LSD?

[shoestring7]

I'm looking at specifying a new Mini Cooper S as lightweight drivers car. The chances of getting back to back test drives of cars with various options are slim; the dealer appears the think that the more you spend on them the better they are.

I've driven 1st series cars; the first with 16" wheels and regular tyres; it was a blast and I nearly went for it then. Later I tried a car on bigger wheels and runflats and was very dissapointed; all steering delicacy I remembered had gone, the ride was harsh and its 'B' road abilities severely limited.

So currently I'm looking at a vanilla MCS on 16s, and will buy a second set of wheels & tyres. However I'd like to know what difference the lsd and 'sports' suspension options make to the ride/handling/steering. Does lsd increase understeer and torque steer?

The salesguy is friendly enough, but I did have to explain the stability control isn't the same as traction control,so I couldn't get a decent answer off him.

thanks

SS7

[shoestring7]

No-one?

Is there a decent MINI forum I can head off too?

SS7

[pembo]

I'd have a word with the guys on the minitorque forum about things like that, they seem to be pretty good when it comes to tuning matters.

[Farky]

shoestring7 said:

No-one?

Is there a decent MINI forum I can head off too?

SS7

mini2- good for parts and if you need advice on how to fix a problem

totalmini- similar as its largely those who left mini2

minitorque- focus on performance

motoringunderground - brilliant for seeing how they do things on the other side of the pond

[Wilburo]

This sounds very interesting - can you tell us some more about what your aims are?

My car has the 17"s with Sports Suspension+. I agree with you about it limiting speed on b-roads - it can get too bumpy to see / feel what's happening. I believe that this is caused by the wheels as opposed to the suspension, which seems very good - the chassis changes direction very quickly, with very little bodyroll. There's also a hint of oversteer on turn-in, which should help dial out understeer.

With this in mind, I believe that the 16"s with sports suspension would be the best route forward.

[shoestring7]

Wilburo said:

This sounds very interesting - can you tell us some more about what your aims are?

My car has the 17"s with Sports Suspension+. I agree with you about it limiting speed on b-roads - it can get too bumpy to see / feel what's happening. I believe that this is caused by the wheels as opposed to the suspension, which seems very good - the chassis changes direction very quickly, with very little bodyroll. There's also a hint of oversteer on turn-in, which should help dial out understeer.

With this in mind, I believe that the 16"s with sports suspension would be the best route forward.

Hi,

I suppose I'm trying to replicate the ClubSport spec. as used by Porsche; take some weight out of the car, keep the doo-dah's to a minumum and the costs down. I also want a decent ride, but with good wheel control for 'B' road use. Things like my old Lancia Integrale were exceptional in this respect; modern's are pretty hopeless, one sporty Audi I drove near chucked me into the ditch when it hit a sequence of bumps that foiled the suspension. A pox on Nurburgring development!

Its also very easy to spec. a MINI Cooper S to beyond £20k without really making it anymore satisfactory to own. And talk of poor re-sale is usually nonsense, its the options that represent most depreciation in the value of a car, the vanilla MCS comes with aircon and sports seats as well as all the important oily bits. As an example I recently sold a plainly spec'd Cayman (no leather, no paint, no Satnav..) in three days. As an aside, this is another car very sensitive to wheel choice.

I've not driven the Gen2 MINI's, so my comments about response and feedback relate to the supercharged cars. The other big difference is that the cars now come with runflat tyres, and it seems that the RFT's stiff sidewalls are mainly responsible for the ride deterioration, but the 17" wheels increased unsprung weight will probably also adversely affect ride and steering.

From what I can read the lsd is a worthwhile option at £170, as it improves traction without adding torque steer or turn-in understeer. I guess its a torsen device, although information on this and the exact spec. of the 'Sports suspension' option doesn't seem readily available.

I'll contine lurking on the forum's and will also try a couple of demo's.

SS7

[cannedheat]

shoestring7 said:

Wilburo said:

This sounds very interesting - can you tell us some more about what your aims are?

My car has the 17"s with Sports Suspension+. I agree with you about it limiting speed on b-roads - it can get too bumpy to see / feel what's happening. I believe that this is caused by the wheels as opposed to the suspension, which seems very good - the chassis changes direction very quickly, with very little bodyroll. There's also a hint of oversteer on turn-in, which should help dial out understeer.

With this in mind, I believe that the 16"s with sports suspension would be the best route forward.

Hi,

I suppose I'm trying to replicate the ClubSport spec. as used by Porsche; take some weight out of the car, keep the doo-dah's to a minumum and the costs down. I also want a decent ride, but with good wheel control for 'B' road use. Things like my old Lancia Integrale were exceptional in this respect; modern's are pretty hopeless, one sporty Audi I drove near chucked me into the ditch when it hit a sequence of bumps that foiled the suspension. A pox on Nurburgring development!

