Discussion
Hey guys Im going to be changing my Fiesta ST in the next 6 months and have been looking to wittle down my shortlist. I put a thread up recently that died a death and was no real help about potential cars.
What I want to know is some more in depth detail about the 197 from people that have owned and driven it. Id only really be interested in the F1 as the special edition appeals plus it has all the suspension tweaks to make it a riot. The 197 seems the logical step up from my ST as its N/A 2.0, good chassis and has to be worked hard for performance.
A few things I want to know is obviously how are the screwed together? Any normal French rattles and sqeaks or are they past that now?
Are they actually pretty slow for the group they are in? Book says 0-62 in 6.9. Its not exactly a record setter but id be happy with that but on a recent Evo group test the 197 got slammed for appearing to have less under the bonnet than claimed. It was significantly slower that the Corsa VXR and the old shap Ibizia Cupra on test. As a result it really put the reviewers of the car such was the disparity. Im not a traffic light GP merchant so drag racing isnt going to be me but I just wondered how true all this was and how if effects the performance of the car. As I going to buy it and in a ew months wish I had picked up something with a little more oomph?
Exactly how lumpy is the early engine idle when cold?
The gearing is also something that gets flack. How short is the top gear and is it going to drive me nuts on a long drive?
How cheap and effective are the basic tuning options. Simple things like a remap and induction kit are hugely effective on the ST. How is it with the 197 and is it worth it?
Thanks for reading and hope someone out there can point me in the right direction.
What I want to know is some more in depth detail about the 197 from people that have owned and driven it. Id only really be interested in the F1 as the special edition appeals plus it has all the suspension tweaks to make it a riot. The 197 seems the logical step up from my ST as its N/A 2.0, good chassis and has to be worked hard for performance.
A few things I want to know is obviously how are the screwed together? Any normal French rattles and sqeaks or are they past that now?
Are they actually pretty slow for the group they are in? Book says 0-62 in 6.9. Its not exactly a record setter but id be happy with that but on a recent Evo group test the 197 got slammed for appearing to have less under the bonnet than claimed. It was significantly slower that the Corsa VXR and the old shap Ibizia Cupra on test. As a result it really put the reviewers of the car such was the disparity. Im not a traffic light GP merchant so drag racing isnt going to be me but I just wondered how true all this was and how if effects the performance of the car. As I going to buy it and in a ew months wish I had picked up something with a little more oomph?
Exactly how lumpy is the early engine idle when cold?
The gearing is also something that gets flack. How short is the top gear and is it going to drive me nuts on a long drive?
How cheap and effective are the basic tuning options. Simple things like a remap and induction kit are hugely effective on the ST. How is it with the 197 and is it worth it?
Thanks for reading and hope someone out there can point me in the right direction.
I'll try and answer a few questions for you as best I can:
"how are the screwed together? Any normal French rattles and sqeaks or are they past that now?"
Tbh I have been pleasantly surprised with the build quality on mine, I have one intermittent squeak which comes and goes, it's not loud enough to annoy and I don't even really notice it. Every where else everything is as tight as a drum. The door handle look button failed so I had that replaced (keyless entry). Other than that, no issues to report on the build quality front.
"Book says 0-62 in 6.9. Its not exactly a record setter but id be happy with that"
No, it's not a straight line hero, thats not to say its slow by any means but if dragging is what you want forget it. Where it more (and I cant stress this enough) where it more than makes up for any percieved loss of straight line power is how it puts that power down on twisty roads, it simply devours them. A VXR might be faster in a straight line but I seriously doubt it would be remotley close when the road got challenging. The damping is spot on (non cup chassis in mine) and the grip is astonishing.
"Exactly how lumpy is the early engine idle when cold?"
Never experienced this at all. Not sure if this is a known thing? Certainly never occured on mine.
"The gearing is also something that gets flack. How short is the top gear and is it going to drive me nuts on a long drive?"
The F1 should have the revised gearing which makes m/way drives much better. In mine (on a test track) 80mph registers 4K rpm. It does not bother me at all tbh, I simply turn the volume up a notch if I notice it.
