French do it better
Discussion
Why do the French just do small cars better?
About 5 years back I had a C1 on lease (£99 a month deal) and the 1.2L 3 pot motor was brilliant..in a brilliant chassis. So after that I thought I'd upgrade the daily hack to an UP!...so went with a High Up with all the nice bits, Pano Roof, 17" wheels etc...God it was boring and the suspension born from Rock. All the motoring mags praise these but the C1 was a much much better car.
So after trying an A-Class..again far too hard suspension I went back to a performance car again (had Subaru Turbos, Golf GTi's, 205 GTi (still own) before so got tempted back by a cheap to run... 335D.
Yes it was good...economical for the pace, great quality, steered well but again the suspension was very very firm...so I've gone back to a French fancy. This time an old DS3 Cabrio..it too has 17" wheels but boy have they got this thing right. It drives sooo much better than all the German cars, even against a new A3 E-Tron my wife has, this things suspension is sharper but still soft, it goes round corners with so little effort, they just get these small cars spot on.
Why can't the Germans copy this but with a better (higher quality materials) interior?
About 5 years back I had a C1 on lease (£99 a month deal) and the 1.2L 3 pot motor was brilliant..in a brilliant chassis. So after that I thought I'd upgrade the daily hack to an UP!...so went with a High Up with all the nice bits, Pano Roof, 17" wheels etc...God it was boring and the suspension born from Rock. All the motoring mags praise these but the C1 was a much much better car.
So after trying an A-Class..again far too hard suspension I went back to a performance car again (had Subaru Turbos, Golf GTi's, 205 GTi (still own) before so got tempted back by a cheap to run... 335D.
Yes it was good...economical for the pace, great quality, steered well but again the suspension was very very firm...so I've gone back to a French fancy. This time an old DS3 Cabrio..it too has 17" wheels but boy have they got this thing right. It drives sooo much better than all the German cars, even against a new A3 E-Tron my wife has, this things suspension is sharper but still soft, it goes round corners with so little effort, they just get these small cars spot on.
Why can't the Germans copy this but with a better (higher quality materials) interior?
Because the french always did small cheap, (s
tty) cars - so no wonder they're good at them! 
I'll disagree on the VW Up vs the Aygo triplets though. Driven both lots, the VW Up is a much more pleasant place to be, while still being billy basic in terms of materials/spec. The Aygo triplets all just felt very, very very harsh, tinny and thrashy, the Up a bit more grown up/better screwed together.
tty) cars - so no wonder they're good at them! I'll disagree on the VW Up vs the Aygo triplets though. Driven both lots, the VW Up is a much more pleasant place to be, while still being billy basic in terms of materials/spec. The Aygo triplets all just felt very, very very harsh, tinny and thrashy, the Up a bit more grown up/better screwed together.
I guess born from the 2cv the French way of tuning suspension has always worked well on UK roads. Plenty of travel and not to stiff compression damping. The hydrogas stuff was always brilliant too and with later ones also didn't roll too much. Haven't driven too many new french cars but from what you say I'd assume they are still the ones to go for if you actually want it to ride well.
Drove a freinds Q2 the other day. Jesus christ, you could be forgiven for thinking the thing had the hubs welded straight to the body. He thinks its fine 'because Audi'
Drove a freinds Q2 the other day. Jesus christ, you could be forgiven for thinking the thing had the hubs welded straight to the body. He thinks its fine 'because Audi'
I had the Up 1.5years, couldn't go on any longer and the C1 (was the newer shape) 2 years. The UP engine 75bhp model wasn't a patch on the C1 82bhp unit. I would imagine the 90bhp turbo UP would be better. Quality wise I just don't think it's much of an issue at this level sometimes, the UP was still hard plastic and metal showing etc. granted it felt a bigger car so the design/package was well done but the chassis was a poor second.
This DS3 is a Diesel which suits these small cars no end. Similar to the little Pandas we always rent in Greece...I had a Diesel one once and that was brilliant in a small car much better than the Petrol.
This DS3 is a Diesel which suits these small cars no end. Similar to the little Pandas we always rent in Greece...I had a Diesel one once and that was brilliant in a small car much better than the Petrol.
thiscocks said:
I guess born from the 2cv the French way of tuning suspension has always worked well on UK roads. Plenty of travel and not to stiff compression damping. The hydrogas stuff was always brilliant too and with later ones also didn't roll too much. Haven't driven too many new french cars but from what you say I'd assume they are still the ones to go for if you actually want it to ride well.
Drove a freinds Q2 the other day. Jesus christ, you could be forgiven for thinking the thing had the hubs welded straight to the body. He thinks its fine 'because Audi'
The wifes A3 isn't bad, it's fairly soft but with that comes no feeling, no sharpness, just a bland drive with no level of involvement. Great for some...Drove a freinds Q2 the other day. Jesus christ, you could be forgiven for thinking the thing had the hubs welded straight to the body. He thinks its fine 'because Audi'
I'd forgot how good these French cars were and like many had got used to buying German, even buying an ML many years ago to get some ride comfort..although with the air suspension set to Sport that too would shake fillings out.
