weapons to have in your armoury. Guns and Broad are impact merchants to a degree, Bresnan and Finn are quality backups whilst Jimmy and Swann can perform any task you ask of them. Jimmy is now a world class bowler in any conditions and in the right ones he is simply unplayable. Can you imagine what he would do to India at Trent Bridge on an overcast day?

And for something really daft? Jimmy can claim Sachin as his bunny! Check the stats, made me giggle as I thought someone was taking the piss when it was first mentioned, but I think its the 7th time now Jimmy has got him.

I'm off to Nottingham on Friday as it happens, though not to see any cricket unfortunately. I'm hoping it will be a little overcast, Strauss will win the toss, stick India in and throw the ball to Jimmy.

Here is a question for you all:

Of the (England) bowling attack which featured in the last test, and on a magical wicket which has pace / bounce / swing / turn (ie not favouring one over the other), which of the bowlers would you rather face and which would you rather not?

Me? Well I'd love to face Swanny as I don't think TV can quite do justice to the difficulty / technique of facing spin as obviously as swing / pace bowling.

On the flip side, I'd hate to face Tremlett. Hate it. I think the closest I'd get the bat to the ball is when it landed on the ground next to me after being flattened.

[Beardy10]

fathomfive said:

Here is a question for you all:

Of the (England) bowling attack which featured in the last test, and on a magical wicket which has pace / bounce / swing / turn (ie not favouring one over the other), which of the bowlers would you rather face and which would you rather not?

Me? Well I'd love to face Swanny as I don't think TV can quite do justice to the difficulty / technique of facing spin as obviously as swing / pace bowling.

On the flip side, I'd hate to face Tremlett. Hate it. I think the closest I'd get the bat to the ball is when it landed on the ground next to me after being flattened.

Well I am sure I couldn't lay a bat on Swann on a turning pitch.....he would also be bowling much quicker than you imagine. It would seem like nippy medium pace "village green cricket".But would be great fun.

TV doesn't do justice to the difficulty of facing quicks....most people wouldn't actually pick the ball up unless they have played to a pretty high level...I certainly wouldn't. But Tremlett definitely.....the bounce would make him extremely scary to face. If you sit side on at a ground and actually watch how quickly the ball is in the 'keepers gloves when someone is bowling genuine 90 mph plus it's pretty frightening.

Closest I have ever been to facing proper quick bowling was in a baseball batting cage in New York they had 60mph and 90 mph cages......90 mph was just swinging and hoping you might get something on it you had no idea where the ball actually was.

[fathomfive]

Beardy10 said:

Well I am sure I couldn't lay a bat on Swann on a turning pitch.....he would also be bowling much quicker than you imagine. It would seem like nippy medium pace "village green cricket".But would be great fun.

Back in my teens we had a villagers v farmers cricket match every summer.

There was nothing medium pace* about the rocks the farmers hurled down

• actually probably a lot less than medium pace, but being half their size and on a 'wicket' which would make the surface of the moon look smooth and with only a pair of shoddy pads and gloves on, the opportunity for facial disfigurement was somewhat unsettling. Especially from the other end when ball happened to meet nose one year...

Bloody good fun though.

Happy days.


ETA: I have no silly notion that I'd be laying a bat on anything Swann bowled. He is less likely to flatten me though