N12 Prince engine - how bad is it?
Discussion
It's first car time for eldest daughter, and she has her heart set on a MINI. We are looking to spend about £2,000, at which there's healthy choice of outwardly clean and tidy 2007-2009 cars with 80-100k on the clock. For insurance reasons, we are looking at the 1.4 One version which I believe has the N12 variant of the notorious "Prince" engine
This of course brings me to my main concern which is the Prince engine. The internet is filled with horror stories of broken timing chains and coked up valves, but is it a case that for every one of these there are 100 running happily, or are they all ticking timebombs, with major bork a matter of "when, not if".
It will fall to me to look after this thing, and I'm reasonably competent with the spanners, but at the same time while I accept it's an old car that will need bits and pieces sorting out, I also don't want to be under the thing every weekend, constantly shelling out to keep it running, or having it recovered from some far flung place.
I'm happy to do an oil and filter change every 6 months for example, but that's not going to undo any issues that might be lurking by the time we buy the car.
It would be comforting to know that it's not going to cause what little bit of hair I have left to fall out.
Any thoughts gratefully received.
This of course brings me to my main concern which is the Prince engine. The internet is filled with horror stories of broken timing chains and coked up valves, but is it a case that for every one of these there are 100 running happily, or are they all ticking timebombs, with major bork a matter of "when, not if".
It will fall to me to look after this thing, and I'm reasonably competent with the spanners, but at the same time while I accept it's an old car that will need bits and pieces sorting out, I also don't want to be under the thing every weekend, constantly shelling out to keep it running, or having it recovered from some far flung place.
I'm happy to do an oil and filter change every 6 months for example, but that's not going to undo any issues that might be lurking by the time we buy the car.
It would be comforting to know that it's not going to cause what little bit of hair I have left to fall out.
Any thoughts gratefully received.
IIRC the bulk of the issues were with the turbocharged S variant.
My advice would be to get a car that has a perfect history & looks like it has been well cared for, ideally with oil/filter every year as a minimum, not as per the service plan.
Also if you do, you need to religiously check/top up oil, as they can use some & a warning is too late by then.
Having said that, they are fun cars to drive with lots of charm.
My advice would be to get a car that has a perfect history & looks like it has been well cared for, ideally with oil/filter every year as a minimum, not as per the service plan.
Also if you do, you need to religiously check/top up oil, as they can use some & a warning is too late by then.
Having said that, they are fun cars to drive with lots of charm.
The problem is what "best looked after" is.
These engines need more than a dealer stamped service book. The key issue in my experience has been cars which have run low on oil which many will if not topped up between services.
Sadly, this is often neglected resulting in associated problems.
These engines need more than a dealer stamped service book. The key issue in my experience has been cars which have run low on oil which many will if not topped up between services.
Sadly, this is often neglected resulting in associated problems.
Pistom said:
The problem is what "best looked after" is.
These engines need more than a dealer stamped service book. The key issue in my experience has been cars which have run low on oil which many will if not topped up between services.
Sadly, this is often neglected resulting in associated problems.
Indeed. The chances of finding something that's had more frequent servicing than recommended is going to be nigh on impossible.These engines need more than a dealer stamped service book. The key issue in my experience has been cars which have run low on oil which many will if not topped up between services.
Sadly, this is often neglected resulting in associated problems.
An 08 came up locally earlier that looked stunning but had 105,000 miles and "no service history" caught my eye. Given it was local, I was going to look, just to get something to gauge others by if nothing else, but it sold within an hour of being advertised.
Nice little car, good history with it, looked straight and quite "honest" with a few minor scuffs and scratches here and there, but no major damage, and would have actually looked really nice with a machine polish. 2 keys, loads of history, all paperwork presented in a nice folder and together. Guy had owned it for 3 years and clearly looked after it. All the right signs.
Nice spec as well with heated part leather, and the colour entertainment screen in the centre of the speedo. Engine was smooth, responsive and quiet, car drove really nicely and felt tight and together. Steering, brakes, clutch etc all felt lovely. Only thing I could fault was the tailgate needed a good slam to close.
Starting to think we might have lucked in on a peach on the first go, I ran a Car Vertical check, and it came back as a Cat N in 2019 (months before the current seller bought it). Thought for a minute about a super lowball offer, but common sense kicked in, I thanked the seller for his time, and walked away
Keep looking.
Nice spec as well with heated part leather, and the colour entertainment screen in the centre of the speedo. Engine was smooth, responsive and quiet, car drove really nicely and felt tight and together. Steering, brakes, clutch etc all felt lovely. Only thing I could fault was the tailgate needed a good slam to close.
