Pete Waterman's "Making Tracks 3"

[48k]

Anyone else following the modelling of Making Tracks 3 - adding Milton Keynes station to their West Coast Main Line "Making Tracks 2" OO-scale model? The overall layout will be over 150 feet long, the station itself is 32 feet long. And the modelling is an astonishing level of detail, right down to plastic bags with litter in the station bins! Everything scratch built, catenery, the architecture, vehicles, the lot. The layout will be at Chester Cathedral in July and the public can control the trains via tablets, there is real time signalling and platform indicator boards. I've been following Railnuts on Facebook who produce a weekly video and keep their Facebook album updated with pictures and progress reports. Incredible stuff.

Edited by 48k on Monday 12th June 11:56

[Promised Land]

Will there be a picket line outside the cathedral and all the trains parked up and cancelled for added realism?

Simon George did something similar with a junction up north a few years ago.

[48k]

Well, it's done, and they have boxed it all up and taken it to Chester Cathedral. Looks very, very good. Exhibition runs from tomorrow until 2nd September.









Video covering the setup at the cathedral

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iUQZJRmwtE

40 mins long but quite interesting to see how they deal with the challenges and logistics of setting up such a big layout.

[droopsnoot]

I must try to get to this one, having missed the first two through not hearing about them until they were over.

[Speedy11]

I have only just noticed this thread. We are mostly ready for tomorrow. A few last minute tweaks are needed as always It has been quite a big task to get it all made in just over 8 months but it finally looks like how I envisaged it when we planning it late last year.

The layout is open everyday from 10am to 5pm except for Sundays (they do Churchy things then for some reason ) and the last running day is the 2nd September. Every visitor is more than welcome to have a drive of the trains just ask one of the volunteers, they will give you a controller and let you play.

If you have any questions just ask away.

[48k]

Speedy11 said:

If you have any questions just ask away.

Does Dave the miserable chippy ever cheer up?

Has the group decided on a favourite biscuit for the tea breaks (there seems to be a lot of research on this)?

Is Pete ever wrong?

Joking aside, as someone who lives just outside MK and is very familiar with the station it has been an absolute pleasure watching the progress on RailNuts and the YT videos, and some of the challenges and problem solving. The attention to detail is astonishing. I think you are doing stuff that has never been attempted before and it's very inspiring.

I saw on the latest vid there was a bit of remedial work needed on the catenary, but aside from that did everything get to Chester in one piece?

[Speedy11]

48k said:

Does Dave the miserable chippy ever cheer up?

Has the group decided on a favourite biscuit for the tea breaks (there seems to be a lot of research on this)?

Is Pete ever wrong?

Joking aside, as someone who lives just outside MK and is very familiar with the station it has been an absolute pleasure watching the progress on RailNuts and the YT videos, and some of the challenges and problem solving. The attention to detail is astonishing. I think you are doing stuff that has never been attempted before and it's very inspiring.

I saw on the latest vid there was a bit of remedial work needed on the catenary, but aside from that did everything get to Chester in one piece?

Dave is great, he just has his way of working and easily gets frustrated which doesn't always come across well on camera.

Currently we are favouring Lidl's cookies and Costco's chocolate brownies.

Pete.... well Pete can be forceful with his opinions but I often wear him down.

It took two van trips for everything to get the cathedral and it all arrived safely but it is only really 30 mins from Pete's so not far for it to travel, the catenary wasn't damaged just not quite finished.

Thanks, it has been a lot of work and it has taken over my life really over the past few months which whilst trying to run a small business has been a bit of a challenge. Really the layout needs another couple of months spending on it but we had a strict deadline which we couldn't miss, but yesterday we opened for the 1st day, we had a few little niggles in the 1st hour but after that most of the trains that left came back only real issues were the speed signs/axle counters which were too close and they kept derailing the stock and we had a short somewhere that stopped running for about 15 mins that which out to be the sleeper set.

[48k]

Speedy11 said:

48k said:

Does Dave the miserable chippy ever cheer up?

Has the group decided on a favourite biscuit for the tea breaks (there seems to be a lot of research on this)?

Is Pete ever wrong?

Joking aside, as someone who lives just outside MK and is very familiar with the station it has been an absolute pleasure watching the progress on RailNuts and the YT videos, and some of the challenges and problem solving. The attention to detail is astonishing. I think you are doing stuff that has never been attempted before and it's very inspiring.

I saw on the latest vid there was a bit of remedial work needed on the catenary, but aside from that did everything get to Chester in one piece?

Dave is great, he just has his way of working and easily gets frustrated which doesn't always come across well on camera.

Currently we are favouring Lidl's cookies and Costco's chocolate brownies.

Pete.... well Pete can be forceful with his opinions but I often wear him down.

