Clio 182: Brake Issues

[wiv678]

Hi All,

Looking for some advice on my Clio 182

Background

Around three weeks ago, I washed my car and then applied handbrake and left the car to sit (without moving it post-wash) for two weeks. On my return and went to move the car and the rear pads had stuck to the discs. I eventually got the car free with a bang from the rears (I’ve had this before with previous cars, but not this violent).

Symptoms

As I drove away I could hear a distinct grinding/whirring from the rear. I assumed this was the accumulated rust and so pulled a series of aggressive stops to see if this would clear. More worryingly the braking performance of the car has been diminished; I got the feeling that the rear was doing nothing in this regard. The grinding has gone, but I still had the feeling something was wrong with the rear brakes.

Since that point I’ve taken the car to a reputable indie and they seemed to think everything was ok with the brakes, but I still have doubt.

Today I jacked the car up and spun the wheels my hand. Both wheels don’t spin freely and will immediately stop revolving as soon as my effort stops. I also turned on the ignition (but not the engine) and applied the brake while trying to manually spin the wheel. There was no difference in resistance from having the brakes applied or not – which is worrying

• Handbrake works without issue
• Rear wheels spin but with resistance
• Rear discs seem rusty, especially as compared to the front discs

Please help!

I’d be grateful for anyone’s input into this and what they think the issue might be. The car is no show pony, but I want the thing to stop and so I’m resolved to getting this fixed correctly. Please let me know:

• Any further diagnostics I could perform
• What the issue may be
• Any potential quick solutions

Thanks for taking time to read

[R8Steve]

More than likely seized calipers.

The rear brakes on 182's hardly do anything anyway so i wouldn't imagine you would even notice if they weren't working on the road.

[Zarco]

R8Steve said:

More than likely seized calipers.

The rear brakes on 182's hardly do anything anyway so i wouldn't imagine you would even notice if they weren't working on the road.

I got into the habit of parking my 172 Cup in gear quite quickly as the rear brakes always binded over night. Did the same with the 182 I had for a bit.

I'm no mechanic but have you tried easing the handbrake on a bit on the move? Might clean up the discs a bit and make a difference.

[Salamura]

The 1*2s don't really need rear brakes at all, and if your fronts are working OK you should see no difference in braking performance even if the rears aren't at 100% . Had a similar issue with the rears binding when I only used to drive the car once every one or two weeks, with the associated grinding noise. After driving it daily for about a week or so, the grinding stopped. I had the brakes checked at a local garage, and they confirmed that they were fine. I suspect you just need to drive the car a bit more and they will be fine.

[LordHaveMurci]

Did a seasons hillclimbing as well as daily driving my 172 Cup without noticing the rear brakes weren't doing anything.

[Dave Brand]

Salamura said:

The 1*2s don't really need rear brakes at all,

EVERY car needs rear brakes! The rears are probably doing 30% or less of the braking, but take that away & you're significantly reducing the overall braking effort.

Ever driven a car with the rear brakes disconnected? Believe me, the difference is noticeable.

[wiv678]

@dave brand: I can definitely tell the difference since the pads stuck to the discs

I've found a local MOT Test Centre that will test them for me tonight. So let's see what the MOT brake test machine comes back with.

[R8Steve]

Dave Brand said:

Salamura said:

The 1*2s don't really need rear brakes at all,

EVERY car needs rear brakes! The rears are probably doing 30% or less of the braking, but take that away & you're significantly reducing the overall braking effort.

Ever driven a car with the rear brakes disconnected? Believe me, the difference is noticeable.

Clio sports rear brakes are that redundant that they even have an exception for them in the VOSA MOT notes, they do virtually nothing. They were designed that way. Renault themselves removed the actuating arm from the load sensing valve at the factory.

[MRichards99]

R8Steve said:

Dave Brand said:

Salamura said:

The 1*2s don't really need rear brakes at all,

EVERY car needs rear brakes! The rears are probably doing 30% or less of the braking, but take that away & you're significantly reducing the overall braking effort.

