Mi16 Engine Question
Discussion
Reading the latest version of TRC got me thinking..
In it there is an article about racing for less than 10k, one of the cars they suggest to enter for the TRC Saloons is an Mi16 engined 306. Now to me an Mi16 engine means the all ally 1900cc XU9 engine where as, where as i think all 306's come with the iron blocked 2000cc XU10 engine. So do people think that they just meant a XU10 iron blocked engine, or is there some 306 varient that im not aware of that comes with a XU9 engine?
By this point im sure a lot of people are thinking why do i care; because I am currently thinking about building a 306 for track days and some racing and would love to build one with the lighter engine but i dont think its within the regs.
Cheers for help
In it there is an article about racing for less than 10k, one of the cars they suggest to enter for the TRC Saloons is an Mi16 engined 306. Now to me an Mi16 engine means the all ally 1900cc XU9 engine where as, where as i think all 306's come with the iron blocked 2000cc XU10 engine. So do people think that they just meant a XU10 iron blocked engine, or is there some 306 varient that im not aware of that comes with a XU9 engine?
By this point im sure a lot of people are thinking why do i care; because I am currently thinking about building a 306 for track days and some racing and would love to build one with the lighter engine but i dont think its within the regs.
Cheers for help
You are right the MI16 block is ally and the GTI6 block is cast, the only differance is about 20kilos, I have just put a GTI6 engine in my Pug 205 and will be racing in the TRC championship this year.
I got fed up with my 1900 8v blowing up every time I used it, i took the easy way to 200bhp.
I got fed up with my 1900 8v blowing up every time I used it, i took the easy way to 200bhp.
AmenToThat said:
Thanks for that, its what i thought its just the statement in TRC got me thinking i was missing something.
So are you racing in Class A this year? Things looked pretty fierce in that class with some very rapid machinary knocking around.
Yes, unfortunatley but I have spent the last 3 years trying to get over 200bhp from the 8v with nothing but problems, so decided i just needed a year of hopefully finishing races, well i would be happy to get to the end of the qualifying session without a blow up!!! So will be running it standard on throtlle bodies.
Its looking like a great championship this year, i only entered the last Lydden Hill race last year, the car was going great in qualifying until it blew up again!!
An mi16 engine in say an early phase 1 gti6 is a good choice.
The mi16 engine is lighter than the gti6 one, just as powerfull, and the early phase 1 body is lighter too.
You could get an S16 306 (late Mi16 engine 2.0, so *might* be XU9, but think the later Mi16's were cast block!?!?!?), but that has smaller brakes and a 5sp gearbox.
The Mi16 head apparently has huge valve seats to cut into, so you can fit big valves and uprated bottom end to rev harder and get more power which is good.
However, I've seen gti6 engines with cams and a fruity exhaust (decat) manage a good 195bhp, so they are by no means a bad engine either.
I'd be tempted to just get a phase 1 gti6 stock, get some lightweight 15's, decent pads and discs, and remove all the seats and boot lining etc (sell for alot, nice half leather), fit lightweight buckets, loose spare wheel.
Think thats 167bhp and under 1050kg (no driver or fuel)... All for what, maybe £2500 after you've sold the old Cyclone wheels and interior, then bought some lightweight 15's and the bucket seats?
Can't see why you'd want to fart around finding, fettling and fitting an unknown Mi16 engine into a 306, then uprating the 306 to gti6 spec (brakes, suspension and arb's (if not Xsi or S16), when an early P1 gti6 has everything you want and plenty of ebay'able bits to sell for daft money (interior £250+ if good, wheels £250+ if good)
Dave
>> Edited by Mr Whippy on Friday 7th April 14:16
The mi16 engine is lighter than the gti6 one, just as powerfull, and the early phase 1 body is lighter too.
You could get an S16 306 (late Mi16 engine 2.0, so *might* be XU9, but think the later Mi16's were cast block!?!?!?), but that has smaller brakes and a 5sp gearbox.
The Mi16 head apparently has huge valve seats to cut into, so you can fit big valves and uprated bottom end to rev harder and get more power which is good.
However, I've seen gti6 engines with cams and a fruity exhaust (decat) manage a good 195bhp, so they are by no means a bad engine either.
I'd be tempted to just get a phase 1 gti6 stock, get some lightweight 15's, decent pads and discs, and remove all the seats and boot lining etc (sell for alot, nice half leather), fit lightweight buckets, loose spare wheel.
Think thats 167bhp and under 1050kg (no driver or fuel)... All for what, maybe £2500 after you've sold the old Cyclone wheels and interior, then bought some lightweight 15's and the bucket seats?