It took two van trips for everything to get the cathedral and it all arrived safely but it is only really 30 mins from Pete's so not far for it to travel, the catenary wasn't damaged just not quite finished.

Thanks, it has been a lot of work and it has taken over my life really over the past few months which whilst trying to run a small business has been a bit of a challenge. Really the layout needs another couple of months spending on it but we had a strict deadline which we couldn't miss, but yesterday we opened for the 1st day, we had a few little niggles in the 1st hour but after that most of the trains that left came back only real issues were the speed signs/axle counters which were too close and they kept derailing the stock and we had a short somewhere that stopped running for about 15 mins that which out to be the sleeper set.

Great to hear there weren't many niggles and you got some good running in. Especially given how much of a nightmare the programming looked. Would be interested to hear how it is going with the public controlling the trains and if all the block detection, signalling and RFID events are working out as planned. Although the modelling is fantasic, being a software guy the geeky stuff is what I find most interesting.

[Speedy11]

48k said:

Great to hear there weren't many niggles and you got some good running in. Especially given how much of a nightmare the programming looked. Would be interested to hear how it is going with the public controlling the trains and if all the block detection, signalling and RFID events are working out as planned. Although the modelling is fantasic, being a software guy the geeky stuff is what I find most interesting.

So far so good. My code isn't pretty but does work

There are a few unique challenges with the layout compared with most exhibition layouts. Mainly with it being so large we can't have it all assembled before it gets to Chester as Pete's barn just isn't big enough. Using canbus does mean that we could do as much testing as possible without everything being connected or even have it connected in the correct order. It means for testing each baseboard effectively becomes its own layout.

The other consideration is downtime, once we opened on the Wednesday it has to keep running for 8 hours a day, 6 days a week for 6 weeks there isn't anytime for the layout to stop, it also has to cope with volunteers trying their best to break things. A single raspberry pi could run the whole layout but if anything goes wrong or something needs to be changed the whole things stops. This is why I went down the Arduino route, I would rather have lots of things doing one job each rather than one things doing everything that way for example if I need to reconfigure the signals it doesn't stop the rest of the layout from operating.

The only issue with the Arduino Canbus interface is they only have a 2 message buffer, making sure you don't miss any messages can become an issue when using WS2811 leds as they are relatively slow, an eps32 solves this as they have a much larger buffer but I find the libraries can be a little flaky so I have tried to avoid using them.

The RFID is currently working but the display boards aren't mainly because every time I try and sit down to finish the code I get pulled in another direction, fingers cross sometime today they will be finished and working


Forgot to say, if you're at Chester just ask for Phil and I can show you all the code/how it all works.

Edited by Speedy11 on Friday 28th July 08:06

[48k]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I had figured out who you were from the link in your profile but didn't want to reveal your real life identity.
I definitely think you went down the right route with the arduinos. And I think you made a comment in one of the videos that at the price they are, they are pretty much disposable if something gets damaged or goes wrong. And tackling the big problems by breaking them down in to smaller ones and effectively treating each board as a mini layout in its own right makes testing a lot easier like you say.
Don't think I can get up to Chester but will definitely be visiting MK as it is literally just down the road. Really looking forward to seeing the full end to end running. I assume people are going to have to have binoculars and walkie talkies just to coordinate everything

Edited by 48k on Friday 28th July 18:55

[Speedy11]

48k said:

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I had figured out who you were from the link in your profile but didn't want to reveal your real life identity.
I definitely think you went down the right route with the arduinos. And I think you made a comment in one of the videos that at the price they are, they are pretty much disposable if something gets damaged or goes wrong. And tackling the big problems by breaking them down in to smaller ones and effectively treating each board as a mini layout in its own right makes testing a lot easier like you say.
Don't think I can get up to Chester but will definitely be visiting MK as it is literally just down the road. Really looking forward to seeing the full end to end running. I assume people are going to have to have binoculars and walkie talkies just to coordinate everything

Edited by 48k on Friday 28th July 18:55

I think the show at MK is going to kill me but I'm not worrying about it until sometime next week. Current plan is lots of walkie talkies, different coloured hiviz depending on what line you are running and to give Pete a large sunflower/umbrella as if he is a tour guide so we can easily find him

On the Saturday night last year at the show the organisers took us all out for a meal and I casually asked how long is the hall and Mike had a quick think and said its about 175ft of space but by the time the space required for fire escapes etc it goes down to 153-155ft, a quick calc later I reckoned we could get 19 baseboards in and a few mins later we thought if we don't do it for this year it would never happen so a few hours and several drinks later we settled on 5/8 from Making Tracks 1, 8/8 from MK2 and 6/8 from MK3 to make 152ft.

Just for a guide to the size this is me from the other end when we measured the size last year at GETS.