"How cheap and effective are the basic tuning options. Simple things like a remap and induction kit are hugely effective on the ST. How is it with the 197 and is it worth it?"
Sorry, cant help you here. I think its great as is and have never felt the need to 'tune' it all.
Hopefully that was some help
"how are the screwed together? Any normal French rattles and sqeaks or are they past that now?"
Tbh I have been pleasantly surprised with the build quality on mine, I have one intermittent squeak which comes and goes, it's not loud enough to annoy and I don't even really notice it. Every where else everything is as tight as a drum. The door handle look button failed so I had that replaced (keyless entry). Other than that, no issues to report on the build quality front.
"Book says 0-62 in 6.9. Its not exactly a record setter but id be happy with that"
No, it's not a straight line hero, thats not to say its slow by any means but if dragging is what you want forget it. Where it more (and I cant stress this enough) where it more than makes up for any percieved loss of straight line power is how it puts that power down on twisty roads, it simply devours them. A VXR might be faster in a straight line but I seriously doubt it would be remotley close when the road got challenging. The damping is spot on (non cup chassis in mine) and the grip is astonishing.
"Exactly how lumpy is the early engine idle when cold?"
Never experienced this at all. Not sure if this is a known thing? Certainly never occured on mine.
"The gearing is also something that gets flack. How short is the top gear and is it going to drive me nuts on a long drive?"
The F1 should have the revised gearing which makes m/way drives much better. In mine (on a test track) 80mph registers 4K rpm. It does not bother me at all tbh, I simply turn the volume up a notch if I notice it.
"How cheap and effective are the basic tuning options. Simple things like a remap and induction kit are hugely effective on the ST. How is it with the 197 and is it worth it?"
Sorry, cant help you here. I think its great as is and have never felt the need to 'tune' it all.
Hopefully that was some help
Thanks for the decent feedback mate. Really appreciate it. I have an Fiesta ST so im not a drag hero as you put it. Was bought to be quick but quicker in the bends. Its why the r27 is so appealing to me. My wife is getting a Focus ST and my manly pride doesnt want me to have something that will mean she makes me look like a sloth lol. Hope you understand ha!
Edited by oj121 on Sunday 24th April 16:47
oj121 said:
Im hoping someone will come along and point out why the 200 is regarded as so much better than the r27.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=clio+197+vs+200I've recently gone from a fiesta to a 197, not an r27 just a 197.
the gearing is not as bad as people make out but you can trundle around at 30 in 6th gear easily and motorway speeds are at 3750 but the r27 had the revised box mine just missed out on so yours should sit 3250 (if I remember from someone else)
petrol consumption isn't to bad. On my commute I can average 28-33mpg and motorway can do 30+ but if you thrash it around everywhere expect low 20's.
squeaks and rattles so far are no worse then in my fiesta. I've had 1 develop on the ball in between the vents in the center console but barring that it feels a solid car.
speed isn't bad it picks it up quite quickly but you need to be in the right gear. example don't try and go from 10-40 quickly in 4th. Do it in 2nd you'll get there quick enough. I feel when the speed kicks in at 2krpm and it's very pleasurable. Occasionally I do feel dissapointed that it doesn't have the torque feel that my old fiesta did (but that had an engine transplant) a remap should sort that and give better distrubution lower down and a good gain overall.
kangarooing!
no lumpy idle but get used to feeling like a newb driver when you first get it. it does kangaroo from cold when you first pull away. Once you learn the car you can deal with it. I've not suffered it for a while now but it was terrible to begin with until a minute or two later when the car was warming up.
recaro bolster wear is an issue. I went for standard seats in mine as the recaros are notorious for bolster wear.
Tuning wise.
Best thing is a panel filter and remap from what I've gathered. Although a supercharger is supposdly being worked on.
Someone is running 260bhp in their 197 but they javelin dropped some serious K's on their car.
Overall I love it. I've never smiled so much driving a car. it's a real joy and I wouldn't change it.
oh and the 200 is so great in comparrision as almost every niggle (gearing, low down grunt etc) was sorted but as your going r27 a remap should see you good.
