205 GTI 1.6 or 1.9? which one to buy?
Discussion
I'm in the market for a 205 GTI and whant to know which one is the best to go for.
I like the idea of the fact that the 1.6 because it has no power steering, but the 1.9 has rear disks. do any of the later 1.6's have disks at the back?
Engine size does not matter as i want to go the MI16 route. Driving and feedback is the main thing i'm looking for...
Thanks in advance,
Scott
I like the idea of the fact that the 1.6 because it has no power steering, but the 1.9 has rear disks. do any of the later 1.6's have disks at the back?
Engine size does not matter as i want to go the MI16 route. Driving and feedback is the main thing i'm looking for...
Thanks in advance,
Scott
1.6 vs 1.9 didnt determine power steering if I recall correctly; it is the age of the car that determined it!
You really have 3 things to decide; 1.6 vs 1.9, the series 1 vs series 2 (i.e. pre '89 or post '89), and sun roof or no sun roof (important if you want to turn it into a track or rally car).
I had a 1.9 and it's the best car I've owned. Superb car. What do you want out of it? To be honest it won't be a factor of price (as everything's the same, so to speak), more what you want with it and why!
Tony (still in love with his 1.9 from years ago
)
You really have 3 things to decide; 1.6 vs 1.9, the series 1 vs series 2 (i.e. pre '89 or post '89), and sun roof or no sun roof (important if you want to turn it into a track or rally car).
I had a 1.9 and it's the best car I've owned. Superb car. What do you want out of it? To be honest it won't be a factor of price (as everything's the same, so to speak), more what you want with it and why!
Tony (still in love with his 1.9 from years ago
)My 1.9 had unasisted steering I think - it was commically heavy either way. I got it off a bloke who had to sell because his wife refused to drive it for that very reason!
I'm told the 1.6 is more frantic and revvy in its power delivery and virtually equal performance to license threatening speeds, but admittedly I've never driven one.
I sort of regret not perservering with my 205, as (not for the last time...) it appeared I'd bought a bad example of a good car. On those grounds I'd say test drive plenty very thuroughly and go by condition unless you really specifically want one variant (or you're going to race it of course)
I'm told the 1.6 is more frantic and revvy in its power delivery and virtually equal performance to license threatening speeds, but admittedly I've never driven one.
I sort of regret not perservering with my 205, as (not for the last time...) it appeared I'd bought a bad example of a good car. On those grounds I'd say test drive plenty very thuroughly and go by condition unless you really specifically want one variant (or you're going to race it of course)
1.6s with ABS came with rear disks and not all 1.9s came with power steering. I would personally go with a 1.9 to enable future brake upgrades, 307 HDi calipers and disc bolt straight on and increase performance greatly.
I am just about to complete an Mi conversion and would personally buy a car that is already converted and spend the money required for the conversion on an engine rebuild.
The only issue with a 1.9 for an Mi conversion is the gear ratios which many consider too long for the revvy engine. But this is easily sorted with a final drive change, this is cheap, gives a long first gear for traction and the rest of the gears spaced very nicely to keep you in the power band.
Another tip is buy on the quality of the shell as everything else is easy and inexpensive to change.
Drop me an email if I can be of any more help.
I am just about to complete an Mi conversion and would personally buy a car that is already converted and spend the money required for the conversion on an engine rebuild.
The only issue with a 1.9 for an Mi conversion is the gear ratios which many consider too long for the revvy engine. But this is easily sorted with a final drive change, this is cheap, gives a long first gear for traction and the rest of the gears spaced very nicely to keep you in the power band.
Another tip is buy on the quality of the shell as everything else is easy and inexpensive to change.
Drop me an email if I can be of any more help.
scottieb said:
I'm in the market for a 205 GTI and whant to know which one is the best to go for.
I like the idea of the fact that the 1.6 because it has no power steering, but the 1.9 has rear disks. do any of the later 1.6's have disks at the back?
Engine size does not matter as i want to go the MI16 route. Driving and feedback is the main thing i'm looking for...
