Master Class needed in 205 GTi
Discussion
Hello all, thinking about picking up a 205 GTi with budget of about £2500 give or take £500. However I have to say I know very little about the car and its history etc.
Can anybody please give me a real quick run down of what models, evolutions, upgrades were made to the car in and in what years etc.
Also any help on what I should be looking out for would be a great help.
Thanks
Can anybody please give me a real quick run down of what models, evolutions, upgrades were made to the car in and in what years etc.
Also any help on what I should be looking out for would be a great help.
Thanks
ive said this before, given the age of the car i believe its more important that you buy the bext example you can afford, not based on their spec or mileage etc. This will man that if you want a decent example you will probably have to travel.
Best of luck, i hope you find a good one.
p.s. its GTI not GTi
Best of luck, i hope you find a good one.
p.s. its GTI not GTi
From memory you want a pre 92 car as these were pre cat and bit more pokey.
You need to check over the bodywork with a fine tooth comb for rot and accident damage, they are like biscuit tins when new so rot wont help strengthen them any. Its not unknown for cracks to appear above the sill line behind the doors due to body flex. Some of the other problems are rear axle collapse where the rear wheels develop negative camber, in extreme cases the inner tyre shoulder may start to rub on the inner wheel arch. Its not unrepairable but usually better to get a recon axle and swap over.
Next choice is 1.6 or 1.9, personally theres no substitute for cubes.
After that is either standard or special editions where some had various add ons such as leather , sun roofs etc.
For a 1.9 early speedline alloys are a lot lighter than later ones when they swapped to another manufacture.
PS I'd personally stick with standard rather than modded and just appreciate it for what it is rather than try to make compete with modern hot hatches, esp in the HP department.
Also don't be suprised at how exposed you feel due to the lack of thick pillars and how fragile they feel, because you are and it is.
You need to check over the bodywork with a fine tooth comb for rot and accident damage, they are like biscuit tins when new so rot wont help strengthen them any. Its not unknown for cracks to appear above the sill line behind the doors due to body flex. Some of the other problems are rear axle collapse where the rear wheels develop negative camber, in extreme cases the inner tyre shoulder may start to rub on the inner wheel arch. Its not unrepairable but usually better to get a recon axle and swap over.
Next choice is 1.6 or 1.9, personally theres no substitute for cubes.
After that is either standard or special editions where some had various add ons such as leather , sun roofs etc.
For a 1.9 early speedline alloys are a lot lighter than later ones when they swapped to another manufacture.
PS I'd personally stick with standard rather than modded and just appreciate it for what it is rather than try to make compete with modern hot hatches, esp in the HP department.
Also don't be suprised at how exposed you feel due to the lack of thick pillars and how fragile they feel, because you are and it is.
Thanks for all this chaps. If I go for one it will be as original as possible and happy to spend a bit more for a clean example with documented service/care as well.
So in short the pick of the bunch is a pre 92 1.9 off the shelf model (no special editions etc)naturally buying the best most cared for car I can find?
So in short the pick of the bunch is a pre 92 1.9 off the shelf model (no special editions etc)naturally buying the best most cared for car I can find?
Maverick_JDL said:
Thanks for all this chaps. If I go for one it will be as original as possible and happy to spend a bit more for a clean example with documented service/care as well.
So in short the pick of the bunch is a pre 92 1.9 off the shelf model (no special editions etc)naturally buying the best most cared for car I can find?
Pretty much yeah, try and get one with plenty of history. You will probably drive a few dogs but worth it in the end.So in short the pick of the bunch is a pre 92 1.9 off the shelf model (no special editions etc)naturally buying the best most cared for car I can find?
G-H reg ones are the best built. J reg onwards have issues with laquer and also the chassis legs rot.
Special edition ones also only existed during that 89/90 apart from the 1FM.
They all crack above th e rear passenger window so I wouldn't worry about that. Mine's 20 years old next month and there is no external signs of rust.
They are cheap to maintain, cheap to run (from 26mpg up to 38mpg) lightweight and put a smile on your face everytime you drive it.
www.205gtidrivers.com
Special edition ones also only existed during that 89/90 apart from the 1FM.
