New Turbo R owner. And some initial questions ...
Discussion
Hello everyone,
So I took the plunge and bought a Turbo R! It's a club I've wanted to join for a while as I've been looking at these cars on and off for a year or so. She has 89.5 on the clock and seems solid on top and bottom, free of corrosion and cosmetically in good nick. The chap I bought her from put about 5k on her in the last 5 months which I thought seemed a good starting point for building up a car I can both use and keep.
Details? It's a 1995 SWB in Royal Blue with Magnolia (?) interior. Chassis 55759, which if the info I've found on other sites is true, is the last of the Series III (at least Turbo Rs) cars. Features of note? It has wood inlays to the doors which I haven't seen on too many other cars; I'll post some pics soon. All in all very happy.
I also bought her knowing she had some repairs necessary to bring her up to scratch. In no particular order:
- Hydraulic Service
- A service (we did the 24,000)
- New Tyres all around
- Brakes (discs and pads)
- various bushings, mounts, hoses, Air Con issues, seat ECU ... the list goes on and on!
- Cosmetically underbody cleaning and painting, keep that rust away!
- Fix the 'blown out' rear 1/4 bumper
- And as a little modification I thought she couldn't do without, added a Flying B
Now that all those things are done, I took delivery of her yesterday (after a 100 mile trip from Bournemouth to London) and headed for the Chilterns to take advantage of our lovely weather. Beautiful drive, and all was going smoothly when ...
THE PROBLEM BEGAN: she STALLED at about 25 mph on a back country road !!
Managed to pull over to a side road - but total power cut off (and that steering is heavy!!) with CHECK GEARBOX, CHECK ABS warning etc (all the lights I guess when you have a stall) coming on. I did the following:
- Turned the engine back on: it started fine
- Revved to 3000,3500, all fine.
Found a pub for lunch, drove back to Central London no problems. Drove it again tonight, no issues.
However, and I noticed this yesterday too but didn't think much of it: an OVERWHELMING FUEL SMELL on idle, low speed driving, sitting in traffic - so much so my wife and I could hardly breathe!! Permeating throughout the car.
So my questions, if you wouldn't mind weighing in are:
- 1) WHAT CAUSED THE STALL?
- 2) FUEL SMELL - OVERWHELMING FUEL SMELL, on Idle, low speed etc. - Have any of you experienced this? Fuel filters etc. should have been changed.
- 3) SPUTTERY START - tonight when I started the car it struggled (say 4-5 seconds) to start and then it sort of 'coughed' into life. Is this related?
- 4) IDLE - I noticed after idling for a few minutes the car starts to 'shake', noticeably, like its rocking. Again, related?
Calling the mechanic tomorrow
So I took the plunge and bought a Turbo R! It's a club I've wanted to join for a while as I've been looking at these cars on and off for a year or so. She has 89.5 on the clock and seems solid on top and bottom, free of corrosion and cosmetically in good nick. The chap I bought her from put about 5k on her in the last 5 months which I thought seemed a good starting point for building up a car I can both use and keep.
Details? It's a 1995 SWB in Royal Blue with Magnolia (?) interior. Chassis 55759, which if the info I've found on other sites is true, is the last of the Series III (at least Turbo Rs) cars. Features of note? It has wood inlays to the doors which I haven't seen on too many other cars; I'll post some pics soon. All in all very happy.
I also bought her knowing she had some repairs necessary to bring her up to scratch. In no particular order:
- Hydraulic Service
- A service (we did the 24,000)
- New Tyres all around
- Brakes (discs and pads)
- various bushings, mounts, hoses, Air Con issues, seat ECU ... the list goes on and on!
- Cosmetically underbody cleaning and painting, keep that rust away!
- Fix the 'blown out' rear 1/4 bumper
- And as a little modification I thought she couldn't do without, added a Flying B
Now that all those things are done, I took delivery of her yesterday (after a 100 mile trip from Bournemouth to London) and headed for the Chilterns to take advantage of our lovely weather. Beautiful drive, and all was going smoothly when ...
