Clubman/Clubvan diesel engine timing chain failure

[BIRMA]

A chap over on the Facebook Clubvan owners section has had a timing chain break on his 2014 Clubvan D has anyone heard of this and what may have caused it? 60K miles on it.

[Elliot2000]

Bmw n47 engine in it- not unknown for failed chains

[BIRMA]

Elliot2000 said:

Bmw n47 engine in it- not unknown for failed chains

Can you guide me to any further info about it, I'll do a search as well.

[E-bmw]

Go to the top of the page.

Where you see the bit https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/post.asp?h=0&a... type in google and hit the enter button.

When you click on the top result in the search, where you get an open box in the middle of the page type in "n47cam chain failure" and press enter again.

Read, rinse, repeat.

[BIRMA]

E-bmw said:

Go to the top of the page.

Where you see the bit https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/post.asp?h=0&a... type in google and hit the enter button.

When you click on the top result in the search, where you get an open box in the middle of the page type in "n47cam chain failure" and press enter again.

Read, rinse, repeat.

Thanks I have, and it's a can of worms for sure.
I'm angry at myself for not doing sufficient homework on a vehicle I've spent a few bob on modifying.
Surely BMW should be brought to book for producing an engine with such catastrophic design faults?
Most people are aware of a Pistonheads members thread about having issues with a well known Warranty company, fair enough they are a bunch of sharks but surely the biggest shark in the waters are BMW themselves.

[Elliot2000]

Tbf the early n47 was terrible for it, the later ones like the mini your talking about aren’t too bad, but they can still fail like on almost all European engined cars

[BIRMA]

Elliot2000 said:

Tbf the early n47 was terrible for it, the later ones like the mini your talking about aren’t too bad, but they can still fail like on almost all European engined cars

My Clubvan has only done about 30K miles but I've had it re-mapped etc. Although the first thing I did was change the oil using a Mobil synthetic I always change it at 10K miles or a year anyhow so hopefully may be lucky. I think I might just get the guy who does my car work to check the condition of the plastic bit if that doesn't involve too much. Better to be safe than sorry I guess, from here on in I'm going to be listening to the engine on start up.

I nearly bought a factory special order M3 a few months ago and have since discovered there is a possible bottom end issue with those so despite wanting one of the last N/A V8's I'm glad in some ways I bought a Japanese N/A V8 car instead.

[stevemcs]

We put a chain on a 2011 520d a few weeks ago, it went without warning. To help minimise the risk, regular oil changes, always make sure the level is correct and don't leave it in gear.

[BIRMA]

stevemcs said:

We put a chain on a 2011 520d a few weeks ago, it went without warning. To help minimise the risk, regular oil changes, always make sure the level is correct and don't leave it in gear.

The chap on Facebook said exactly the same about his Clubvan it rattled then stopped.

I can not believe a company like BMW can allow this sort of thing to happen and not put their hands in their pockets to compensate people who will probably have to go through a fair bit of hardship to sort out what must be a manufacturers fault.

[E-bmw]

Just to put that into perspective, it is a 5 year old car at least 2 years out of warranty, likely with an unconfirmed history of non standard parts used in servicing, why would they?

[BIRMA]

E-bmw said:

Just to put that into perspective, it is a 5 year old car at least 2 years out of warranty, likely with an unconfirmed history of non standard parts used in servicing, why would they?

But according to a number of examples I've seen the plastic guide seems to discolour and deteriorate which I have concluded must be the failure.
For any vehicle to fail after five years and 60K miles is disgraceful, I have bought and run Renault Traffc vans for over 10 years each and over 180K miles with no sign of failure.
It would appear BMW vehicles in particular M3 and M5's are subject to more major failures than I think is acceptable. Mercedes too seem to have many issues they seem to ignore.

The chap with the Clubvan has just got back to me to confirm the van has a full service history.

Edited by BIRMA on Friday 26th April 08:31

[Elliot2000]

A bit of internet searching and now you can confirm the exact cause of failure of the engine and the problems of lots of different engines too- someone get that man in charge of brexit - he will have it all sorted by lunch time

Seriously though -u don’t know the cause of that engine failure , I’m guessing you haven’t Even seen the engine in question. It can be a number of reasons - normally the chains wear and elongate which is why u normally see it at higher mileage, this is possibly not the cause of that engine due to the mileage but if it’s been remapped ( outside of the tolerances that the manufacturer agreed was acceptable for the life cycle of the components) then it probably has had a harder life than some.
Quality of oil and parts used over its life also has an influence,

And out of curiosity- has it had a clutch or flywheel or vibration damper replaced? I’ve seen more than a few that have had chains fail after a short while of these parts being replaced, which I have guessed maybe down to some over exuberance with the impact gun on the crankshaft .

Discoloured chain guides is not an indication of weakness

Btw - m3 and m5 issues - I assume u are talking about big end bearing issues- they were built to very tight tolerance with a thicker engine oil, when the oil is warm enough it can adequately lubricate the bearings. People not allowing the car too warm up before hammering it is not really a design fault

[BIRMA]

Elliot2000 said:

A bit of internet searching and now you can confirm the exact cause of failure of the engine and the problems of lots of different engines too- someone get that man in charge of brexit - he will have it all sorted by lunch time

Seriously though -u don’t know the cause of that engine failure , I’m guessing you haven’t Even seen the engine in question. It can be a number of reasons - normally the chains wear and elongate which is why u normally see it at higher mileage, this is possibly not the cause of that engine due to the mileage but if it’s been remapped ( outside of the tolerances that the manufacturer agreed was acceptable for the life cycle of the components) then it probably has had a harder life than some.
Quality of oil and parts used over its life also has an influence,

And out of curiosity- has it had a clutch or flywheel or vibration damper replaced? I’ve seen more than a few that have had chains fail after a short while of these parts being replaced, which I have guessed maybe down to some over exuberance with the impact gun on the crankshaft .