Thanks in advance,
Scott
I like the idea of the fact that the 1.6 because it has no power steering, but the 1.9 has rear disks. do any of the later 1.6's have disks at the back?
Engine size does not matter as i want to go the MI16 route. Driving and feedback is the main thing i'm looking for...
Thanks in advance,
Scott
99% of all GTi's you will look at have non-assisted steering, and you are right to avoid the ones with PAS.
I'd recommend buying the very best car that you can, and would go for a 1.9 as the base car. Aside from the obvious engine, wheels, brakes and interior, the 1.6 and 1.9 were practically identical. It may be worth adding a 1.6 gearbox to the Mi16 with the lower ratios for better acceleration.
TonyHetherington said:
1.6 vs 1.9 didnt determine power steering if I recall correctly; it is the age of the car that determined it!
You really have 3 things to decide; 1.6 vs 1.9, the series 1 vs series 2 (i.e. pre '89 or post '89), and sun roof or no sun roof (important if you want to turn it into a track or rally car).
I had a 1.9 and it's the best car I've owned. Superb car. What do you want out of it? To be honest it won't be a factor of price (as everything's the same, so to speak), more what you want with it and why!
Tony (still in love with his 1.9 from years ago)
You really have 3 things to decide; 1.6 vs 1.9, the series 1 vs series 2 (i.e. pre '89 or post '89), and sun roof or no sun roof (important if you want to turn it into a track or rally car).
I had a 1.9 and it's the best car I've owned. Superb car. What do you want out of it? To be honest it won't be a factor of price (as everything's the same, so to speak), more what you want with it and why!
Tony (still in love with his 1.9 from years ago
)Hi Tony,
What i want from the car is somthing that is light, fun, and agile both on the road and the track. The reason for my concern about the steering is because i have owned a VX220 turbo for the last 2 years and i dont think i could go back to PAS on a performance car!
Right now i'm seriously temted by this:
www.pistonheads.com/sales/100896.htm
The Stoat:
Would it still be possible to do the brake upgrades on this?
scottieb said:
TonyHetherington said:
1.6 vs 1.9 didnt determine power steering if I recall correctly; it is the age of the car that determined it!
You really have 3 things to decide; 1.6 vs 1.9, the series 1 vs series 2 (i.e. pre '89 or post '89), and sun roof or no sun roof (important if you want to turn it into a track or rally car).
I had a 1.9 and it's the best car I've owned. Superb car. What do you want out of it? To be honest it won't be a factor of price (as everything's the same, so to speak), more what you want with it and why!
Tony (still in love with his 1.9 from years ago)
You really have 3 things to decide; 1.6 vs 1.9, the series 1 vs series 2 (i.e. pre '89 or post '89), and sun roof or no sun roof (important if you want to turn it into a track or rally car).
I had a 1.9 and it's the best car I've owned. Superb car. What do you want out of it? To be honest it won't be a factor of price (as everything's the same, so to speak), more what you want with it and why!
Tony (still in love with his 1.9 from years ago
)Hi Tony,
What i want from the car is somthing that is light, fun, and agile both on the road and the track. The reason for my concern about the steering is because i have owned a VX220 turbo for the last 2 years and i dont think i could go back to PAS on a performance car!
Right now i'm seriously temted by this:
www.pistonheads.com/sales/100896.htm
The Stoat:
Would it still be possible to do the brake upgrades on this?
That's a lovely motor for sensible money. Go armed with a grand and you'll have nothing but fun!
That is a cracking car!
With colour preference I'd go for either of these... (first is 1.6, 2nd a 1.9)
www.pistonheads.com/sales/103056.htm
www.pistonheads.com/sales/104772.htm
but you really can't go wrong. Just make sure the chassis is sound and that any other bits you won't change are ok and you'll be a very very very (VERY) happy bunny!