THE PROBLEM BEGAN: she STALLED at about 25 mph on a back country road !!
Managed to pull over to a side road - but total power cut off (and that steering is heavy!!) with CHECK GEARBOX, CHECK ABS warning etc (all the lights I guess when you have a stall) coming on. I did the following:
- Turned the engine back on: it started fine
- Revved to 3000,3500, all fine.
Found a pub for lunch, drove back to Central London no problems. Drove it again tonight, no issues.
However, and I noticed this yesterday too but didn't think much of it: an OVERWHELMING FUEL SMELL on idle, low speed driving, sitting in traffic - so much so my wife and I could hardly breathe!! Permeating throughout the car.
So my questions, if you wouldn't mind weighing in are:
- 1) WHAT CAUSED THE STALL?
- 2) FUEL SMELL - OVERWHELMING FUEL SMELL, on Idle, low speed etc. - Have any of you experienced this? Fuel filters etc. should have been changed.
- 3) SPUTTERY START - tonight when I started the car it struggled (say 4-5 seconds) to start and then it sort of 'coughed' into life. Is this related?
- 4) IDLE - I noticed after idling for a few minutes the car starts to 'shake', noticeably, like its rocking. Again, related?
Calling the mechanic tomorrow
Edited by jeckman on Tuesday 4th March 18:58
Thanks for the reply.
Spoke with the mechanic this am: since the smell seems to be strongest from the boot/rear passenger area (vs. under the bonnet) his guess is the breather hoses attached to top of the fuel tank are damaged/disintegrated. Perhaps this accounts for the stronger smell after topping up the tank ...
Will know more Saturday as he's coming up with a diagnostic tool.
Re: The stalling/engine cut out experienced two days ago, does anyone have any ideas? I'm afraid it might be Engine ECU related ... but maybe something electrical around the fuel supply system instead?? Something that's making the fuel pump cut out I'm thinking.
Spoke with the mechanic this am: since the smell seems to be strongest from the boot/rear passenger area (vs. under the bonnet) his guess is the breather hoses attached to top of the fuel tank are damaged/disintegrated. Perhaps this accounts for the stronger smell after topping up the tank ...
Will know more Saturday as he's coming up with a diagnostic tool.
Re: The stalling/engine cut out experienced two days ago, does anyone have any ideas? I'm afraid it might be Engine ECU related ... but maybe something electrical around the fuel supply system instead?? Something that's making the fuel pump cut out I'm thinking.
The cutting out could very easily be fuel pump - just from the description you have given. The pump is integral to the fuel injection system and pressurises the system (when you turn on the ignition you can hear the pump pressurise the system for a few seconds). If the pump stops for any reason the engine will stop pretty much instantly.
Fuel pumps can suffer from intermittent faults. They can cut out. And then be fine again.
So my money is on the fuel pump, from the details given.
Fuel pumps can suffer from intermittent faults. They can cut out. And then be fine again.
So my money is on the fuel pump, from the details given.
Matt and Graeme - thank you both very much for the input. It's much appreciated and helpful for me to guide my conversation with my mechanic before he checks it out.
Not that it's necessarily good news, but I'm glad to hear that the symptoms 'sound' mechanical vs. electrical. I had feared it might be Motronic ECU related given what I've read in a few other posts by other Turbo R owners.
I'll update once I know more on Saturday.
I agree these are wonderful cars ... I'm hoping there isn't too much more to sort in the near term!
Not that it's necessarily good news, but I'm glad to hear that the symptoms 'sound' mechanical vs. electrical. I had feared it might be Motronic ECU related given what I've read in a few other posts by other Turbo R owners.
I'll update once I know more on Saturday.
I agree these are wonderful cars ... I'm hoping there isn't too much more to sort in the near term!
I have had this random stalling problem with my car twice over the years. The first time it was the throttle plate that was gummed up and needed cleaning, the second time it was the fuel pump cut off (in the event of an accident upside down in a ditch) switch. The switch body had cracked and so the ball bearing in a cup contact inside was shot. Both were a very easy and inexpensive fix, the latter I was able to do myself with no more bother than changing a bulb.
