306 S16 / GTi / Rallye ?
Discussion
Apart from: Older S16: 5 gears, 155bhp / Newer GTi-6: 6 gears, 167bhp, electrics gubbins and air con / Newer Rallye: 6 gears, 167bhp, no electrics gubbins or air con. What are the differences between these cars? I'm looking for a track tool, and want to know what the best car is to start from. I'll be stripping the car to the metal and buggering around with suspension, light engine modifications, fitting a roll cage etc myself, so does this put all three on a level playing field for me, or are there any differences I don't know about.
A phase 1 Gti6 is the one you want in my view.
Supposedly lighter body than the later phase 2/3 306's even the Rallye, and the engine's appear to be alot more revvy (7500rpm limiters, not 7250rpm).
The S16 is 12bhp down, doesn't rev as hard, has 5 gears and has smaller standard brakes.
The cost of a good phase 1 Gti6 over an S16 is well worth it for the few extra goodies. Also the Gti6 alloys/leather seats/brakes (if you upgrade) are worth alot more to sell on Ebay etc than the equivalent S16 bits!
Ie, P1 Gti6 might be £1500 vs £1000 say for the S16, but the S16 WILL need brakes, so thats money down the drain, and if your getting buckets, the Gti6 interior's go for £200 wheras the S16 one will make less than half that at best. Then your down on gear ratio's and power out of the box.
P2/3/Rallye, more money for nothing more except weight basically, which is exactly what you don't want.
Dave
Supposedly lighter body than the later phase 2/3 306's even the Rallye, and the engine's appear to be alot more revvy (7500rpm limiters, not 7250rpm).
The S16 is 12bhp down, doesn't rev as hard, has 5 gears and has smaller standard brakes.
The cost of a good phase 1 Gti6 over an S16 is well worth it for the few extra goodies. Also the Gti6 alloys/leather seats/brakes (if you upgrade) are worth alot more to sell on Ebay etc than the equivalent S16 bits!
Ie, P1 Gti6 might be £1500 vs £1000 say for the S16, but the S16 WILL need brakes, so thats money down the drain, and if your getting buckets, the Gti6 interior's go for £200 wheras the S16 one will make less than half that at best. Then your down on gear ratio's and power out of the box.
P2/3/Rallye, more money for nothing more except weight basically, which is exactly what you don't want.
Dave
Not 100% sure but those dates seem correct, though I'm sure some might have been registered a bit later, both the S16's and Gti6 phase 1's.
My brother and I recently broke a P1 Gti6 (I had brakes), even a slightly damaged engine sold in bits for about £400, and then my brother fitted a diesel engine. But upon taking it apart and re-building vs his P2 Tdi and my P3 Hdi/Gti6, the quality of some parts is noticably better.
I genuinely think the P1 is the best built of the lot (not touched the S16 but we won't go there because it's not got enough gears
)!
Dave
My brother and I recently broke a P1 Gti6 (I had brakes), even a slightly damaged engine sold in bits for about £400, and then my brother fitted a diesel engine. But upon taking it apart and re-building vs his P2 Tdi and my P3 Hdi/Gti6, the quality of some parts is noticably better.
I genuinely think the P1 is the best built of the lot (not touched the S16 but we won't go there because it's not got enough gears
)! Dave
Wouldn't rule out an s16 just from what you see on paper. The standard cars are equally as quick, the gti6 has extra weight and things like aircon. The S16 engine internals can also withstand more, a remap/chip will see your limiter at 7.8k-8k and 10-15bhp. Get the cat out and the revs free up a lot more.
You need to condsider how many times you would use 6th gear on a track, in my experience very little!
But I've got an s16 so I'm biased
You wont be disapointed whatever you choose. Just if your willing to do a bit of work on the cars you'll save yourself a lot of money. I paid under £100 for mine, just needed a head gasket!!!
You need to condsider how many times you would use 6th gear on a track, in my experience very little!
But I've got an s16 so I'm biased
You wont be disapointed whatever you choose. Just if your willing to do a bit of work on the cars you'll save yourself a lot of money. I paid under £100 for mine, just needed a head gasket!!!
