206 Hdi starting problems
Discussion
Morning folks,
Friend has a 206 HDi which has some electrical gremlins ..... no great surprise!
Symptoms:
From cold and after warm weather it is really sluggish to start, the starter is SLOW and it will drain a battery almost immediately. On the old battery ( tested as a dead cell) it would also reset the clock and trip info. The new battery is fine but the start problem persists. Once it has been started and run once, it starts the next time but it still sounds like a hamster is running the starter motor.
So after replacing a battery I'm now thinking it's an earth fault / electrical fault. I don't think it's the starter motor or the solenoid as when you jump start it ( good earth to other vehicle via jump leads) it's absolutely fine. That would also rule out starter relay fault or ECU / immobiliser faults.
Does anyone know where all the earth points are on these things? I know there's one on the gearbox housing so that's the one i'll check first but any other suggestions ( other than burning it) would be much appreciated.
Friend has a 206 HDi which has some electrical gremlins ..... no great surprise!
Symptoms:
From cold and after warm weather it is really sluggish to start, the starter is SLOW and it will drain a battery almost immediately. On the old battery ( tested as a dead cell) it would also reset the clock and trip info. The new battery is fine but the start problem persists. Once it has been started and run once, it starts the next time but it still sounds like a hamster is running the starter motor.
So after replacing a battery I'm now thinking it's an earth fault / electrical fault. I don't think it's the starter motor or the solenoid as when you jump start it ( good earth to other vehicle via jump leads) it's absolutely fine. That would also rule out starter relay fault or ECU / immobiliser faults.
Does anyone know where all the earth points are on these things? I know there's one on the gearbox housing so that's the one i'll check first but any other suggestions ( other than burning it) would be much appreciated.
I don't think it's physically possible for it to drain a battery almost immediately. This is what I think is happening:
Starter is slow due to a current flow problem - as previous poster said, possibly an earth lead or similar. This is why the starter is slow, and the thing is when you have a high resistance somewhere due to a dodgy connection, it heats up as it tries to conduct the current. As it heats up, it becomes even more resistive and the starter motor will run even slower and slower the more you try and start it. So if the battery is new, it could well be that this is what is happening.
But here's some more useful experience: My 206 (an early one, which has the electrics from the 306 and hence none of the electrical gremlins of the post 2001 cars) had a funny starting issue at one time. Sometimes it started, sometimes nothing from the starter motor at all. I tried everything but it turned out to be... The battery terminal, which I hadn't considered. I thought it would be something more complex and computery, for some reason. The battery terminal wasn't loose, but it was faulty in some way (I never did find out in what way), so it was replaced for a few quid and the problem was banished. Not sure how this was diagnosed though. From memory it didn't look corroded or anything. One of the few times I lost confidence in the car, but confidence was largely replaced when it was such an easy fix instead of some weird magical gremlins. It helps having a competent experienced independent garage too, I worry what would happen if the dealer had charged me for a million hours of computer diagnosis, completely missing this basic part.
Starter is slow due to a current flow problem - as previous poster said, possibly an earth lead or similar. This is why the starter is slow, and the thing is when you have a high resistance somewhere due to a dodgy connection, it heats up as it tries to conduct the current. As it heats up, it becomes even more resistive and the starter motor will run even slower and slower the more you try and start it. So if the battery is new, it could well be that this is what is happening.
But here's some more useful experience: My 206 (an early one, which has the electrics from the 306 and hence none of the electrical gremlins of the post 2001 cars) had a funny starting issue at one time. Sometimes it started, sometimes nothing from the starter motor at all. I tried everything but it turned out to be... The battery terminal, which I hadn't considered. I thought it would be something more complex and computery, for some reason. The battery terminal wasn't loose, but it was faulty in some way (I never did find out in what way), so it was replaced for a few quid and the problem was banished. Not sure how this was diagnosed though. From memory it didn't look corroded or anything. One of the few times I lost confidence in the car, but confidence was largely replaced when it was such an easy fix instead of some weird magical gremlins. It helps having a competent experienced independent garage too, I worry what would happen if the dealer had charged me for a million hours of computer diagnosis, completely missing this basic part.
When i changed the battery over last week I did notice a fair degree of 'skank' around the base of the terminal connections - it's entirely possible that this is contributing!!
I'll get some wet and dry paper on the inside of the connections as well as cleaning the other areas. The clutch is a little iffy and it isn't what you'd call smooth so I'm suspecting there will have been a degree of pulling on the gearbox earth strap.
What you suggest about the increase in resistance sounds correct though, the problem seems markedly worse with the new battery but oddly after a short drive it never fails to start although it's still a SLOW starter motor. Or is this just the slight degree of extra charge in the system overcoming the resistance problem?
I'll get some wet and dry paper on the inside of the connections as well as cleaning the other areas. The clutch is a little iffy and it isn't what you'd call smooth so I'm suspecting there will have been a degree of pulling on the gearbox earth strap.