They all crack above th e rear passenger window so I wouldn't worry about that. Mine's 20 years old next month and there is no external signs of rust.
They are cheap to maintain, cheap to run (from 26mpg up to 38mpg) lightweight and put a smile on your face everytime you drive it.
www.205gtidrivers.com
Edited by Simes205 on Monday 22 December 09:12
In addition to all the points above...
1) When you go to view one, make sure it's not already been warmed up. Get them to start it whilst watching the exhaust; a puff of blue smoke indicates worn valve stem seals which is quite likely at the sort of mileage these cars have now reached; not a major problem but a negotiation point
2) Let it warm up; indicated by the cooling fan at the front cutting in and out twice and, again, look at the exhaust; white smoke likely means a failed head gasket
3) Be prepared for some temperamental behavior starting the car when it's cold or damp; if the seller tells you it needs some gas to get it going when it's cold don't be too alarmed as long as you don't need to keep applying the gas for ages
4) Watch the idle speed; it should be around 700 - 800 (ish) when warm but will be much, much higher on a cold start (possibly 1.5k) this is the normal behavior. Make sure, though, that the idle speed does reduce down to that 700 - 800 point once warm
5) Open the bonnet and look for the oil filler point; it's a black cylinder with a lid connected to two hoses; The lid should need some effort to pull off; there should be some wire gauze in the lid - do not be alarmed if this contains "mayo". The cylinder should be attached by a single bolt to the inlet manifold; it's not unusual for the bracket to break - this is fine as long as the screw is still there - if not you'll never get the idle sorted out
6) It's worth mentioning again; with the car on level ground look at the back wheels. The car should be level and there should be no obvious sign of camber on either wheel. The rear beams are a weak point and you will be looking at upwards of £250 to have one properly rebuilt
Worth saying as well, if you're handy with a spanner, they are easy cars to work on plus there's still plenty of OEM parts available direct from Pug dealers. There's a healthy market in improved parts and what ever you do as others have said, you must become a member of 205GTIDrivers.com - there is so much knowledge rolling around in the forums there that any questions you have will be answered - if it hadn't been for that site I'd never have completed the rebuild of mine.
1) When you go to view one, make sure it's not already been warmed up. Get them to start it whilst watching the exhaust; a puff of blue smoke indicates worn valve stem seals which is quite likely at the sort of mileage these cars have now reached; not a major problem but a negotiation point
2) Let it warm up; indicated by the cooling fan at the front cutting in and out twice and, again, look at the exhaust; white smoke likely means a failed head gasket
3) Be prepared for some temperamental behavior starting the car when it's cold or damp; if the seller tells you it needs some gas to get it going when it's cold don't be too alarmed as long as you don't need to keep applying the gas for ages
4) Watch the idle speed; it should be around 700 - 800 (ish) when warm but will be much, much higher on a cold start (possibly 1.5k) this is the normal behavior. Make sure, though, that the idle speed does reduce down to that 700 - 800 point once warm
5) Open the bonnet and look for the oil filler point; it's a black cylinder with a lid connected to two hoses; The lid should need some effort to pull off; there should be some wire gauze in the lid - do not be alarmed if this contains "mayo". The cylinder should be attached by a single bolt to the inlet manifold; it's not unusual for the bracket to break - this is fine as long as the screw is still there - if not you'll never get the idle sorted out
6) It's worth mentioning again; with the car on level ground look at the back wheels. The car should be level and there should be no obvious sign of camber on either wheel. The rear beams are a weak point and you will be looking at upwards of £250 to have one properly rebuilt
Worth saying as well, if you're handy with a spanner, they are easy cars to work on plus there's still plenty of OEM parts available direct from Pug dealers. There's a healthy market in improved parts and what ever you do as others have said, you must become a member of 205GTIDrivers.com - there is so much knowledge rolling around in the forums there that any questions you have will be answered - if it hadn't been for that site I'd never have completed the rebuild of mine.
Edited by GnuBee on Monday 22 December 09:29
G/H plate - 1990 so that you can avoid all the emissions nonsense. Also get the full black interior (phase 2). The post '92 cars are slightly down in power (although as the best part of 20years old, I doubt you'd ever notice any difference) as they have a CAT and lower compression. However, they also have more sophisticated Motronic ignition as opposed to the older Jetronic system, plus coil pack etc. So drive smooth and generally run better (less raw).