Neither gave me a petrol smell though, so you may not be as lucky
Neither gave me a petrol smell though, so you may not be as lucky
2woody said:
the fuel system is actually quite simple - I'm suspecting a split hose.
it's no more than tank-pump-hoses-pressure regulator and injectors on these later cars.
2woody and Balmoral - thanks for the input - I'll add the gummy throttle plate & roll over switch to the list of things to double check on Saturday.it's no more than tank-pump-hoses-pressure regulator and injectors on these later cars.
Assuming a few of the parts in the fuel system are shot (pump and/or hoses) do have you an idea of many hours it would take to sort? I'm just curious if it's a big job or not.
Re :the split hose: do you think it could account for the fuel smell that is extra strong in the Boot and Rear Passenger area? I haven't noticed any leaks on the garage floor but maybe it's spraying to some degree up under the car?
jeckman said:
Re :the split hose: do you think it could account for the fuel smell that is extra strong in the Boot and Rear Passenger area? I haven't noticed any leaks on the garage floor but maybe it's spraying to some degree up under the car?
Could be, as that is where the tank is located - thing about petrol, you don't need to see an actual pool of it on the floor, you can get a strong smell of it from just a small leak which isn't even enough to drip onto the ground.Fuel pump issues are not uncommon with the Turbo R. They can fail, or become noisy and is quite a common thing to have to replace. This would explain the stalling but the fuel smell does sound like a fuel pipe leak. I am sure that this could be sorted relatively easily with a good mechanic and some money but we all have to invest something to get these now aging cars up to snuff.
This thread has got me thinking. I've noticed a slight fuel smell on occasions in the boot area. I always turn the battery master switch off and a couple of times I've noticed a slight smell when opening the boot to switch it back on. I'm fairly certain it has been when the tank has been fairly full.
I've got my mechanic mate coming over for a curry tomorrow night and bringing my new drivers side carpet. He's intending to take the seat control units away to have new batteries fitted as a sensible precaution.
I've got my mechanic mate coming over for a curry tomorrow night and bringing my new drivers side carpet. He's intending to take the seat control units away to have new batteries fitted as a sensible precaution.
SilverWraith said:
Fuel pump issues are not uncommon with the Turbo R. They can fail, or become noisy and is quite a common thing to have to replace. This would explain the stalling but the fuel smell does sound like a fuel pipe leak. I am sure that this could be sorted relatively easily with a good mechanic and some money but we all have to invest something to get these now aging cars up to snuff.
Thanks for your thoughts - I plan to get all areas of the fuel system inspected tomorrow/next week. I bought this car with the intention of bringing it up to standard and then using and enjoying it, so would prefer to head off any future stalls by investigating all the possibilities everyone has kindly mentioned. So far I've addressed(I think) a good chunk of the things these cars need at this age.Since it sounds like Graeme might also have something similar with his car (occasionally smelling fuel in the boot) I'll update once we find the remedy
Ok had a good chat with my mechanic friend Graham this evening. Apparently it is quite common for the cork gaskets to fail around the sender unit or shrink with age. The fuel tank sits right behind the rear seats so quite obvious as to why the fuel smell can get into the car. If you drop the carpeted panel in the boot you will see the plywood panel in front of the tank. I'm going to try and tackle this over the weekend. Looking at the plywood it does show signs that something has leaked on it.
Sounds very similar to the continental R - it's very straightforward. In the boot there is a carpeted faux firewall which you can unscrew from the hinges at the base and remove completely, which I think you will need to do to allow removal of the plywood panel. There are also some ancillaries screwed to the back of the faux firewall to do with the car phone and stereo, which need to be unscrewed if you are to remove the firewall. Then you can unscrew the plywood panel and access the tank and sender unit.
If you remove the sender, just make sure the fuel level is lower than the unit!
Dont know if this diagram helps - I couldn't work out how to get it larger. It's from the Bentley parts catalogue for the Turbo R 1990.