What you suggest about the increase in resistance sounds correct though, the problem seems markedly worse with the new battery but oddly after a short drive it never fails to start although it's still a SLOW starter motor. Or is this just the slight degree of extra charge in the system overcoming the resistance problem?
Found this ..... it's the sequence needed to put the cars onboard computer to sleep PRIOR to disconnecting the battery.
Put the driver's window down, lift the bonnet and ensure all equipment is switched off.
Ensure all doors are closed and remove key from the ignition.
Wait for 3 minutes, disconnect the vehicle battery and wait 15 seconds.
Reconnect the vehicle battery, wait a further 10 seconds (do not open doors.).
Switch on the side lights through the driver's window.
Switch on the ignition and check system's functionality.
Hold lock button on key down for 10 seconds.
Remove key open & close door test central locking system.
Start the engine and complete the system's check.
Failure to follow this procedure could result in incorrect operation of many BSI related items.
I'll be following this, given the cars dodgy electrical system it's a miracle it hasn't killed itself by now.
The picture below isn't the car I am fixing but it's a 206 with the usual french build quality and this is a known weak spot.
A is the battery earth and vehicle gearbox earth and B is where it should be attached.
Put the driver's window down, lift the bonnet and ensure all equipment is switched off.
Ensure all doors are closed and remove key from the ignition.
Wait for 3 minutes, disconnect the vehicle battery and wait 15 seconds.
Reconnect the vehicle battery, wait a further 10 seconds (do not open doors.).
Switch on the side lights through the driver's window.
Switch on the ignition and check system's functionality.
Hold lock button on key down for 10 seconds.
Remove key open & close door test central locking system.
Start the engine and complete the system's check.
Failure to follow this procedure could result in incorrect operation of many BSI related items.
I'll be following this, given the cars dodgy electrical system it's a miracle it hasn't killed itself by now.
The picture below isn't the car I am fixing but it's a 206 with the usual french build quality and this is a known weak spot.
A is the battery earth and vehicle gearbox earth and B is where it should be attached.
The BSI reset procedure you posted above is unlikely to affect the speed at which the starter spins. Very very unlikely. Still, it doesn't exactly hurt to try it.
Re: the battery terminals. It's not a matter of corrosion which can be cleaned off - it's the actually terminal itself (or perhaps how it is crimped to the wire). I believe you need to do more than just clean off the visible, instantly accessible parts of the terminal. At least, in my case. Needs disassembly.
You're sure the new battery works? Starter is okay? Althought it's tempting to blame 'dodgy' French wiring it may be something more mundane and traditional like the starter, battery, and such.
Re: the battery terminals. It's not a matter of corrosion which can be cleaned off - it's the actually terminal itself (or perhaps how it is crimped to the wire). I believe you need to do more than just clean off the visible, instantly accessible parts of the terminal. At least, in my case. Needs disassembly.
You're sure the new battery works? Starter is okay? Althought it's tempting to blame 'dodgy' French wiring it may be something more mundane and traditional like the starter, battery, and such.
Edited by Pentoman on Monday 30th July 18:58
So ....
1. Both relays were FRIED / Corroded / Dead - connectors stripped, new spade terminals on and all tidied up.
2. Low speed fan resistor looked like it had been dipped in cow dung - replaced.
3. Several things living in the radiator - cleaned.
4. Fan now works and AC blows cold and activates the cooling fan when it's on.
5. 2 of the wires to the above relays were literally corroded off their spade terminals
6. Fan power wire from the 2 pin block was almost worn through due to chaffing on the fan housing.
7. Checked battery earth and all good and terminals clean and contacts good.
8. Coolant / Temperature sender is dead as the car gets to 90+ degrees but the fan doesn't automatically cut in and the new relay doesn't click. However now that point 4 is sorted, that's fine as you can just run the aircon permanently which cools the cabin AND the cars radiator.
All of the above is fixed - took 3 hours all in and was a stinking filthy pig of a job.
It still doesn't start and within 3 attempts of trying, the starter effectively dies but the lights don't and nor does the horn or instrument cluster.
So that leaves the starter motor - it can't be the alternator. The car will start if it has been left but is apparently worse in the warm weather. Now it's just a clicking solenoid you can hear, not even an attempt to turn the engine over - I have NEVER seen a new battery die that fast. When I've had duff batteries in the past, they've died slowly as has the speed of the starter motor, this is almost instant.
I don't think it's a fault with the engine as once it's running, it's perfect and pulls well in all gears and there's no smoke on start, tickover or under load.
Looks like i'll be sourcing a recon starter or removing and cleaning the existing one - unless you have any better suggestions.
edit: - found a 2nd hand starter off a low mileage car for 25 beer tokens delivered - at that price I'm happy with the gamble.