Non power steering gives a more direct feel with greater feedback. Go for PAS if you do town driving or don't want to end up looking like a body builder.
Don't pay a premium for ABS - it's old, basic and not very good.
If there is any sign of body repair or rot, walk away. Original panels are expensive and aftermarket ones never fit properly. The body is fully galvanised and does not rust (hence why there are so many still about on the roads) except for under the battery tray and sometimes in the sills if they are blocked. Most parts can be picked up cheaply and easily replaced. So look for one with the best bodywork (resprays are expensive) and engine (if you don't fancying modding for more power). Suspension, brakes, interior etc are all cheap and easy to replace/fix.
Many will now be converted to Mi16/GTi-6/Turbo engines. Don't discount these if the rest of the car is in good, original (or sensibly upgraded) condition. You'll still get the 205 experience, just with some more modern zip
Non power steering gives a more direct feel with greater feedback. Go for PAS if you do town driving or don't want to end up looking like a body builder.
Don't pay a premium for ABS - it's old, basic and not very good.
If there is any sign of body repair or rot, walk away. Original panels are expensive and aftermarket ones never fit properly. The body is fully galvanised and does not rust (hence why there are so many still about on the roads) except for under the battery tray and sometimes in the sills if they are blocked. Most parts can be picked up cheaply and easily replaced. So look for one with the best bodywork (resprays are expensive) and engine (if you don't fancying modding for more power). Suspension, brakes, interior etc are all cheap and easy to replace/fix.
Many will now be converted to Mi16/GTi-6/Turbo engines. Don't discount these if the rest of the car is in good, original (or sensibly upgraded) condition. You'll still get the 205 experience, just with some more modern zip
When I was looking for mine it appeared to be either a choice of good body or good mechanically. I chose the mechanically sound option and did not regret it for one minute, it had had an engine/beam rebuild and was generally sound, the only issue for me was the paintwork but that was sorted by a respray.
I paid 1.3K for the car and about the same again for the respray and it was (almost!) worth every penny, I had it over to the Nurburgring, the Alps and up to Scotland and it was perfect. Once you get confifent wih these it is amazing the speed that you can carry although I've had a few scary moments on tight bends...'don't lift off, don't lift off'
Another excuse to post pictures of mine
I paid 1.3K for the car and about the same again for the respray and it was (almost!) worth every penny, I had it over to the Nurburgring, the Alps and up to Scotland and it was perfect. Once you get confifent wih these it is amazing the speed that you can carry although I've had a few scary moments on tight bends...'don't lift off, don't lift off'
Another excuse to post pictures of mine
They're lovely cars, still capably of putting a bloody great smile on your face, mine certainly does.
For 2.5K you can go for Minty McMint, places to check for rust is bottom of B pillar, front chassis legs and rear of the sills. As mentioned 89/90/91 cars are the ones to go for, good bodywork and no cat to drag down the power.
Mainly echoing whats been said above; they are temperamental when cold, its just the way they are, although if you threw money at the problem it'd probably go away. Mine takes a few prods of the accelerator once its started to settle down, then its fine.
Do be prepared to get your hands a bit dirty, or make very good friends with a mechanic - lots of little niggly issues can be sorted very cheaply if you have the time to actually find out what is causing the problem instead of taking the modern garage's technique of replacing everything until the issue goes away.
The 205gtidrivers.com already mentioned is a goldmine for this.
Well worth looking on 205 drivers for someone selling a cherished car with a good history (i.e. a car that's well know on the forum), they don't come up very often as people rarely want to sell though!
Oh yeah, final word of warning. Mentioning no names, but a dealership that has been known to specialise in Just GTI's is generally not highly regarded by the cognoscenti. Better off with a private buyer.
For 2.5K you can go for Minty McMint, places to check for rust is bottom of B pillar, front chassis legs and rear of the sills. As mentioned 89/90/91 cars are the ones to go for, good bodywork and no cat to drag down the power.