Can't see why you'd want to fart around finding, fettling and fitting an unknown Mi16 engine into a 306, then uprating the 306 to gti6 spec (brakes, suspension and arb's (if not Xsi or S16), when an early P1 gti6 has everything you want and plenty of ebay'able bits to sell for daft money (interior £250+ if good, wheels £250+ if good)
Dave
>> Edited by Mr Whippy on Friday 7th April 14:16
Thanks for all the info..
After doing some further research on this (read trawling endlessly through the net)
I have confirmed that all 306's come with the later XU10 engine.. so unfortunately no ally Mi16 engine if i want to stay away from Class A. But as spdpug98 pointed out there isnt 'that much' difference in the weight between the two certainly not enought to warrent running the car in Class A.
As far as the differences between the XU10 engine in the S16 and the engine in a GTi-6 im less clear on this, i know the head is slightly different and it runs slightly larger valve stems but other than that....
Currently im a bit torn between buying an S16 because the tuning parts are cheaper for that engine and upgrading the brakes arb's etc... to those a Gti 6 OR just buying a Gti 6 to begin with.
Annoyingly the guy across the road has just bought an S16 in decent condition without a sunroof. I was not overly impressed when this was pointed out to me as im finding it very difficult to find an S16 without a sunroof let alone a decent one.
After doing some further research on this (read trawling endlessly through the net)
I have confirmed that all 306's come with the later XU10 engine.. so unfortunately no ally Mi16 engine if i want to stay away from Class A. But as spdpug98 pointed out there isnt 'that much' difference in the weight between the two certainly not enought to warrent running the car in Class A.
As far as the differences between the XU10 engine in the S16 and the engine in a GTi-6 im less clear on this, i know the head is slightly different and it runs slightly larger valve stems but other than that....
Currently im a bit torn between buying an S16 because the tuning parts are cheaper for that engine and upgrading the brakes arb's etc... to those a Gti 6 OR just buying a Gti 6 to begin with.
Annoyingly the guy across the road has just bought an S16 in decent condition without a sunroof. I was not overly impressed when this was pointed out to me as im finding it very difficult to find an S16 without a sunroof let alone a decent one.
I do believe the GTi-6 block is better at dealing with oil surge as opposed to the XU9JA4 (Mi16) which suffers more.
Also I think the S16 (XU10) is stronger than the GTI-6 block.
Brakes can be sourced from a 307HDI (same as 206GTI 180) I believe these may fit on S16 hubs just like they do on a 205.
Have a chat with these guys www.xsportracing.com speak to Miles.
>> Edited by simes205 on Friday 7th April 19:03
Also I think the S16 (XU10) is stronger than the GTI-6 block.
Brakes can be sourced from a 307HDI (same as 206GTI 180) I believe these may fit on S16 hubs just like they do on a 205.
Have a chat with these guys www.xsportracing.com speak to Miles.
>> Edited by simes205 on Friday 7th April 19:03
I'd just get a P1 gti6 to be honest.
LOTS of engine mods over the 2.0 Mi16/S16 iron block lump with it's AVAC intake system...
Plenty of alterations to the engine over the S16 one. OK, I know alot of that is marketing hype and generally making a point of things any engine has, but there are a few fancy bits in there. If you were buying for a road car on a £2k budget, I'd say get a mint S16. However, since this is a track car, I'd say get an early gti6, simply because it's got enough special bits that WILL be worth while on track over the S16. On the road they'd probably be close enough, but on a track 12bhp extra, 6 gears, and the bigger brakes will shine through.
Best to have a read over at the gti6 forum, linked at the top. Plenty of people there tracking gti6's and plenty have stripped them down and caged them... both S16 and GTI6 actually.
But like I say, gti6 wheels and interior are relative "gold dust" so you'd easily generate £500 from them if in good nick, so paying for bucket seats and a bit towards some nice 15" Superleggera's...
gti6 brakes are damn good stock, especially if your shaving off more weight. Apparently out of 20 odd racers in a track league (not sure on the details) only 2 had uprated brakes.
Then all you want is a lightened flywheel!
Dave
LOTS of engine mods over the 2.0 Mi16/S16 iron block lump with it's AVAC intake system...
Peugeot Press Pack said:
www.306gti6.com/forum/showthread.php?id=26827&page=1
The XU10 J4RS engine is the latest in the XU engine range. This 4 cylinder unit replaces the XU10J4 ACAV engine in the S16
1998cc capacity and a bore stroke of 86mm. It has a lighter rotating assembly and timing gear, a remodelled cylinder head, specially designed cams and a new inlet and a 4 branch tubular exhaust manifold.