Discoloured chain guides is not an indication of weakness

Btw - m3 and m5 issues - I assume u are talking about big end bearing issues- they were built to very tight tolerance with a thicker engine oil, when the oil is warm enough it can adequately lubricate the bearings. People not allowing the car too warm up before hammering it is not really a design fault

It's not my van that has failed although mine has been re-mapped and a few modifications carried out. From what I understand the Clubvan in question has been serviced correctly although I'm just trying to at least help the owner by trying to find out what could have happened, like him I didn't realise this was an issue.

With regards to the issues that crop up in cars I find it amazing that large manufacturers just seem to shrug off design failures in their products. I actually produce a product and if it fails I address it and put my hands in my pocket and sort it out.

My last car an AMG CL65 had inherent problems with the coil packs being a V12 there were two, at some point Mercedes re-designed them
so the replacements were more hardy and able to withstand the heat that caused the originals to fail, but at no point did they offer replacements at a discounted cost and left it to the owners to foot the bill.

It just seems to me that Porsche with the bore scoring, BMW with Vanos etc and MB with the M156 engine headbolts are companies making enough profit to give a goodwill gesture to effected customers.
Believe it or not I've had a Porsche didn't have any issues, I had one of the very first M5's that hit the uk shores and had no issues, and have had two AMG's both with no issues so it's not like there are so many issues it would bankrupt them sorting these matters out with a bit of goodwill towards their customers.

[Elliot2000]

They generally offer a lot of goodwill if the car has been kept fully serviced, And sometimes if it hadn’t. You need to ask

I know it’s not your clubvan, and my point was that without even looking at it you confidently identified the cause of the failure just by doing a bit of googling

With your own products do you give a lifetime cover regardless of how it’s been used and regardless of if the customer has fundamentally changed the way it works (remapping)?

[BIRMA]

Elliot2000 said:

They generally offer a lot of goodwill if the car has been kept fully serviced, And sometimes if it hadn’t. You need to ask

I know it’s not your clubvan, and my point was that without even looking at it you confidently identified the cause of the failure just by doing a bit of googling

With your own products do you give a lifetime cover regardless of how it’s been used and regardless of if the customer has fundamentally changed the way it works (remapping)?

I can't think of another reason for failure but if you know more do help by providing some more information.

I don't offer a lifetime guarantee on my products but if by any chance a failure due to standard wear and tear were to occur I'd sort it, particularly if it were to occur in less than half its lifespan/expectancy.

Most cases of issues with cars I'd hazard a guess are more than likely standard non modified as is the case with the Minivan in question as far as I know. With me re-mapping and modifying my car I do so with people who have an understanding of how far I'm pushing it and I certainly wouldn't expect BMW to foot a bill on a car I have knowingly altered.

[Elliot2000]

My mistake- I thought the mini in question was also remapped.

Cause of failure could be a whole list of things - elongated chain, weak tensioner, blocked chain lubricating spray nozzle, low oil, poor quality oil, or as mentioned - a problem with the guides, or a manufacturing defect in any of the above items or sprockets

[BIRMA]

Elliot2000 said:

My mistake- I thought the mini in question was also remapped.

Cause of failure could be a whole list of things - elongated chain, weak tensioner, blocked chain lubricating spray nozzle, low oil, poor quality oil, or as mentioned - a problem with the guides, or a manufacturing defect in any of the above items or sprockets

Indeed but from his description of the event is that he started the car up, it rattled and stopped.

Although I do not like the idea I think the USA with their class action against such things is a good idea and we in the UK should adopt a similar approach were justified of course.

[stevemcs]

Oil and lack of maintenance would be the biggest contribution, people think any form of oil is ok, the fact is it needs to be good quality and changed every year or 10k whichever comes first. People just run cars nowadays and try to penny pinch.

If it rattled at start up i'd go with low oil level, we have had a spate of cars being low on oil and we usually add near on 3 litres to get them back to the top.

[BIRMA]

stevemcs said:

Oil and lack of maintenance would be the biggest contribution, people think any form of oil is ok, the fact is it needs to be good quality and changed every year or 10k whichever comes first. People just run cars nowadays and try to penny pinch.

If it rattled at start up i'd go with low oil level, we have had a spate of cars being low on oil and we usually add near on 3 litres to get them back to the top.

I agree and I'm a fanatic with choice of oil and changing regularly, checking levels etc. Having run several vans over many years all with in excess of 180K miles by the time I throw them away.

I don't know the full facts behind this chaps car but he did say it was serviced correctly.
All I have been trying to do is to enlighten both of us as to what Mini's seem to throw up during ownership.

[Elliot2000]

BIRMA said:

Indeed but from his description of the event is that he started the car up, it rattled and stopped.
.

Not sure I understand the point your trying to make with this bit - are you trying to imply it’s more likely the guide because that is how it went wrong?