Mainly echoing whats been said above; they are temperamental when cold, its just the way they are, although if you threw money at the problem it'd probably go away. Mine takes a few prods of the accelerator once its started to settle down, then its fine.
Do be prepared to get your hands a bit dirty, or make very good friends with a mechanic - lots of little niggly issues can be sorted very cheaply if you have the time to actually find out what is causing the problem instead of taking the modern garage's technique of replacing everything until the issue goes away.
The 205gtidrivers.com already mentioned is a goldmine for this.
Well worth looking on 205 drivers for someone selling a cherished car with a good history (i.e. a car that's well know on the forum), they don't come up very often as people rarely want to sell though!
Oh yeah, final word of warning. Mentioning no names, but a dealership that has been known to specialise in Just GTI's is generally not highly regarded by the cognoscenti. Better off with a private buyer.
raf_gti said:
When I was looking for mine it appeared to be either a choice of good body or good mechanically. I chose the mechanically sound option and did not regret it for one minute, it had had an engine/beam rebuild and was generally sound, the only issue for me was the paintwork but that was sorted by a respray.
I paid 1.3K for the car and about the same again for the respray and it was (almost!) worth every penny, I had it over to the Nurburgring, the Alps and up to Scotland and it was perfect. Once you get confifent wih these it is amazing the speed that you can carry although I've had a few scary moments on tight bends...'don't lift off, don't lift off'
Another excuse to post pictures of mine
You could have replaced ALL the mechanicals for the price of the respray. I think that I'd still suggest looking for one with a sound body over mechanics, if you are prepared to get your hands dirty and save on labour costs.I paid 1.3K for the car and about the same again for the respray and it was (almost!) worth every penny, I had it over to the Nurburgring, the Alps and up to Scotland and it was perfect. Once you get confifent wih these it is amazing the speed that you can carry although I've had a few scary moments on tight bends...'don't lift off, don't lift off'
Another excuse to post pictures of mine
Interested in this one:
Edit - to the OP, mine is a 1993 with about 60k miles on the clock and was bought for less than your budget. I ran it as a daily driver for three years with no major issues, it's been off the road for a year but that's down to me taking too long to sort out silly little things.
Back on the road in January, then possibly up for sale.
GnuBee said:
5) Open the bonnet and look for the oil filler point; it's a black cylinder with a lid connected to two hoses; The lid should need some effort to pull off; there should be some wire gauze in the lid - do not be alarmed if this contains "mayo". The cylinder should be attached by a single bolt to the inlet manifold; it's not unusual for the bracket to break - this is fine as long as the screw is still there - if not you'll never get the idle sorted out
I'm probably being a moron, but why does the bracket securing the oil filler point have anything to do with the idle? Edit - to the OP, mine is a 1993 with about 60k miles on the clock and was bought for less than your budget. I ran it as a daily driver for three years with no major issues, it's been off the road for a year but that's down to me taking too long to sort out silly little things.
Back on the road in January, then possibly up for sale.
Edited by _dobbo_ on Tuesday 30th December 12:50
_dobbo_ said:
Interested in this one:
Edit - to the OP, mine is a 1993 with about 60k miles on the clock and was bought for less than your budget. I ran it as a daily driver for three years with no major issues, it's been off the road for a year but that's down to me taking too long to sort out silly little things.
Back on the road in January, then possibly up for sale.
I think he's talking about the screw. If it's not there then it makes an air leak.GnuBee said:
5) Open the bonnet and look for the oil filler point; it's a black cylinder with a lid connected to two hoses; The lid should need some effort to pull off; there should be some wire gauze in the lid - do not be alarmed if this contains "mayo". The cylinder should be attached by a single bolt to the inlet manifold; it's not unusual for the bracket to break - this is fine as long as the screw is still there - if not you'll never get the idle sorted out
I'm probably being a moron, but why does the bracket securing the oil filler point have anything to do with the idle? Edit - to the OP, mine is a 1993 with about 60k miles on the clock and was bought for less than your budget. I ran it as a daily driver for three years with no major issues, it's been off the road for a year but that's down to me taking too long to sort out silly little things.
Back on the road in January, then possibly up for sale.
Edited by _dobbo_ on Tuesday 30th December 12:50
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