The engine develops a maximum 167bhp at 6500 rpm and maximum torque of 193Nm at 5500 rpm.
The optimised acoustic harmony between inlet and exhaust produces a smooth torque curve.
Cylinder block
The thin wall cast iron block incorperates the 4 cylinder barrels, at the base of each there is a oil spray nozzle for piston base cooling.
The cast iron crankshaft is fitted with a vibration damper and supports new, lighter con rods. In fact the reduced mass of all the moving parts, by reducing inertia mankes for smoother changes in engine speed (injection cuts out at 7300rpm)
The timing gear is driven by a toothed belt system of hubs and idler wheels keeps the belf tension fully independant of camshaft timing.
Cylinder head
The light alloy (AS7) cylinder head is split into 2 main sections. In the lower section are forked inlet and exhaust pipes, the wedge shaped combustion chambers, the valve gear and coolant reservoir.
Compared with the original cylinder head, the pipes have been re-designed for an improved gas mixture flow. The wedge shaped combustion chamber features as a 'flush' - a special protuberance to improve the permeability of the cylinder head.
The camshafts are of a brand new design and the valve diagrams are specific to this type of engine.
Each cam is individually lubricated and as in the other multi valve engines in the range the cams act directly on the hydraulic zero lash tappets.
The wieght of these tappets has been reduced from 62.5g to 50g to assist speed by limiting inertia. The valves have 2 return springs and are almost identical to the valves found and the XU10J4R except they are:
More permeable because of the alignment of the neck valves and lighter because 1mm has been shaved off the rod diameter thus saving 10g in weight.
Inlet control and exhaust
The air inlet has an aluminium manifold consisting of a chamber or plenum with a composite Helmholtz resonator fitted in parrallel to establish acoustic harmony with the chamber. The resulting smooth torque curve gives the driver the feeling of constant acceleration.
4 pipes run from the manifold to the cylinder headeach one consisting of a primary tube 283mm long coupled to a 37mm trumpet build into the plenum. The manfiold is also fitted with a pressure sensor which keeps the calculator constantly informed of the engine load.
At the front of the manifold is the progressivly acting throttle unit (64mm) There is also a seperate step motor ensuring correct air regulation when engine is idling.
Sequential ignition and injection are controlled by a new Magneti Marelli AP10 control unit fitted with Flash EPROM. Twin jet injectors spray in vapourised fuel while a regulator controls petrol pressure. Ignition is triggered with 1 coil per cylinder and the engine is protected by a pinking sensor.
There is a 4-2-1 tubular dissymmetrical exhaust manifold, precision engineered by ECIA the comprises of 4 stainless steel tubes with an internal diameter of 37mm. The exhaust run into a 1.9 litre catalytic converter and the rear silencer is strengthened.
BE3/6 gearbox
The design and production of this 6 speed gearbox was initially commissioned by Peugeot Sport to satisfy the requirements of customers involved in road/rally competition. This gave birth to the SMAN organization conceived specially for rally connoisseurs.
Peugeot engineers and designers naturally turned to this gearbox in search of a power trian ideally suited to the GTi6.
The 6th gear housing is slightly outside the main gearbox, slkightly increasing turing circle to the right.
Of the 6 forward gears only 3rd has pinions specially designed for the BE3/6. The other pinions were selected form the existing range of ratios on the BE5 variations.
The gear stepping obtained from these choices was carefully adjusted to give the lowest possible falls in engine speed to ensure optimal use of the torque and power curves, The gear change diagram reveals that first gear is slightly longer than on the 306 S16.
The other 5 gear are relitivley close although 6th is slightly longer than the old 5th.
Suspension, Steering and brakes
The suspension and steering remain almost unaltered on the GTi6.
The self steering rear axel incorporates rubber blocks of varying hardness and gradual absorbtion which constantly keep it in the best possible position in relation to the struture.
Plenty of alterations to the engine over the S16 one. OK, I know alot of that is marketing hype and generally making a point of things any engine has, but there are a few fancy bits in there. If you were buying for a road car on a £2k budget, I'd say get a mint S16. However, since this is a track car, I'd say get an early gti6, simply because it's got enough special bits that WILL be worth while on track over the S16. On the road they'd probably be close enough, but on a track 12bhp extra, 6 gears, and the bigger brakes will shine through.
Best to have a read over at the gti6 forum, linked at the top. Plenty of people there tracking gti6's and plenty have stripped them down and caged them... both S16 and GTI6 actually.