Personally I have never had anything but positive experiences with French cars.
I've owned 9 Renaults over the years, still own two Renaultsports and despite moving towards German cars predominantly I have a massive soft spot for Frenchies.
Even when I look at the crop of current hot hatches, I vie toward the fast Megane over a Golf or even Civic. Just seems to have a bit more character to me.
I think people's views have changed a little toward French stuff. When I bought my 172 in 2003, it got slated by people driving early 90s Jap stuff and yet now RenaultSport gets quite a lot of credit. Same goes for other fast French stuff.
I've owned 9 Renaults over the years, still own two Renaultsports and despite moving towards German cars predominantly I have a massive soft spot for Frenchies.
Even when I look at the crop of current hot hatches, I vie toward the fast Megane over a Golf or even Civic. Just seems to have a bit more character to me.
I think people's views have changed a little toward French stuff. When I bought my 172 in 2003, it got slated by people driving early 90s Jap stuff and yet now RenaultSport gets quite a lot of credit. Same goes for other fast French stuff.
The roads in which French cars are usually tuned require a supple suspension for the car to be “driveable”. For certain brands like Citroën, the people who define the atributes of the new models even sometimes ask for a certain floatiness so that the driving feel is somewhat similar to the tradicional cars of the brand.
This has some “drawbacks” too. For the ride to be as refined as possible usually a big “bypass” area on the dampers is necessary, which can create a delay on the steering response and less control of the body movements. You can add hydraulic bumstops to minimise this phenomenon in-extremis, like Citroën does, but there will still be a certain amount of stroke of the damper in which the body will move more “freely”.
On the other hand, from my limited experience, German manufacturers work a lot on steering response (it has to be linear and without delay around the “zero”) and body control. If for instance you have to do an emergency lane change at very high speed, that is what you need for the car to feel safe and predictable.
This has some “drawbacks” too. For the ride to be as refined as possible usually a big “bypass” area on the dampers is necessary, which can create a delay on the steering response and less control of the body movements. You can add hydraulic bumstops to minimise this phenomenon in-extremis, like Citroën does, but there will still be a certain amount of stroke of the damper in which the body will move more “freely”.
On the other hand, from my limited experience, German manufacturers work a lot on steering response (it has to be linear and without delay around the “zero”) and body control. If for instance you have to do an emergency lane change at very high speed, that is what you need for the car to feel safe and predictable.
robertdon777 said:
Why do the French just do small cars better?
I'm going to say that they probably don't, really. It's just a Top Gear style, oft repeated myth. They may possibly be "better" at it than German manufacturers are (depending on your priorities) but I haven't seen much to recommend them as being head and shoulders above small Fords / Vauxhalls / Mazdas / Toyotas etc etc etc.Most likely it's just that most car enthusiasts are the right age to remember Saxos / 205s / 106s / 306s during their formative years and the bias is now set in.
Feel the same - German and Japanese stuff often seems so much better on paper and I like them all.
But when it comes to driving - and having driven a lot of other people's stuff doing car deliveries - it was nearly always the French that surprised and the German and Japanese that disappointed. Sometimes the other way round, but not usually.
But when it comes to driving - and having driven a lot of other people's stuff doing car deliveries - it was nearly always the French that surprised and the German and Japanese that disappointed. Sometimes the other way round, but not usually.
I've recently been going round the dealerships for an SUV'ish and found
Toyota Rav4 expensive for the sake of it both in purchase and servicing
Mazda CX5 price on par with the Rav4 but it felt dated
Kia Sportage lot of cheap shiny plastic and I didn't like the model specs/colours available
Dacia Duster uncomfortable and awkward getting in / out
Seat Ateca looks and feels nice but it was available in the company car scheme so relatively pointless
This then left me going into a Citroen dealership for the C5 Aircross. Practical, good spec, 1.5 diesel as I do lots of miles and warranty will cover me as optional 4 year 100,000 miles for £299 is a bonus. I found the foot rest to clutch pedal gap a bit of an issue but I'll get use to it.
But whilst bored one night I found myself you-tubing videos and I know the C5 has the suspension bags but the difference in this test is remarkable
C5 moose test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRh5BzzIuOQ
Tiguan moose test (Ateca/Karoq similar) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faw9NeBM3n0
Octavia failed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5443aj-990
Fingers crossed I wont regret my decision, due January 2023 :-)
Toyota Rav4 expensive for the sake of it both in purchase and servicing
Mazda CX5 price on par with the Rav4 but it felt dated
Kia Sportage lot of cheap shiny plastic and I didn't like the model specs/colours available
Dacia Duster uncomfortable and awkward getting in / out
Seat Ateca looks and feels nice but it was available in the company car scheme so relatively pointless
This then left me going into a Citroen dealership for the C5 Aircross. Practical, good spec, 1.5 diesel as I do lots of miles and warranty will cover me as optional 4 year 100,000 miles for £299 is a bonus. I found the foot rest to clutch pedal gap a bit of an issue but I'll get use to it.