I'll add that the suspension on the 200 is harder in the cup than that of the 197 with cup.
the r27 comes with cup as standard and changing to coilovers can prove more difficult on a cup packed car.
also the stereo with the 6 disc changer is harder to switch over then the standard one as the 6 disc changer has a lot of the stereo under the passenger seat and check for a tunepoint (little box in glovebox to plug in you mp3 player or memory stick) that's a bonus.
don't expect all the speakers to be wired in either as some have said they have wiring for rear speakers and tweeters but no actual soeakers there (I got lucky and mine had them all and they were wired in)
also bulbs differ from car to car (interior/sidelights/lucence plate bulbs) some are festoon and some 501. so advise you to check what ones you have before you replace any.
I may have missed some bits but thats my experience with my 197.
the gearing is not as bad as people make out but you can trundle around at 30 in 6th gear easily and motorway speeds are at 3750 but the r27 had the revised box mine just missed out on so yours should sit 3250 (if I remember from someone else)
petrol consumption isn't to bad. On my commute I can average 28-33mpg and motorway can do 30+ but if you thrash it around everywhere expect low 20's.
squeaks and rattles so far are no worse then in my fiesta. I've had 1 develop on the ball in between the vents in the center console but barring that it feels a solid car.
speed isn't bad it picks it up quite quickly but you need to be in the right gear. example don't try and go from 10-40 quickly in 4th. Do it in 2nd you'll get there quick enough. I feel when the speed kicks in at 2krpm and it's very pleasurable. Occasionally I do feel dissapointed that it doesn't have the torque feel that my old fiesta did (but that had an engine transplant) a remap should sort that and give better distrubution lower down and a good gain overall.
kangarooing!
no lumpy idle but get used to feeling like a newb driver when you first get it. it does kangaroo from cold when you first pull away. Once you learn the car you can deal with it. I've not suffered it for a while now but it was terrible to begin with until a minute or two later when the car was warming up.
recaro bolster wear is an issue. I went for standard seats in mine as the recaros are notorious for bolster wear.
Tuning wise.
Best thing is a panel filter and remap from what I've gathered. Although a supercharger is supposdly being worked on.
Someone is running 260bhp in their 197 but they javelin dropped some serious K's on their car.
Overall I love it. I've never smiled so much driving a car. it's a real joy and I wouldn't change it.
oh and the 200 is so great in comparrision as almost every niggle (gearing, low down grunt etc) was sorted but as your going r27 a remap should see you good.
I'll add that the suspension on the 200 is harder in the cup than that of the 197 with cup.
the r27 comes with cup as standard and changing to coilovers can prove more difficult on a cup packed car.
also the stereo with the 6 disc changer is harder to switch over then the standard one as the 6 disc changer has a lot of the stereo under the passenger seat and check for a tunepoint (little box in glovebox to plug in you mp3 player or memory stick) that's a bonus.
don't expect all the speakers to be wired in either as some have said they have wiring for rear speakers and tweeters but no actual soeakers there (I got lucky and mine had them all and they were wired in)
also bulbs differ from car to car (interior/sidelights/lucence plate bulbs) some are festoon and some 501. so advise you to check what ones you have before you replace any.
I may have missed some bits but thats my experience with my 197.
oj121 said:
Im hoping someone will come along and point out why the 200 is regarded as so much better than the r27. I cant see what can be improved that much to go from a good hot hatch to the greatest.
It's just an evolution, the 197 is great but with the 200 they set out to sort some of the gripes people had. They also made the optional cup chassis stiffer but the standard chassis softer to make a larger difference between the two (personally wouldnt be without the cup option).I would guess they won't drive much different and while not any faster in a straight line than the older 182/172 the mk3s are much more composed, I've found that in a track scenario you tend to be constantly catching people in the corners and you'd be hard pressed to out brake a 197/200.
You'll be happy with either, but I think you'll live easier with a 200 day to day with the extra low down torque. Though honestly you'd be best getting one with 10k+ miles on it otherwise the engine will still feel a bit tight.
