306 D-Turbo/HDi economy?

[Chris71]

I need to get a new daily driver ASAP after an unfortunate meeting between my Citroen and some oncoming traffic and I was wondering about a 306...

I have a 65-mile round commute, almost all on the M25, so I need something quiet, comfortable and above all economical. I'd thought about diesel, but with fuel prices at their current levels, I wasn't sure if, say, a 45mpg diesel had much advantage over a 38mpg petrol. It seems that a diesel car has to be a lot more economical to justify the extra costs, so I wondered what sort of figures people were getting on the motorway?

Also, are there any differences between the D-Turbo and the HDi? Am I right in thinking they both have the GTi6 suspension or did I imagine that at some point?

[tonyvid]

Isn't an HDi a much later engine? Some 306s can have a pretty heavy clutch, worth checking if you are stop-starting all the time - my old 306XSi was really hard work in traffic. Great cars though, good chassis.

[Chris71]

I believe so - it's a little bigger too (2.0 as opposed to 1.9), but according to the figures it's no more expensive to run or insure.

I've just noticed the service interval - 6,000 miles a year is a bit scary when you do 15,000!

[tonyvid]

Chris71 said:

I've just noticed the service interval - 6,000 miles a year is a bit scary when you do 15,000!

Is an HDi on 6000 as well? You better get a sump can for all those oil changes!!

[Rob_the_Sparky]

The Earlier cars (not HDi) have a traditional mechanical system whereas an HDi has an electronic common rail injection system. Mpg for an HDi is meant to be significantly better than the older engines.

Rob

P.S. I used to run a earlier D-Turbo and got 45mpg, I'm told that an HDi is more like 50+ mpg...

[Matthew_Eames]

The HDi is 12k or 2 years...though i would be inclined to do it yearly as a matter of course
services cost £40 max in parts and are really easy to do

have owned both a 1998 Dturbo and a 2000 HDi Dturbo

Dturbo would return 45mpg on the motorway at 70, and slightly more if you drop down a bit, wouldnt go under 35mpg around town
HDi does a very real 50-52mpg on the motorway, could get high 50's if your careful and does 42ish for me at 70% urban driving, pretty good really, though an early Dturbo (with bosch fuel pump) can be run on nearly neat veg oil....something to think about

few things....

The Later HDI Dturbo (which is just a spec level) shares pretty much all the GTI suspension (-brakes...though these are fine) and has 15" wheels, and is a LOT better than an eariler car with 14" wheels, smaller brakes and lower spec suspension

there is a meridian spec which comes with leather and in 5 door only, though the setup is a bit softer

both are pretty slow in standard guise, they keep up but are not that great, the HDi can be mapped to 120bhp and a chunk more torque, apparently makes a big difference and no adverse affect in MPG
the older car can be manually tuned to deliver between 105 and 115bhp (dependent on fuel pump/turbo on the model)
well worth doing on either version

um, what else....they are reliable there are the usual french niggles (few electrics and the build gets a lot better as they get newer...better materials) but the engines are pretty solid, though the HDI has a habit of eating Crankshaft pulleys and Aux Fuel pumps, the Dturbo is simpler and more agricultural as a result

personally i think the HDI is a great car (see my profile) it looks good and is cheap to run, and fun to drive...the Dturbo was good and i cant really fault it, but the HDI is better in every regard (spec, looks, handling, engine) though an early Dturbo is an absolute bargin, tune it and run it on veg oil for what £700-£1000

alternatively look at the Xsara 110hdi, cheap as anything to buy (because it's not exactly pretty) more powerful (140bhp with a remap) and costs less to buy, also because they are intercooled they do slightly more MPG....apparently

[Chris71]

I had thought of a Xsara VTR turbo diesel. (And for that matter the later 1.6 petrol VTR, which is supposed to be good for 40mpg too.)

[YamR1V64motion]

ive had both an HDI and the 1.9 turbo diesel units, the HDI was a 110 BHP version in a Peugeot 406 and ive had the 1.9 engine in a 405,406 and Xantia for commuting, the HDI does offer slightly more MPG but doesnt offer a great deal more performance, especially compared to the 1.9 in the 405 for some reason they seem to go a lot better in them, i dont know if its to do with the intercooler set up or the fact its lighter, the 1.9 engine can be run on veg oil which is the reason ive always tried to go for one as it does save you a considerable amount of money, i save a good £25 or so per week compared to taking my Saab 9-5 Aero to work which does all add up over the months and i resent paying so much money to sit in traffic, the 1.9 is easier to work on too although they do need thier oil changes done when thier meant to be.

Edited by YamR1V64motion on Monday 14th July 21:18

Edited by YamR1V64motion on Friday 18th July 11:22

[Matthew_Eames]

YamR1V64motion said:

the 1.9 in the 405 for some reason they seem to go a lot better in them, i dont know if its to do with the intercooler set up or the fac its lighter

Edited by YamR1V64motion on Monday 14th July 21:18

dont think the 405 is any lighter, but i think it's got a stiffer chassis
the power difference between 1.9 DT's is down mainly to the fuel pump
bosch ones (early peugeots and all citroens...i think) delivers fuel at a higher pressure and is apparently more linear, wereas the later 306's went over to lucas pumps + Cat which makes them less willing
a combo of an early bosch pump and late turbo can give 130bhp on the standard setup (as found on late citroens 1998 onwards)

[Chris71]

Vegetable oil... tell me more... Is it just supermarket vegetable oil plus some sort of solvent to thin it down a bit in the winter? Does anyone have an idea of the costs or 'petrol MPG equivilant'.