Ever driven a car with the rear brakes disconnected? Believe me, the difference is noticeable.

Clio sports rear brakes are that redundant that they even have an exception for them in the VOSA MOT notes, they do virtually nothing. They were designed that way. Renault themselves removed the actuating arm from the load sensing valve at the factory.

Any reason for this design? Wouldn't additional braking power from the rear be a good thing (I guess it could upset brake bias)? Really interested why this was done

[R8Steve]

MRichards99 said:

R8Steve said:

Dave Brand said:

Salamura said:

The 1*2s don't really need rear brakes at all,

EVERY car needs rear brakes! The rears are probably doing 30% or less of the braking, but take that away & you're significantly reducing the overall braking effort.

Ever driven a car with the rear brakes disconnected? Believe me, the difference is noticeable.

Clio sports rear brakes are that redundant that they even have an exception for them in the VOSA MOT notes, they do virtually nothing. They were designed that way. Renault themselves removed the actuating arm from the load sensing valve at the factory.

Any reason for this design? Wouldn't additional braking power from the rear be a good thing (I guess it could upset brake bias)? Really interested why this was done

Cups were designed as track cars and the brakes were set up from the factory for track. Clio's are very light at the back end, extremely difficult to get decent heat in the rear tyres and therefore benefit having a massive bias on front brakes to stop the rear locking during braking.

To test the theory take a Clio sport, remove the ABS fuse and enjoy spinning at the first corner you brake hard into. The fuse removal disables the electronic brake distribution and results in the bias being 50/50 making the car almost undriveable.

[wiv678]

The MOT brake test results:

Front Left: 253
Front Right: 263
Rear Left: 109
Rear Right: 112

The guy in the MOT centre said all good, although advised the pads on the rears could do with changing before long.

Anyone see anything strange in the results?

[R8Steve]

wiv678 said:

The MOT brake test results:

Front Left: 253
Front Right: 263
Rear Left: 109
Rear Right: 112

The guy in the MOT centre said all good, although advised the pads on the rears could do with changing before long.

Anyone see anything strange in the results?

Does the car pull to the right under braking?

That small discrepancy apart looks fine to me, the cups would register even less rear braking performance, normally under 50.

[wiv678]

Yeah,

There is the smallest of pulls under heavy braking. Nothing that shocked me though

[Dave Brand]

R8Steve said:

Cups were designed as track cars and the brakes were set up from the factory for track. Clio's are very light at the back end, extremely difficult to get decent heat in the rear tyres and therefore benefit having a massive bias on front brakes to stop the rear locking during braking.

There is, however, a difference between heavy front bias & no rear brakes. In the absence of any actual data let's assume than the rear brakes are contributing 5% of the braking effort (could be higher, could be lower); braking at only 95% of the possible maximum retardation could be the difference between winning a race & finishing second!

Edit: looking back through the thread, wiv678's figure of 250 for the fronts & your comment that a cup would normally register less than 50 implies a factory front/rear balance possibly as high as 85/15.

Edited by Dave Brand on Wednesday 4th April 21:32

Edited by Dave Brand on Wednesday 4th April 21:35

[artdealer]

wiv678 said:

Yeah,

There is the smallest of pulls under heavy braking. Nothing that shocked me though

That could be wear in suspension and bushes as much as the brakes. They're pretty closely balanced.

IIRC the 172 Cup was specificall 85/15 and no ABS. Renault updated VOSA on the redundancy of the balance valve during MOT. (in the absence I have forgotten proper name now lol)

[wiv678]

To follow-up on this:
Took the car to get new rear pads and and the brake fluid changed and bled.
The brake peddle now feels connected to the system and the car will slow with relatively little pressure on the peddle
From my, admittedly subjective view point and limited road to test (London rush hour traffic), this has made a big difference and I now have confidence the car will stop - though I'm not sure if it's quite as good as before the issue
The mechanic suggested the system had a lot of air when he was carrying out the work.
Thanks for everyone's input on this.