But like I say, gti6 wheels and interior are relative "gold dust" so you'd easily generate £500 from them if in good nick, so paying for bucket seats and a bit towards some nice 15" Superleggera's...
gti6 brakes are damn good stock, especially if your shaving off more weight. Apparently out of 20 odd racers in a track league (not sure on the details) only 2 had uprated brakes.
Then all you want is a lightened flywheel!
Dave
Cheers for all the info and the link Dave, i will have a shuffle around on the gti6 website from my brief look around there seems to be more useful info on the site that I initially thought when i saw the site first a while back.
I am leaning towards getting a Gti 6 for numerous reasons including some of the ones that you bought up. The better torque curve due to the AVAC intake is appealing but i would probably move to throttle bodies as soon as my budget allowed. I have not totally ruled out an S16 though as i know with a few engine mods it would easily surpass the 167 bhp of the Gti 6.
I am not in a huge rush to part with my cash although I am itching to start the next project.. as first the garage needs to be cleared of the remaining junk from the last project. Also finding a decent car without a sunroof (as i might race it i want a non-sunroof car) that is not half way accross the country isnt easy. So ill just bide my time and wait for the right car to come along, whilst trying not to spend any more of the money set asside for the car.
Cheers again for the info, and reminding me about the forum.
Duncan
I am leaning towards getting a Gti 6 for numerous reasons including some of the ones that you bought up. The better torque curve due to the AVAC intake is appealing but i would probably move to throttle bodies as soon as my budget allowed. I have not totally ruled out an S16 though as i know with a few engine mods it would easily surpass the 167 bhp of the Gti 6.
I am not in a huge rush to part with my cash although I am itching to start the next project.. as first the garage needs to be cleared of the remaining junk from the last project. Also finding a decent car without a sunroof (as i might race it i want a non-sunroof car) that is not half way accross the country isnt easy. So ill just bide my time and wait for the right car to come along, whilst trying not to spend any more of the money set asside for the car.
Cheers again for the info, and reminding me about the forum.
Duncan
Glad it's helpfull.
Some good stuff, some not so good at the site. If you find the posts by people who have actually caged their cars, or regularly track them, there is some handy info!
Anyway, good luck with finding the car, and with the project. Make sure you post some pics up here, or even log on and post at the gti6 forum and show us your handy work
Dave
Some good stuff, some not so good at the site. If you find the posts by people who have actually caged their cars, or regularly track them, there is some handy info!
Anyway, good luck with finding the car, and with the project. Make sure you post some pics up here, or even log on and post at the gti6 forum and show us your handy work
Dave
The s16 engine is the one to go for in my opinion, the reasons for this are.
The Gti6 engine (xu10j4rs) is great but is well known to slip timing belts at any opertunity as it has tensioner problems.
Even though the s16 uses the same tensioner setup it does not suffer these problems, wierd i know
The s16 engine offers huge tuning potential especially if you ever want to go forced induction, it was based on the T16 engine has the same 'knife edged' crank but no forged pistons.It is similar to the Iron MI16 lump but the crank is the main differance.
The gti6 6 speed box is HEAVYYYY and big (also quite problematic and whiney),you also loose steering lock due to a spacer put on the rack to prevent the NS wheel fouling the gearbox on lock.
This is my first post on here, but i have had a few 306's and pugs ph1 gti6, ph1 s16, now have a 306 cab that i am putting in a 8v turbo lump, previously had an mi16 205. So i do know a little about the pug engine range. Good luck but if it was my money i would be looking at s16
The Gti6 engine (xu10j4rs) is great but is well known to slip timing belts at any opertunity as it has tensioner problems.
Even though the s16 uses the same tensioner setup it does not suffer these problems, wierd i know
The s16 engine offers huge tuning potential especially if you ever want to go forced induction, it was based on the T16 engine has the same 'knife edged' crank but no forged pistons.It is similar to the Iron MI16 lump but the crank is the main differance.
The gti6 6 speed box is HEAVYYYY and big (also quite problematic and whiney),you also loose steering lock due to a spacer put on the rack to prevent the NS wheel fouling the gearbox on lock.
This is my first post on here, but i have had a few 306's and pugs ph1 gti6, ph1 s16, now have a 306 cab that i am putting in a 8v turbo lump, previously had an mi16 205. So i do know a little about the pug engine range. Good luck but if it was my money i would be looking at s16
The gti6 engine does have the advantage if your running a stock car imho. A P1 GTI6 stripped down would be Soooo much easier than making an S16 as competitive I rekon!