Starting to think we might have lucked in on a peach on the first go, I ran a Car Vertical check, and it came back as a Cat N in 2019 (months before the current seller bought it). Thought for a minute about a super lowball offer, but common sense kicked in, I thanked the seller for his time, and walked away
Keep looking.
Edited by Limpet on Saturday 2nd July 13:15
t. Start it from cold and hold the revs at about 1,800rpm and listen for rattling. I personally would never advise anyone to buy a diseasel unless it is going to be used predominantly for long runs very regularly.
For the first few miles until warm up (which is normally much longer in a modern diesel) it is pouring fuel down its throat (which is why "range" always drops for the first few miles, then rises again) and will never get the full expected mileage.
Also, there is always the dreaded/expensive DPF issues if not used as above.
For the first few miles until warm up (which is normally much longer in a modern diesel) it is pouring fuel down its throat (which is why "range" always drops for the first few miles, then rises again) and will never get the full expected mileage.
Also, there is always the dreaded/expensive DPF issues if not used as above.
OP - try not to get despondent.
Good examples do exist and as you found, obviously knackered ones are quite easy to identify.
My wife's is now on 60K and we've always kept an eye on oil and had no issues other than a fuel pump fail early on which was difficult to identify but really easy to change.
Since then, it's literally only needed oil changes, a battery and a couple of rear discs due to corrosion from standing.
It's a fabulous car to drive - very enjoyable.
Good examples do exist and as you found, obviously knackered ones are quite easy to identify.
My wife's is now on 60K and we've always kept an eye on oil and had no issues other than a fuel pump fail early on which was difficult to identify but really easy to change.
Since then, it's literally only needed oil changes, a battery and a couple of rear discs due to corrosion from standing.
It's a fabulous car to drive - very enjoyable.
Generally speaking, they are terrible.
The engine is prone to bores going oval and ring wear so they drink oil, timing chain stretch and broken guides, oil leaks plus problems with the most ridiculous alternator belt tensioner ever designed. They suffer from lacquer peel and water leaks resulting in various electric gremlins. Avoid sunroof cars at all costs.
For £2000 you're just buying trouble unless you're lucky.
However, buy a late lowish mileage R50 instead and you have a much better chance, the Tritec engine is vastly more robust and they drive just as well as a later one. Avoid the Cat C/D/N scrap and £2000 will get a good 04-6 One or Cooper with under 100k. The R50 diesel uses the Yaris engine that is generally reliable and very good on fuel.
My £2000 would buy a 09 onwards Fiesta 1.2 or 1.4, a much better car that absorbs high mileage well.
The engine is prone to bores going oval and ring wear so they drink oil, timing chain stretch and broken guides, oil leaks plus problems with the most ridiculous alternator belt tensioner ever designed. They suffer from lacquer peel and water leaks resulting in various electric gremlins. Avoid sunroof cars at all costs.
For £2000 you're just buying trouble unless you're lucky.
However, buy a late lowish mileage R50 instead and you have a much better chance, the Tritec engine is vastly more robust and they drive just as well as a later one. Avoid the Cat C/D/N scrap and £2000 will get a good 04-6 One or Cooper with under 100k. The R50 diesel uses the Yaris engine that is generally reliable and very good on fuel.
My £2000 would buy a 09 onwards Fiesta 1.2 or 1.4, a much better car that absorbs high mileage well.
I thought the oil problem started with the low friction design of this engine which meant it was inherently burning oil from new?
That then leads to the rest of the mechanical issues.
I'm not sure they're so bad as to force me into a Fiesta which are in comparison utterly nasty inside in comparison but as the OP is doing - buy with caution.
That then leads to the rest of the mechanical issues.
I'm not sure they're so bad as to force me into a Fiesta which are in comparison utterly nasty inside in comparison but as the OP is doing - buy with caution.
I've looked at a few more, and the only one that didn't have some timing chain noise wasn't cold when I got to it, despite my asking for it to be, and the oil level was also just below minimum on the dipstick. The seller admitted "it used a bit of oil" and the fact he he hadn't bothered to top it up before viewing, and that the full service history turned out to be not exactly full, I walked away from that one as well.
It concerned me that among the noisy ones, there were cars that were, by any standards, very well cared for, and in lovely condition with comprehensive service histories. Two of them in particular were really, really nice examples but both had rattly engines.
Have decided to look for a late R50 instead (05-06 with the Getrag box). As well as the seemingly far less problematic Tritec engine, the other advantage is that it's easier to upgrade the ICE to something more modern and bluetooth / streaming capable, given there's a standard DIN stereo in there. VED is slightly dearer (£220 vs £180) but in the scheme of things, it's not a deal breaker.
It concerned me that among the noisy ones, there were cars that were, by any standards, very well cared for, and in lovely condition with comprehensive service histories. Two of them in particular were really, really nice examples but both had rattly engines.