I'm looking for the cheapest, straightest donor car I can get TBH, i'm not fussed about the 6th gear, I just want a strong car that I can buy most of the track goodies for off the shelf. I'll be stripping everything oput of the car, so I doubt it'll matter which is heaviest to start with.
If your going for bucket seats, uprated brakes and wheels, and doing things like decat/engine filters etc, then the Gti6 still has it's merits.
The stock S16 has "Xsi" wheels, worth maybe £100 tops vs £250+ for the Gti6 "cyclones"
The stock S16 has an interior worth ~ £80, vs the Gti6 one worth £200+
The stock S16 brakes are common and worth maybe £50, vs the Gti6's worth £125+
You'll have buyers for the Gti6 cat section, wheras the S16 one might have less of a market.
Yes the 6th might never be used, but it's purely there to knock all the other gears down. Once out of 1st gear, the rev drop between changes are very short vs the 5spd box, where I believe the 5th gear is a touch longer than the Gti6 6th!
Yes a remap of the S16 gets you more revs and power, but the Gti6 starts with higher revs and power already (especially the fit P1's)
The phase 1 Gti6 will be within kilo's of the S16 on weight.
Throw in the above items to sell. You could make half the price it costs for the Gti6 back!
Personally I think the S16 is a good car, back in the day I quite fancied one! But the Gti6 is the better option now if your getting a phase 1 and stripping it for track work, simply because it's either half way there already with the better brakes and close ratio gearbox, or because the bits on it are worth lots more to sell to essentially pay for your upgraded bits!
Dave
The stock S16 has "Xsi" wheels, worth maybe £100 tops vs £250+ for the Gti6 "cyclones"
The stock S16 has an interior worth ~ £80, vs the Gti6 one worth £200+
The stock S16 brakes are common and worth maybe £50, vs the Gti6's worth £125+
You'll have buyers for the Gti6 cat section, wheras the S16 one might have less of a market.
Yes the 6th might never be used, but it's purely there to knock all the other gears down. Once out of 1st gear, the rev drop between changes are very short vs the 5spd box, where I believe the 5th gear is a touch longer than the Gti6 6th!
Yes a remap of the S16 gets you more revs and power, but the Gti6 starts with higher revs and power already (especially the fit P1's)
The phase 1 Gti6 will be within kilo's of the S16 on weight.
Throw in the above items to sell. You could make half the price it costs for the Gti6 back!
Personally I think the S16 is a good car, back in the day I quite fancied one! But the Gti6 is the better option now if your getting a phase 1 and stripping it for track work, simply because it's either half way there already with the better brakes and close ratio gearbox, or because the bits on it are worth lots more to sell to essentially pay for your upgraded bits!
Dave
It depends, if theres an S16 going for a few hundred quid, i'll get that, if i'm spending £1000 - £2000, i'll look for a phase 1 '6'. Selling the parts would help, but not enough to warrant choosing one model over the other, besides, alot of the stuff I might put in my HDi.
I've already researched (with help) what i'll most likely be fitting. Impending insurance payout will decide what will be done in what time frame but i've specced up some bits here:
Yokohama A048R Track Tire - 195/55/15 Medium Compound
Compomotive MO 6x15"
Strut Brace
Mutli point Point Roll Cage
GAZ Coilover Kit
Stiffer bushes throughout
Corbeau Revolution 1 Seats & Side Mounting Frames
6 Point Harnesses
Steering Wheel & Hub Boss
Exhaust System with decat
Induction Kit
Fibre Glass Bonnet & pins
Braided Brake Hoses Front & Rear
DS2500 Front Pads
EBC Greenstuff Rear Pads
OMP Drilled & Grooved Front Brake Discs
OMP Drilled & Grooved Rear Brake Discs
What do you think? A mate of mine has recently built a 306 Type-R with a B18 DC2 engine etc, so he's done alot of the leg work already, i'll just pick his brains and not follow his mistakes.