Also I wouldn't even try to compare it to the ST, I doubt they are even close to being in the same league baring in mind all the group tests the Clio has won and the famous autocar video of it battling a focus RS around brunters.
I've not driven the standard ST but I have been a passenger in one and compared to the 197 it doesn't feel as stable.
Its hard to make comparisons as they are pretty different beasts.
You need to drive them both to make your decision as different people will like different cars but the 197 stopped me from being a dedicated ford nut (only ever driven fiestas)
Its hard to make comparisons as they are pretty different beasts.
You need to drive them both to make your decision as different people will like different cars but the 197 stopped me from being a dedicated ford nut (only ever driven fiestas)
I'm not a great fan of the 197. I went for a 200 because the 'niggles' on the 197 stop it from being a great car. It doesn't 'feel' quick enough, for a start.
Personally I think the superficial side of the build quality (soft touch plastics, less interior rattles) is superior to the mk2 clio's (trophy etc). But the oily bits are way, way more fragile. Mines under a year old, the steering rack is knocking (not uncommon), the brakes are playing up (not uncommon), gearbox is notchy (not uncommon), and the engine/clutch make various rattling sounds (from new) that are considered normal.
Having now lived with the 200 for a while, I couldn't recommend it to anyone. They might not be as good to drive at the limit, but the Honda civic type r and mk5 golf gti are much better cars.
Personally I think the superficial side of the build quality (soft touch plastics, less interior rattles) is superior to the mk2 clio's (trophy etc). But the oily bits are way, way more fragile. Mines under a year old, the steering rack is knocking (not uncommon), the brakes are playing up (not uncommon), gearbox is notchy (not uncommon), and the engine/clutch make various rattling sounds (from new) that are considered normal.
Having now lived with the 200 for a while, I couldn't recommend it to anyone. They might not be as good to drive at the limit, but the Honda civic type r and mk5 golf gti are much better cars.
on the otherhand my 197 is on the original gearbox and no crunching and is fast approaching 5 years old (28k) has sailed through 2 past MOTs with no advisories and it's a dream to live with as a daily.
it's luck of the draw as with any care you get the 'Friday afternoon' specials that are always broken and you get a few troopers that just keep going. Look at corsa vxrs you get very good models then you get the ones with every problem under the sun. The interior isn't as great as say a mini or DS3 but I have no complaints regarding it and I'd say it's on par with fiesta ST.
I agree with the brakes and the pads can seize into the calipers (common) but when you replace them get whoever does it to put a fair bit of (iirc) coppergrease and you won't get a repeat of that problem.
If all you want a car that's fast off the line then another make is a better bet as the Clio is very much about the drive.
it's luck of the draw as with any care you get the 'Friday afternoon' specials that are always broken and you get a few troopers that just keep going. Look at corsa vxrs you get very good models then you get the ones with every problem under the sun. The interior isn't as great as say a mini or DS3 but I have no complaints regarding it and I'd say it's on par with fiesta ST.
I agree with the brakes and the pads can seize into the calipers (common) but when you replace them get whoever does it to put a fair bit of (iirc) coppergrease and you won't get a repeat of that problem.
If all you want a car that's fast off the line then another make is a better bet as the Clio is very much about the drive.
Edited by LovelyTia on Saturday 30th April 12:13
LovelyTia said:
on the otherhand my 197 is on the original gearbox and no crunching and is fast approaching 5 years old (28k) has sailed through 2 past MOTs with no advisories
The fact you actually seem impressed that your car has it's original box at 28k shows how sEdited by LovelyTia on Saturday 30th April 12:13
tty these cars can be. We must have been building gearboxes of various kinds now for what? 150 years? You would think the industry could now produce a gearbox to last at least 300k.I love my 197 F1.
Main reasons I love it:
1. There are not many about - obviously only 500 but even standard 197's are fairly hard to come by and those who do own them don't often resemble the chav image which I hate (Unlike the corsa/astra VXR following). There is something different about them which I really like.