If you remove the sender, just make sure the fuel level is lower than the unit!
Dont know if this diagram helps - I couldn't work out how to get it larger. It's from the Bentley parts catalogue for the Turbo R 1990.
Edited by matt5791 on Saturday 8th March 07:56
Edited by matt5791 on Saturday 8th March 08:07
Edited by matt5791 on Saturday 8th March 08:09
graemel said:
Ok had a good chat with my mechanic friend Graham this evening. Apparently it is quite common for the cork gaskets to fail around the sender unit or shrink with age. The fuel tank sits right behind the rear seats so quite obvious as to why the fuel smell can get into the car. If you drop the carpeted panel in the boot you will see the plywood panel in front of the tank. I'm going to try and tackle this over the weekend. Looking at the plywood it does show signs that something has leaked on it.
Ah, now that is true and I believe it is a shrinkage for age but also, doesn't the ethanol in fuel now cause this type of gasket to deteriorate faster? It is something to remember with ethanol in fuel.SilverWraith said:
Ah, now that is true and I believe it is a shrinkage for age but also, doesn't the ethanol in fuel now cause this type of gasket to deteriorate faster? It is something to remember with ethanol in fuel.
This is now becoming a major problem. You need fluorosilicon sealer or sheet. Be prepared to be shocked at the price. A sheet of 3/16" 300mm X 900mm is approx. £190 +vat!! This is about the only material that will resist modern fuels. I have done a lot of research on this with manufacturers of sealants and they all say the same thing that the fluorosilicon is the only answer. I did try Araldite on a tank - it lasts for about 2/3 months. Loctite 5922 is quite good, but fails eventually.Hi everyone - I wanted to give the problems some closure especially after all your helpful comments. I feel bad it's taken so long ... it's taken near on a month to get everything fixed. Long story short the cause of the two problem was traced to the following:
- Fuel smell: regulator hose split in centre of engine
- Stalling: nothing specific, but we renewed the Engine Management relay, put in a new Ignition coupling and checked all the other possible areas (fuel pumps - both fine; throttle plate - clean etc.)
In the course of these investigations more problems helpfully revealed themselves (thank you Steering Rack, now replaced) including the fact that the air intake pipe on the bottom of the engine was incorrectly fitted and the bottom of the seals had collapsed. A day's worth of labour and now replaced and corrected; this seems to have sorted out the lumpy/rough idle.
I don't know if any of your saw Chris Harris' post on his 512TR today ... I can definitely sympathise with him about how keeping these 20 yr+ cars alive and in good health is a labour of love - since I bought her in Feb it's had £11,000 put in! Not at all financially sound blah blah but my Turbo R is finally back tomorrow at lunch and I'm feeling good that she's both sorted and in the matter she deserves.
- Fuel smell: regulator hose split in centre of engine
- Stalling: nothing specific, but we renewed the Engine Management relay, put in a new Ignition coupling and checked all the other possible areas (fuel pumps - both fine; throttle plate - clean etc.)
In the course of these investigations more problems helpfully revealed themselves (thank you Steering Rack, now replaced) including the fact that the air intake pipe on the bottom of the engine was incorrectly fitted and the bottom of the seals had collapsed. A day's worth of labour and now replaced and corrected; this seems to have sorted out the lumpy/rough idle.
I don't know if any of your saw Chris Harris' post on his 512TR today ... I can definitely sympathise with him about how keeping these 20 yr+ cars alive and in good health is a labour of love - since I bought her in Feb it's had £11,000 put in! Not at all financially sound blah blah but my Turbo R is finally back tomorrow at lunch and I'm feeling good that she's both sorted and in the matter she deserves.
I'm pleased to read this Jon. In relative terms they are cheap to buy but not to necessarily maintain. I still need to sort out the slight smell of fuel in the boot along with the renewal of the batteries in the seat control units. Tyres. That is my next conundrum. Then keep a close eye on the corrosion. I was hoping that being kept in a warm garage will keep the status quo but I'm not so sure. Good luck and enjoy. They are monumental icons of a bygone era.
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