Its also very easy to spec. a MINI Cooper S to beyond £20k without really making it anymore satisfactory to own. And talk of poor re-sale is usually nonsense, its the options that represent most depreciation in the value of a car, the vanilla MCS comes with aircon and sports seats as well as all the important oily bits. As an example I recently sold a plainly spec'd Cayman (no leather, no paint, no Satnav..) in three days. As an aside, this is another car very sensitive to wheel choice.

I've not driven the Gen2 MINI's, so my comments about response and feedback relate to the supercharged cars. The other big difference is that the cars now come with runflat tyres, and it seems that the RFT's stiff sidewalls are mainly responsible for the ride deterioration, but the 17" wheels increased unsprung weight will probably also adversely affect ride and steering.

From what I can read the lsd is a worthwhile option at £170, as it improves traction without adding torque steer or turn-in understeer. I guess its a torsen device, although information on this and the exact spec. of the 'Sports suspension' option doesn't seem readily available.

I'll contine lurking on the forum's and will also try a couple of demo's.

SS7

Details of the various wheels on offer here.

I'd be wary of speccing a new MINI too lightly, they're pretty basic as standard so things like the Chilli pack are desireable when buying second hand. When I bought mine, the spec was more important than the colour/mileage...etc. I wanted multi-function sports steering wheel, darkened glass, LSD, Xenons...etc. So kept looking until I found one. The fact that it also had full leather/climate/lighter wheels/auto lights..etc was a bonus.

You don't have to go nuts on the options list but a few well chosen extras will make it more enjoyable to own and easier to get rid of IMO.

[DanGT]

The LSD on minis are very good, they dont pull to much but the drive out of corners is much improved. I have driven with and with out and now would not get a mini with out one.

[shoestring7]

For anyone interested, I took a test drive in a MCS this week. This was a current model Jan 07 car with 15k miles on.

I'm afraid I was disappointed. Great driving position and clearly had a good level of performance, but the drive-by-wire throttle map was very non-linear, giving lots of throttle early on then flattening out. The brakes are over-servoed, ruling out heel&toe use outside of the track. The steering was light and lacked feel, and the position of the instruments was nuts; a giant useless speedo and a tiny digital readout in the tach that disappeared if you used the information system. As I expected on 17" runflats the ride was harsh over broken tarmac, what I didn't expect was a cacophony of squeaks and rattles around the interior.

And in my natural driving position rear leg room was non-existent. Its also expensive, a Clubman 's' in the showroom was stickered at £24.5k

I was hoping for a car that was practical but that had real depths of ability under the bling. But I’m afraid for me the compromises needed to appeal to its natural fashion-led non-enthusiast market ruin any claims it has of being a performance car.

I understand that non-runflats might become a factory option shortly. Its a faint hope, I'll try some of the competition in the meantime, and try to get a longer drive on normal tyres.

SS7

[esuuv]

I dont remeber if its an option or not but the car you drove - did you put it in Sport?

My 08 factory JCW is a completely different animal with it switched on - weights the steering and makes the throttle map much better.

I find the "normal" mode ideal for london traffic and then switch the sport on when you actually want to drive it.......

[shoestring7]

esuuv said:

I dont remeber if its an option or not but the car you drove - did you put it in Sport?

My 08 factory JCW is a completely different animal with it switched on - weights the steering and makes the throttle map much better.

I find the "normal" mode ideal for london traffic and then switch the sport on when you actually want to drive it.......

No, this example didn't have the 'sport' button. Are you saying its more than a throttle map?

SS7

[Wilburo]

I was under the impression you were looking at first gen MINIs.

For what it's worth, I recently had a mk.2 MINI One as a courtesy car and found, as you did, that the steering was glassy and that the brakes bit very quickly, without being progressive.

I don't believe this is the case with the first gen cars - I have a 2004 MCS and find that in comparison, the brakes are easier to modulate, the steering has much more feel and feedback (in the mk.2 MINI One feedback came through the chassis rather than through the wheel), while the tacho's speed display is easier to read and doesn't change to any other graphic. I also prefer the first gen interior with the smaller central speedo and nicer switches.

Judging by your complaints, I would encourage you take another look at the mk.1 Mini Cooper S, pref. '54 plate onwards. You'd probably prefer one *without* the Chilli pack (which means 16" wheels and standard headlights) but with sports suspension.

As far as I remember, the standard headlights are 7 kgs lighter than the xenons in the Chilli Pack, which is why they're used by the Works GP.

Oh, if you want the lightest official alloys, go for the X-lites (lightest of the mk.1 16" wheels at 8kg).

More weight saving tips? Check out the Works GP!

Edited by Wilburo on Friday 17th July 17:13

[shoestring7]

I had an email from someone in MINI's product marketing department.

It says that from the September, run-flats will be an option; "From September production, all MINI wheels will come with non Run-flat tyres as standard, with the option to upgrade to Run-flat tyres".

Interesting change in policy; I'll be looking forward to trying one on proper tyres.

SS7