With colour preference I'd go for either of these... (first is 1.6, 2nd a 1.9)
www.pistonheads.com/sales/103056.htm
www.pistonheads.com/sales/104772.htm
but you really can't go wrong. Just make sure the chassis is sound and that any other bits you won't change are ok and you'll be a very very very (VERY) happy bunny!
scottieb said:
The Stoat:
Would it still be possible to do the brake upgrades on this?
On that and other 1.6s you can do a brake upgrade, but you cannot use 'standard' parts off other models. You would have to go to the likes of Willwood calipers etc so things could get expensive.
Also if you were going to track it I would consider sticking in a 306 GTi6 engine to avoid the oil surge issues that many report with Mi engines. People will say the 306 engine is heavier than the Mi, but only a few KGs and if it really bothers you move the battery to the boot.
1.6 has a slightly wider track when fitted with 1.9 wheels.
1.9 has more options of brake upgrades, and also has the bigger CV joints and hubs compared to the 1.6, worth considering if you are doing an MI conversion.
1.6 gearbox with the MI final drive seems to be a good choice too, bit revvy for the motorway but fantastic in the twisties or on track.
1.9 has more options of brake upgrades, and also has the bigger CV joints and hubs compared to the 1.6, worth considering if you are doing an MI conversion.
1.6 gearbox with the MI final drive seems to be a good choice too, bit revvy for the motorway but fantastic in the twisties or on track.
There only real differneces between phase one and two are styling based. Phase 1s have grey plastics and differnet pattern on the seats. Also they orange indicators. This is a phase 1 www.pistonheads.com/sales/104772.htm
Phase 2 have plack plastics and clear indicator lenses. Again the seat pattern is different. This is a phase 2 www.pistonheads.com/sales/106776.htm.
But just to confuse you the crossovers phase 1.5 can have mixtures of the 2 phases!
Phase 2 have plack plastics and clear indicator lenses. Again the seat pattern is different. This is a phase 2 www.pistonheads.com/sales/106776.htm.
But just to confuse you the crossovers phase 1.5 can have mixtures of the 2 phases!
i agree with what someone said earlier, if you want an Mi16, look to get one thats aleady been done, ive easily spent twice as much on mine, than my mate who bought a mi16 track car complete with cage, buckets harnesses etc. It just amkes no sense! plus the fact that Mi engines are coming harder and more expensive to come by and any you do get will probably need (or atleast aught to have) a full rebuild
Regarding the phase 1 / 2 differences, they were mentioned above exactly right. It's only really styling and interior - the age that 205's are now you're far better just going for the right car ignorant of age, if you see what I mean?!
The sun roof is only really an issue if you're going to go 'professional' in it. On the road you won't have enough grip for it to be an issue, and if it's only the occasional track day (a few a year) then don't even worry. The time to consider it is if you'll be putting track day tyres on, uprating suspension etc.
Personally, I had a sun roof in my 1.9 and it was great - because it was quite deep and so let in a lot of light. was lovely
scottieb said:
How detrimental is the sunroof to the handling? is it worth waiting for one to come up without a sunroof or does it not really make that much difference?
The sun roof is only really an issue if you're going to go 'professional' in it. On the road you won't have enough grip for it to be an issue, and if it's only the occasional track day (a few a year) then don't even worry. The time to consider it is if you'll be putting track day tyres on, uprating suspension etc.
Personally, I had a sun roof in my 1.9 and it was great - because it was quite deep and so let in a lot of light. was lovely
There are actually 3 phases, not 2. Its just that true phase 1s are very rare, think they didn't have the galvanised body of the later cars. A true phase 1 has very different heater controls, linear like a ph1 309.
Aroun '90 GBoxes changed from BE1 to BE3. No great difference apart from the position of the reverse gear, I think BE3 are mean't to be slightly stronger but never had or heard of the BE1 being too weak.
1.6 v 1.9 - it really doesn't matter. You can put 1.9 parts on a 1.6 easily enough and they are better value for money. Differences:
Front driveshafts + brakes
Rear brakes and trailing arms
Master cylinder and rear brake compensators
Gbox ratios ~10% shorter, but if you are changing an engine anyway don't worry about it. Boxes are cheap and come out to change an engine anyway.