But whilst bored one night I found myself you-tubing videos and I know the C5 has the suspension bags but the difference in this test is remarkable
C5 moose test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRh5BzzIuOQ
Tiguan moose test (Ateca/Karoq similar) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faw9NeBM3n0
Octavia failed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5443aj-990
Fingers crossed I wont regret my decision, due January 2023 :-)
Edited by PisstNBroke on Sunday 2nd October 17:46
I only drive French cars now. I have mainly done so all my life but did have a couple of land rovers , mercs and VWs. I just prefer French cars. The combination of funky interiors and the softer suspension, plus usually relatively light weight really works for me.
The original DS3 is a lovely small car. I believe DS are thinking about a modern electric one.
The original DS3 is a lovely small car. I believe DS are thinking about a modern electric one.
Alex_225 said:
Personally I have never had anything but positive experiences with French cars.
I've owned 9 Renaults over the years, still own two Renaultsports and despite moving towards German cars predominantly I have a massive soft spot for Frenchies.
Even when I look at the crop of current hot hatches, I vie toward the fast Megane over a Golf or even Civic. Just seems to have a bit more character to me.
I think people's views have changed a little toward French stuff. When I bought my 172 in 2003, it got slated by people driving early 90s Jap stuff and yet now RenaultSport gets quite a lot of credit. Same goes for other fast French stuff.
I have had 4 French cars all of which have had electrical issues.I've owned 9 Renaults over the years, still own two Renaultsports and despite moving towards German cars predominantly I have a massive soft spot for Frenchies.
Even when I look at the crop of current hot hatches, I vie toward the fast Megane over a Golf or even Civic. Just seems to have a bit more character to me.
I think people's views have changed a little toward French stuff. When I bought my 172 in 2003, it got slated by people driving early 90s Jap stuff and yet now RenaultSport gets quite a lot of credit. Same goes for other fast French stuff.
The 21 GTX the main wiring harness from the fuse box was routed through a large P clip on the side of the engine and chafed through burning out the harness.
The Laguna/the Scenic/and the Xsara picasso all had coil pack failures and all 4 cost a fortune in maintenance over the years.
They were though all very comfortable to sit in while waiting for the AA,Not small i know but i think i have had my fill of French cars and have replaced the Picasso with an Astra diesel.
PisstNBroke said:
I've recently been going round the dealerships for an SUV'ish and found
Toyota Rav4 expensive for the sake of it both in purchase and servicing
Mazda CX5 price on par with the Rav4 but it felt dated
Kia Sportage lot of cheap shiny plastic and I didn't like the model specs/colours available
Dacia Duster uncomfortable and awkward getting in / out
Seat Ateca looks and feels nice but it was available in the company car scheme so relatively pointless
This then left me going into a Citroen dealership for the C5 Aircross. Practical, good spec, 1.5 diesel as I do lots of miles and warranty will cover me as optional 4 year 100,000 miles for £299 is a bonus. I found the foot rest to clutch pedal gap a bit of an issue but I'll get use to it.
But whilst bored one night I found myself you-tubing videos and I know the C5 has the suspension bags but the difference in this test is remarkable
C5 moose test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRh5BzzIuOQ
Tiguan moose test (Ateca/Karoq similar) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faw9NeBM3n0
Octavia failed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5443aj-990
Fingers crossed I wont regret my decision, due January 2023 :-)
Thats bloody impressive how the C5 clings on. Goes to show how stiff suspension doesnt mean good handling!Toyota Rav4 expensive for the sake of it both in purchase and servicing
Mazda CX5 price on par with the Rav4 but it felt dated
Kia Sportage lot of cheap shiny plastic and I didn't like the model specs/colours available
Dacia Duster uncomfortable and awkward getting in / out
Seat Ateca looks and feels nice but it was available in the company car scheme so relatively pointless
This then left me going into a Citroen dealership for the C5 Aircross. Practical, good spec, 1.5 diesel as I do lots of miles and warranty will cover me as optional 4 year 100,000 miles for £299 is a bonus. I found the foot rest to clutch pedal gap a bit of an issue but I'll get use to it.
But whilst bored one night I found myself you-tubing videos and I know the C5 has the suspension bags but the difference in this test is remarkable
C5 moose test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRh5BzzIuOQ
Tiguan moose test (Ateca/Karoq similar) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faw9NeBM3n0
Octavia failed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5443aj-990
Fingers crossed I wont regret my decision, due January 2023 :-)
Edited by PisstNBroke on Sunday 2nd October 17:46
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