2. You need Recaro seats in your life.
3. Considering its hot hatchiness, I still reckon the noise it produces is much better than all other hatches on the market.
4. Fairly practical in terms of space/comfort, bearing in mind the stiffened suspension, a long journey last week to London was anything but uncomfortable/dreary.
5. Twisting roads are immense for the car, the grip is simply unbelievable.
The one critique I have of the car is the MPG, be prepared to average around the 22-28 mpg mark, I anticipated this when I bought mine but to be honest it is a small price to pay since the smiles per miles outweighs that factor every time.
Take the plunge, you won't be dissapointed. I will try and get some pics of mine up later on for you when I'm not in work!
Main reasons I love it:
1. There are not many about - obviously only 500 but even standard 197's are fairly hard to come by and those who do own them don't often resemble the chav image which I hate (Unlike the corsa/astra VXR following). There is something different about them which I really like.
2. You need Recaro seats in your life.
3. Considering its hot hatchiness, I still reckon the noise it produces is much better than all other hatches on the market.
4. Fairly practical in terms of space/comfort, bearing in mind the stiffened suspension, a long journey last week to London was anything but uncomfortable/dreary.
5. Twisting roads are immense for the car, the grip is simply unbelievable.
The one critique I have of the car is the MPG, be prepared to average around the 22-28 mpg mark, I anticipated this when I bought mine but to be honest it is a small price to pay since the smiles per miles outweighs that factor every time.
Take the plunge, you won't be dissapointed. I will try and get some pics of mine up later on for you when I'm not in work!
Not all R27s have the revised gear box (longer 5th and 6th gears).
I had R27 number 427 of 500 (registered Dec 2007) and that did not have the revised 'box. I think you need to look for a 2008 car if you want the revised gearing.
The guys at clio197.net are pretty helpful and should be able to answer any questions.
I got rid of mine becuase i wanted something more involving to drive and got sick of having no low down torque - hence swapping for a Phase 2 Clio V6.
Don't get me wrong, they are excellent cars (noting some of the build quality issues above), I just fancied a change.
I had R27 number 427 of 500 (registered Dec 2007) and that did not have the revised 'box. I think you need to look for a 2008 car if you want the revised gearing.
The guys at clio197.net are pretty helpful and should be able to answer any questions.
I got rid of mine becuase i wanted something more involving to drive and got sick of having no low down torque - hence swapping for a Phase 2 Clio V6.
Don't get me wrong, they are excellent cars (noting some of the build quality issues above), I just fancied a change.
The gearbox issues are all to do with the sync mesh. I'd attribute this to either being worked too hard / gears being forced while the box oil is still cold.
The vast majority of cases I've seen happened within the first 2 years and as such were covered by warranty. Some early 197 owners (06 to early 08) had theirs replaced with the revised longer ratio gearbox and some late 197's were even lucky enough to be given the further revised 200 mechanism.
Something to look out for while test driving or viewing a used example - but by no means is it something that should put you off. They are all quite lumpy while still cold though.
The vast majority of cases I've seen happened within the first 2 years and as such were covered by warranty. Some early 197 owners (06 to early 08) had theirs replaced with the revised longer ratio gearbox and some late 197's were even lucky enough to be given the further revised 200 mechanism.
Something to look out for while test driving or viewing a used example - but by no means is it something that should put you off. They are all quite lumpy while still cold though.
PhilV6 said:
I got rid of mine becuase i wanted something more involving to drive and got sick of having no low down torque - hence swapping for a Phase 2 Clio V6.
Don't get me wrong, they are excellent cars (noting some of the build quality issues above), I just fancied a change.
Ah the V6, I loved mine when I had it but strangly enough its most likely the only car I don't miss owning any more. It's one of those cars I just never gelled with as much as I'd have hoped. The sound giving it the beans will stay with me forever however!Don't get me wrong, they are excellent cars (noting some of the build quality issues above), I just fancied a change.
Anyway, the 197; Phils right, the lack of low down torque can get a bit irritating at times but nothing a decent prod and stir of the gears wont solve
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