Cloth interior versus half leather, arguably an advantage as the cloth wears better and is less hassle to look after!
No electric windows
Wheels and tyres
Engine
Other stuff:
Sunroof - was an optional extra but fitted to 99% of cars. I prefer without, I rarely use the sunroof and it reduces head room. Not something a 205 has lots of...
Power Steering - another optional extra, think it became standard on late cars. On no-power cars steering is only heavy below 5mph, above this you have finger tip control without the power unless you are really pushing it and the feel through the steering is stunning. Not hard to remove though so don't let this stop you buying a car.
Rear beams - unless already re-built it will need doing. Leave it and the bill just gets bigger.
1.9 wheel aren't expensive to get hold of.
Aroun '90 GBoxes changed from BE1 to BE3. No great difference apart from the position of the reverse gear, I think BE3 are mean't to be slightly stronger but never had or heard of the BE1 being too weak.
1.6 v 1.9 - it really doesn't matter. You can put 1.9 parts on a 1.6 easily enough and they are better value for money. Differences:
Front driveshafts + brakes
Rear brakes and trailing arms
Master cylinder and rear brake compensators
Gbox ratios ~10% shorter, but if you are changing an engine anyway don't worry about it. Boxes are cheap and come out to change an engine anyway.
Cloth interior versus half leather, arguably an advantage as the cloth wears better and is less hassle to look after!
No electric windows
Wheels and tyres
Engine
Other stuff:
Sunroof - was an optional extra but fitted to 99% of cars. I prefer without, I rarely use the sunroof and it reduces head room. Not something a 205 has lots of...
Power Steering - another optional extra, think it became standard on late cars. On no-power cars steering is only heavy below 5mph, above this you have finger tip control without the power unless you are really pushing it and the feel through the steering is stunning. Not hard to remove though so don't let this stop you buying a car.
Rear beams - unless already re-built it will need doing. Leave it and the bill just gets bigger.
1.9 wheel aren't expensive to get hold of.
Rob sums it up well - 1.9 is a much better base for a conversion. 1990-91 are the better built/treated cars - later ones corrode more.
Mi16 gearbox is the better gearbox for all round (town and track) driving with the Mi16 engine.
I have a PAS rack with all assistance removed (quicker than non) , now this is heavy, but at speeds is nice and it loads up brilliantly in bends - makes you work hard. PAS is for wimps!!
Mi16 gearbox is the better gearbox for all round (town and track) driving with the Mi16 engine.
I have a PAS rack with all assistance removed (quicker than non) , now this is heavy, but at speeds is nice and it loads up brilliantly in bends - makes you work hard. PAS is for wimps!!
Edited by simes205 on Friday 20th October 18:30
Edited by simes205 on Friday 20th October 18:31
I had an MI16 fitted to my 1.6GTI. I kept the 1.6 gearbox for acceleration but it did max out at 130mph (not on a public road).
If I could do it all over again I'd have gone for the 1.9 because of the rear discs. The problem I had was that it was back in 1996 when 205 and MI16 spares were rarely available. You will have far more choice so go for the best example and chnage the gearbox and rear axle if it happens to be a 1.6.
Btw, I had twin 45 carbs on mine. I'd recommend them or throttle bodies for the extra grunt and engine roar
If you are not totally aware of what is involved in this conversion, search the forums because it can be expensive.....as I found out
If I could do it all over again I'd have gone for the 1.9 because of the rear discs. The problem I had was that it was back in 1996 when 205 and MI16 spares were rarely available. You will have far more choice so go for the best example and chnage the gearbox and rear axle if it happens to be a 1.6.
Btw, I had twin 45 carbs on mine. I'd recommend them or throttle bodies for the extra grunt and engine roar
If you are not totally aware of what is involved in this conversion, search the forums because it can be expensive.....as I found out
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