I've already researched (with help) what i'll most likely be fitting. Impending insurance payout will decide what will be done in what time frame but i've specced up some bits here:
Yokohama A048R Track Tire - 195/55/15 Medium Compound
Compomotive MO 6x15"
Strut Brace
Mutli point Point Roll Cage
GAZ Coilover Kit
Stiffer bushes throughout
Corbeau Revolution 1 Seats & Side Mounting Frames
6 Point Harnesses
Steering Wheel & Hub Boss
Exhaust System with decat
Induction Kit
Fibre Glass Bonnet & pins
Braided Brake Hoses Front & Rear
DS2500 Front Pads
EBC Greenstuff Rear Pads
OMP Drilled & Grooved Front Brake Discs
OMP Drilled & Grooved Rear Brake Discs
What do you think? A mate of mine has recently built a 306 Type-R with a B18 DC2 engine etc, so he's done alot of the leg work already, i'll just pick his brains and not follow his mistakes.
Edited by WildCards on Monday 6th November 14:10
It was also a homogolation special.
The S16 continued as S16 in Europe, with only the UK and maybe Aus adopting the Gti6 name for the uprated car.
Would have made 10x more sense to keep the S16 name infact. The Mi16 and S16 were nicer to insure. Stick a "GTi" badge on a hatchback and suddenly premiums rise two fold!
Dave
The S16 continued as S16 in Europe, with only the UK and maybe Aus adopting the Gti6 name for the uprated car.
Would have made 10x more sense to keep the S16 name infact. The Mi16 and S16 were nicer to insure. Stick a "GTi" badge on a hatchback and suddenly premiums rise two fold!
Dave
The s16 inlet manifolds have a rubber diaphragm, after spending a number of years on various Peugoet forums it would seem this component is particually week and expensive to replace.
As far as I'm aware this isn't an issue on GTi6's.
This is only information I've read numerous times and don't have direct experiance with, but it might be something worth doing a quick google on to research more.
The forums at www.psooc.co.uk might be worth a gander also.
As far as I'm aware this isn't an issue on GTi6's.
This is only information I've read numerous times and don't have direct experiance with, but it might be something worth doing a quick google on to research more.
The forums at www.psooc.co.uk might be worth a gander also.
TB Rich said:
The s16 inlet manifolds have a rubber diaphragm, after spending a number of years on various Peugoet forums it would seem this component is particually week and expensive to replace.
As far as I'm aware this isn't an issue on GTi6's.
This is only information I've read numerous times and don't have direct experiance with, but it might be something worth doing a quick google on to research more.
The forums at www.psooc.co.uk might be worth a gander also.
As far as I'm aware this isn't an issue on GTi6's.
This is only information I've read numerous times and don't have direct experiance with, but it might be something worth doing a quick google on to research more.
The forums at www.psooc.co.uk might be worth a gander also.
Yes, they are a pretty poor design and about £30 to replace. However its best to just throw away the s16 inlet manifold and use one off an mi16.
The list looks good. A couplf of things I would reconsider.
Gaz coilovers. I've had a fair bit of experience with these and, unfortunately, most of its been bad. Spend a little more and you'll have a better handling car. Also if your going for coilovers you should consider some grp A lower arms as these are adjustable and should be able to help sort out the front geometry.
Omp discs. I havent used the discs but was very dissapointed with there pads. I'd look at mintex or black diamond with a kevlar pad. I also wouldn't bother uprating the rear discs, they dont do enough work to warrent drilling and grooving. For track use you may also want to look at loosing the ABS and servo brakes. Replace with a nice pedal box to give you some better brake control.
Sounds like its going to be a good track car though!
Personally I think £1200 will make you faster spent on brakes, stripping weight, suspension, wheels and tyres, not just a big engine in a car which has standard parts you can't give away!
Not saying the T16 engine isn't good, but on a budget there are much better things to spend £££ on. The last P1 with a T16 esque engine went on the classifieds here I believe, for over £3500!
Dave
Not saying the T16 engine isn't good, but on a budget there are much better things to spend £££ on. The last P1 with a T16 esque engine went on the classifieds here I believe, for over £3500!
Dave
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