Have decided to look for a late R50 instead (05-06 with the Getrag box). As well as the seemingly far less problematic Tritec engine, the other advantage is that it's easier to upgrade the ICE to something more modern and bluetooth / streaming capable, given there's a standard DIN stereo in there. VED is slightly dearer (£220 vs £180) but in the scheme of things, it's not a deal breaker.
Old thread and maybe you are done by now, but I got an R52 Mini One (first gen convertible) that my daughter uses. I think it is really good. Now has 108k on it.
With the first gen, the Mini One has the same 1.6 engine as the Cooper, just performance limited in software. I've never seen the torque curves or driven a Cooper version but I understand the performance limit is mainly by not opening the throttle fully, so whilst it runs out of puff at the top end, it has good low down torque. Probably the second gen which is only 1.4 in the Mini One, has less low down torque.
You can remap them from the 90bhp to Cooper spec 115bhp or to 130bhp with a Superchips Bluefin for about £400. Brakes are same as Cooper. Potentially the suspension as well depending on what option was taken.
It makes 43mpg which is pretty good.
Visually, it takes some practice to spot them apart. Condition wise, an 06 won't be much different to an 08, if it has been looked after.
As you've identified, you want one with Getrag gearbox and check for signs of head gasket issues which I believe are common. Noisy power steering motor/pump is another problem.
With the first gen, the Mini One has the same 1.6 engine as the Cooper, just performance limited in software. I've never seen the torque curves or driven a Cooper version but I understand the performance limit is mainly by not opening the throttle fully, so whilst it runs out of puff at the top end, it has good low down torque. Probably the second gen which is only 1.4 in the Mini One, has less low down torque.
You can remap them from the 90bhp to Cooper spec 115bhp or to 130bhp with a Superchips Bluefin for about £400. Brakes are same as Cooper. Potentially the suspension as well depending on what option was taken.
It makes 43mpg which is pretty good.
Visually, it takes some practice to spot them apart. Condition wise, an 06 won't be much different to an 08, if it has been looked after.
As you've identified, you want one with Getrag gearbox and check for signs of head gasket issues which I believe are common. Noisy power steering motor/pump is another problem.
Pistom said:
I thought the oil problem started with the low friction design of this engine which meant it was inherently burning oil from new?
That then leads to the rest of the mechanical issues.
I'm not sure they're so bad as to force me into a Fiesta which are in comparison utterly nasty inside in comparison but as the OP is doing - buy with caution.
The 09 onwards Fiesta is a vastly superior car. They are reliable, drive very well (the ride is much better) and the 1.4 Yamaha derived engine is a gem. I think the 1.6 is a good engine as well. That then leads to the rest of the mechanical issues.
I'm not sure they're so bad as to force me into a Fiesta which are in comparison utterly nasty inside in comparison but as the OP is doing - buy with caution.
Touring442 said:
The 09 onwards Fiesta is a vastly superior car. They are reliable, drive very well (the ride is much better) and the 1.4 Yamaha derived engine is a gem. I think the 1.6 is a good engine as well.
I've had several Fiestas as hire cars but can't remember the specific engines but none felt like they had the low down torque which is what makes the Mini worth persevering with. And I think it depends what you consider makes a car superior. I found the Fiesta ride is great but is an understeering mess compared to the Mini on a country road.
The gear change is more rewarding in the Mini but it's the interior that makes Fiestas so awful.
The Mini is compromised in many areas though by its aim at being retro which the Fiesta doesn’t suffer from so as an everyday older car, the Fiesta probably is the better choice.
amongst other cars, I own both a 2002 Mini Cooper and a 2010 Ford Fiesta 1.25. I have children in their teens / at uni so these are useful cars.
I've owned the mini (1.6 Tritec engine) for 5 years and it has more than 150k on the clock. It's been incredibly reliable and consumables (brake discs and the like) are cheap. It's great fun on a twisty road and also seems very rust resistant.
The Fiesta is a much roomier and more modern feeling but when driven enthusiasticly on a backroad, it's not as good as the Mini round the corners. At 50k miles and around half the age, it's also got more rust than the Mini. I haven't owned it long enough to really judge reliability.
I've owned the mini (1.6 Tritec engine) for 5 years and it has more than 150k on the clock. It's been incredibly reliable and consumables (brake discs and the like) are cheap. It's great fun on a twisty road and also seems very rust resistant.
The Fiesta is a much roomier and more modern feeling but when driven enthusiasticly on a backroad, it's not as good as the Mini round the corners. At 50k miles and around half the age, it's also got more rust than the Mini. I haven't owned it long enough to really judge reliability.
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