Already has bigger brakes, 6spd gearbox, same chassis as S16. Only reason I'd think you'd go for the S16 lump is for it's tuneability, which I admit is alot more workable than the GTI6 unit.
Swings and roundabouts really. But stripping down a gti6 means nicer leather to sell, and Cyclone wheels (both desireable on Ebay, and which the S16 doesn't have), which subsidises lightweight 15's and some bucket seats!
Simple economics and not wanting to mess with the engine leaves the gti6 miles ahead I rekon
Dave
Already has bigger brakes, 6spd gearbox, same chassis as S16. Only reason I'd think you'd go for the S16 lump is for it's tuneability, which I admit is alot more workable than the GTI6 unit.
Swings and roundabouts really. But stripping down a gti6 means nicer leather to sell, and Cyclone wheels (both desireable on Ebay, and which the S16 doesn't have), which subsidises lightweight 15's and some bucket seats!
Simple economics and not wanting to mess with the engine leaves the gti6 miles ahead I rekon
Dave
Yep, 8.4kg or therabouts.
However, a Team Dynamics Pro-race item, or OZ Superleggera in 15" are around the 5.5kg mark, a very substantial drop in unsprung weight, and a good saving on overall car weight too!
Also see how much Cyclones go for on Ebay. All the Pug 106 owners are buying them up, there more no than ever before!
If you've got a bigger budget, do up an S16 and it's engine. If the budget is smaller you'll get further sooner with an early GTi6, but then it'll cost you more to get upto the levels the S16 eventually would.
Swings and roundabouts I would say.
Dave
However, a Team Dynamics Pro-race item, or OZ Superleggera in 15" are around the 5.5kg mark, a very substantial drop in unsprung weight, and a good saving on overall car weight too!
Also see how much Cyclones go for on Ebay. All the Pug 106 owners are buying them up, there more no than ever before!
If you've got a bigger budget, do up an S16 and it's engine. If the budget is smaller you'll get further sooner with an early GTi6, but then it'll cost you more to get upto the levels the S16 eventually would.
Swings and roundabouts I would say.
Dave
Sorry to resurect this but I have just been given a free 306 S16 to use in my project car. It has not turned a wheel in about a year and has done approximately 140,000 miles. I realise that I will have to strip it dowm to check that all is well before running it and am interested in what I can "do" to it easily, and most importantly, cheaply to improve the performance. I know that the head will take bigger valves, but that is quite a large chunk of my budget on just that, so are there any other mods that people would suggest? I have also been told that it is basically the same block as the T16 and that is should turbo relativly easily. How much and where would I source the pistons and which turbo would fit? Any pointers gratefully recieved.
Many thanks,
Jon
Many thanks,
Jon
The Gti6 manifold is meant to be a good buy (got one for £60, make sure it has throttle body on, and stepper motor if you can, and the resonator plastic box under the intake trunks if you can, and no snapped hose connections, few bhp to be had, but mainly dumping that stupidly complex AVAC system that fails and doesn't seem to add more than a load of intake drag)
Catcam intake cam (£200 or so, apparently worth 5bhp alone or 10bhp with mods)
A big cone filter as straight as you can off the end of the GTi6 manifold (Cheap as chips, and having the air go nearside to offside and then straight down the intake trumpets... can't get much more optimised than that bar throttle bodies)
Decat (elementary, weld a straight bit in with a hole/threaded bit for the lambda)
We've stumped for a PTFE intake gasket for a GTi6 to go with the GTi6 manifold.( seen worthwhile gains on the GTi6, mainly torque across the whole rpm band, think it was worth 3bhp at peak power and maybe 5lbft at peak torque at the same day dyno prints I'd seen)
I've spoken to a respected race engine builder and he said that with the right injector selection to make the most of the changes we could have 175bhp, which along with better torque really isn't so bad for the cost.
Dave
Catcam intake cam (£200 or so, apparently worth 5bhp alone or 10bhp with mods)
A big cone filter as straight as you can off the end of the GTi6 manifold (Cheap as chips, and having the air go nearside to offside and then straight down the intake trumpets... can't get much more optimised than that bar throttle bodies)
Decat (elementary, weld a straight bit in with a hole/threaded bit for the lambda)
We've stumped for a PTFE intake gasket for a GTi6 to go with the GTi6 manifold.( seen worthwhile gains on the GTi6, mainly torque across the whole rpm band, think it was worth 3bhp at peak power and maybe 5lbft at peak torque at the same day dyno prints I'd seen)
I've spoken to a respected race engine builder and he said that with the right injector selection to make the most of the changes we could have 175bhp, which along with better torque really isn't so bad for the cost.
Dave
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