[Matthew_Eames]

Chris71 said:

Vegetable oil... tell me more... Is it just supermarket vegetable oil plus some sort of solvent to thin it down a bit in the winter? Does anyone have an idea of the costs or 'petrol MPG equivilant'.

bingo
as long as it's got a bosch pump it will run neat veg oil in the summer, you have to mix it in the winter with a little bit of diesel (or a tiny amount of petrol will do the same job)
the lucas pump does not like it at all, and will kill itself if used with veg oil
MPG is pretty much exactly the same, and you can get it at roughly 70ppl if you buy in large enough amounts, probably best trying to source from a catering company or something, getting it from the supermarket will cost more

there is a limit (20,000 miles i think) that you can use it for per year without having to pay duty on it, and you need to replace fuel filters more often, but it could be very cheap motoring

[Chris71]

Matthew_Eames said:

Chris71 said:

Vegetable oil... tell me more... Is it just supermarket vegetable oil plus some sort of solvent to thin it down a bit in the winter? Does anyone have an idea of the costs or 'petrol MPG equivilant'.

bingo
as long as it's got a bosch pump it will run neat veg oil in the summer, you have to mix it in the winter with a little bit of diesel (or a tiny amount of petrol will do the same job)
the lucas pump does not like it at all, and will kill itself if used with veg oil
MPG is pretty much exactly the same, and you can get it at roughly 70ppl if you buy in large enough amounts, probably best trying to source from a catering company or something, getting it from the supermarket will cost more

there is a limit (20,000 miles i think) that you can use it for per year without having to pay duty on it, and you need to replace fuel filters more often, but it could be very cheap motoring

Cool. What happens if you're a little late (in the year) switching back to diluted fuel? Will it cause any lasting problems or do you just mix a little diesel in when it starts to sound a little lumpy?

Just to double check - do all DTurbos (as opposed to HDi's) have the Bosch fuel pump? If I get one, the intention would definitely be to run it on veg oil.

Edited by Chris71 on Tuesday 15th July 10:55

[Matthew_Eames]

Well the veg oil doesnt like cold temps, it becomes less like a liquid and means you have to warm the fuel before it goes in, hence mixing it with winter diesel (which has stuff in to stop this) or a little bit of petrol thins out the mix and makes it fine, when you first switch over it will drag a load of crap out of the system, so carry a few spare fuel filters and change them at 500 and 1000 miles after switching because they will clog up (it will be fine after that)

not all 306 DT's had bosch pumps, they switched to lucas on the facelift (late 1997) as it has a better immobiliser system apparently, the lucas pump is not as good and wont take veg oil at all

it's easy to tell

this is a lucas, you DONT want this

[Chris71]

Ok, so pre-97 is the way to go.

That does tend to suggest a high mileage car. Is that likely to be an issue?

[Matthew_Eames]

wouldnt say so, early 1994 cars had HG problems, but were fixed after that, and there is a known problem on later engines (post 1997) to throw conrods...earlier ones are fine
so long as they are serviced properly and run on decent oil 200k+ shouldnt be a problem, the engine is a taxi drivers favorite

your more likely to come across some electrical niggles and dents in the body (thin panels) but they dont rust

[Mr Whippy]

1.9Td 405's had no cat and just a single silencer, so they breathed lots better. They also had the better pump (Bosch) and were fairly light.

I'd just get a 306 HDi because it's easier to find a good one these days, although even finding them is hard.

A Citroen Xsara 110 HDi might be the best bet all round. My brother and I recently went to try find a 306 HDi for my mum and it was a nightmare. So many sheds. Same with the 1.9 Td's too...

306 HDi driven steadily on a motorway will get a real 50mpg+

I think an intercooled HDi110 Xsara may even get nearer the 60mpg mark if you drive it gently.

Dave

[Chris71]

...You can get a VTR version of the Xsara diesel too, which should be reasonably fun to drive. Unfortunately, there aren't many around. Actually, there don't seem to be a huge number of any given type of car on the market right now strangely. I've got a whole range of options which are possible and so when I see one that looks like a good deal I'll just grab that one... Hopefully.

[Mr Whippy]

Yep, lots of people are downgrading to these types of cars now, fuel costs rising and depreciation hurting people, the 306 HDi's are pretty tough on residuals and their mpg's can be a real 50mpg in normal mainly non-motorway use, not a pretend 50mpg if you do 60mph on a motorway for a whole tank. Also, the D Turbo HDi models are even more popular having almost GTi6 type setup standard so they are pretty fun to hoon around it too with a quick remap.

I'd certainly try get a nicer one. As silly as it sounds, you will pay a bit more, but it will be oodles easier to sell on, and if you keep it nice you can sell for a bit of a premium, and it'll tend to be nicer to own generally too. I'd say 75% of the cars out there are not worth even going to look at from recent and past experience.


My brother has tuned/owned loads of 1.9 Td's, as have I here and there, and now we work with the 2.0 HDi's, and have four HDi's in the family now. Great all-rounders. 1.9Td's still good, but the 2.0 HDi is better moving forward now in so many ways (although a well tuned 1.9 Td with ~ 135bhp is fun and full of character! )

Dave

Edited by Mr Whippy on Tuesday 15th July 16:20

[Matthew_Eames]

took me a year (ish) and seeing 10 cars to find mine, but then the car is relatively rare and i'm picky

out of interest Mr Whippy, what do you think of the SP tuning map compared to yours?

[Chris71]

Off to see a Xsara HDi 110 in about 10 minutes...