As a further moan .... given that people buy these things for first cars - WTF is the problem with sticking the fuse info / relay info INSIDE the relevant covers? Peugeot are cheapskate *!****! and anyone who buys one of these infernal things over a Micra of the same vintage is an idiot. Having had the time to dig through and examine the build quality tonight, I'm far from impressed with it.
1. Both relays were FRIED / Corroded / Dead - connectors stripped, new spade terminals on and all tidied up.
2. Low speed fan resistor looked like it had been dipped in cow dung - replaced.
3. Several things living in the radiator - cleaned.
4. Fan now works and AC blows cold and activates the cooling fan when it's on.
5. 2 of the wires to the above relays were literally corroded off their spade terminals
6. Fan power wire from the 2 pin block was almost worn through due to chaffing on the fan housing.
7. Checked battery earth and all good and terminals clean and contacts good.
8. Coolant / Temperature sender is dead as the car gets to 90+ degrees but the fan doesn't automatically cut in and the new relay doesn't click. However now that point 4 is sorted, that's fine as you can just run the aircon permanently which cools the cabin AND the cars radiator.
All of the above is fixed - took 3 hours all in and was a stinking filthy pig of a job.
It still doesn't start and within 3 attempts of trying, the starter effectively dies but the lights don't and nor does the horn or instrument cluster.
So that leaves the starter motor - it can't be the alternator. The car will start if it has been left but is apparently worse in the warm weather. Now it's just a clicking solenoid you can hear, not even an attempt to turn the engine over - I have NEVER seen a new battery die that fast. When I've had duff batteries in the past, they've died slowly as has the speed of the starter motor, this is almost instant.
I don't think it's a fault with the engine as once it's running, it's perfect and pulls well in all gears and there's no smoke on start, tickover or under load.
Looks like i'll be sourcing a recon starter or removing and cleaning the existing one - unless you have any better suggestions.
edit: - found a 2nd hand starter off a low mileage car for 25 beer tokens delivered - at that price I'm happy with the gamble.
As a further moan .... given that people buy these things for first cars - WTF is the problem with sticking the fuse info / relay info INSIDE the relevant covers? Peugeot are cheapskate *!****! and anyone who buys one of these infernal things over a Micra of the same vintage is an idiot. Having had the time to dig through and examine the build quality tonight, I'm far from impressed with it.
Edited by UncFester on Monday 30th July 23:48
Old one out - new one in - 45 minutes dead. End result is a car that doesn't drain the battery DEAD whilst cranking slower and slower until stopping after 2 attempts. Put the old broken battery in and it gave a nice steady effort at starting but just not quite enough current left in it to start.
100% confident that when the new ( now recharging ) battery goes back in it will fire into life beautifully and reliably.
The owner of it lent me her hands for the duration of the job and it really does make it a MASSIVE amount easier.
1 Remove the battery.
2 Remove and unclip the various cables from the battery tray and remove it.
3 Unbolt the throttle linkage from the side of the airbox and remove the airbox.
4. Lift the diesel filter up and out of the way with pipes attached.
5. Unbolt the two starter wires from the starter motor.
6. Unbolt the 3 big allen head bolts holding the starter in - the bottom one is a PIG as the clutch cable and bracket are in the way.
7. Slide starter back (left) , then angle it face( pinion) out towards the radiator. Rotate it as needed and then slide it up the back of the radiator and out past the scuttle.
Refit IS a straight forward reversal of the above. No need to be under the car and despite what various google searches suggested - really not that bad a job to do.
Quite a bit later and quite a few restarts and all is well. Duff starter motor. Fully charged battery and it kicks into life like a goodun. Even with mainbeam, dipped beam, A/C and fan at speed 4 - 2 turns of the starter and it's alive. £23 well spent on a second hand starter.
100% confident that when the new ( now recharging ) battery goes back in it will fire into life beautifully and reliably.
The owner of it lent me her hands for the duration of the job and it really does make it a MASSIVE amount easier.
1 Remove the battery.
2 Remove and unclip the various cables from the battery tray and remove it.
3 Unbolt the throttle linkage from the side of the airbox and remove the airbox.
4. Lift the diesel filter up and out of the way with pipes attached.
5. Unbolt the two starter wires from the starter motor.
6. Unbolt the 3 big allen head bolts holding the starter in - the bottom one is a PIG as the clutch cable and bracket are in the way.
7. Slide starter back (left) , then angle it face( pinion) out towards the radiator. Rotate it as needed and then slide it up the back of the radiator and out past the scuttle.
Refit IS a straight forward reversal of the above. No need to be under the car and despite what various google searches suggested - really not that bad a job to do.
Quite a bit later and quite a few restarts and all is well. Duff starter motor. Fully charged battery and it kicks into life like a goodun. Even with mainbeam, dipped beam, A/C and fan at speed 4 - 2 turns of the starter and it's alive. £23 well spent on a second hand starter.
Edited by UncFester on Wednesday 1st August 23:36
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