[jet_noise]

Speedy11 said:

So far so good. My code isn't pretty but does work

There are a few unique challenges with the layout compared with most exhibition layouts. Mainly with it being so large we can't have it all assembled before it gets to Chester as Pete's barn just isn't big enough. Using canbus does mean that we could do as much testing as possible without everything being connected or even have it connected in the correct order. It means for testing each baseboard effectively becomes its own layout.

The other consideration is downtime, once we opened on the Wednesday it has to keep running for 8 hours a day, 6 days a week for 6 weeks there isn't anytime for the layout to stop, it also has to cope with volunteers trying their best to break things. A single raspberry pi could run the whole layout but if anything goes wrong or something needs to be changed the whole things stops. This is why I went down the Arduino route, I would rather have lots of things doing one job each rather than one things doing everything that way for example if I need to reconfigure the signals it doesn't stop the rest of the layout from operating.

The only issue with the Arduino Canbus interface is they only have a 2 message buffer, making sure you don't miss any messages can become an issue when using WS2811 leds as they are relatively slow, an eps32 solves this as they have a much larger buffer but I find the libraries can be a little flaky so I have tried to avoid using them.

The RFID is currently working but the display boards aren't mainly because every time I try and sit down to finish the code I get pulled in another direction, fingers cross sometime today they will be finished and working


Forgot to say, if you're at Chester just ask for Phil and I can show you all the code/how it all works.

Edited by Speedy11 on Friday 28th July 08:06

Is your hardware/software bespoke or do you use any of proprietary systems/modules?
I'm regressing to childhood on retirement and building an OO DC layout. I'm using MERG's CBUS system.

[48k]

What it needs is a Raildar-esque schematic web page where you can watch the real time movements on the whole layout.

[Speedy11]

jet_noise said:

Is your hardware/software bespoke or do you use any of proprietary systems/modules?
I'm regressing to childhood on retirement and building an OO DC layout. I'm using MERG's CBUS system.

As Megapoints is a sponsor we use his block detectors, servo and relay boards. We use a Roco z21 for DCC control mainly as it allows us to use cheap tablets for control so if they get dropped its not an issue. Everything else I have made mainly using Arduinos. I prefer to use my own stuff as it does what I want and if there are any problems or bugs in the code I can fix it where as using other peoples products leave you at their mercy. Again I don't like to use a computer to control it all as if it goes down or need something changing it will stop the whole layout (which is fine if you have lots of testing time which we don't have)

A couple of examples: Last year about a week before we opened they updated the z21 app, which completely broke it, the app just would not open, I had to roll back all the tablets but I forgot about Pete's phone which auto updated overnight. Which was a pain in the arse. It took about 4 separate updates over 2 weeks to fix the issue.

Another example yesterday a servo didn't move where as the relay for the frog did change so I know that message to change was sent on the network and partially received. So when the train went through it caused a short, but because its not my board or code I can't do anything about it except to hope it doesn't happen again.

The MERG stuff is great and works well but the hand controllers are awful to use and sometimes I feel they are making stuff but not actually using it to play trains.

48k said:

What it needs is a Raildar-esque schematic web page where you can watch the real time movements on the whole layout.

Following the trains electronically isn't an issue, more following the trains to stop an issue with derailing. But we will have experienced operators at GETS so that will hopefully help. The layout runs much better if you just leave the controls alone once the train has left, constantly fiddling is what causes the issues.

[48k]

Speedy11 said:

48k said:

What it needs is a Raildar-esque schematic web page where you can watch the real time movements on the whole layout.

Following the trains electronically isn't an issue, more following the trains to stop an issue with derailing. But we will have experienced operators at GETS so that will hopefully help. The layout runs much better if you just leave the controls alone once the train has left, constantly fiddling is what causes the issues.

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my post.

What **I** need is a Raildar-esque schematic web page where **I** can watch the real time movements on the whole layout from my home in MK and enjoy the layout without actually being there. The live webcam stuff is good but it doesn't show me actually what is going on.

Just another channel to engage with your audience. Whether it's useful to the operators would be a bi-product.

[jet_noise]

Speedy11 said:

jet_noise said:

Is your hardware/software bespoke or do you use any of proprietary systems/modules?
I'm regressing to childhood on retirement and building an OO DC layout. I'm using MERG's CBUS system.

As Megapoints is a sponsor we use his block detectors, servo and relay boards. We use a Roco z21 for DCC control mainly as it allows us to use cheap tablets for control so if they get dropped its not an issue. Everything else I have made mainly using Arduinos. I prefer to use my own stuff as it does what I want and if there are any problems or bugs in the code I can fix it where as using other peoples products leave you at their mercy. Again I don't like to use a computer to control it all as if it goes down or need something changing it will stop the whole layout (which is fine if you have lots of testing time which we don't have)

A couple of examples: Last year about a week before we opened they updated the z21 app, which completely broke it, the app just would not open, I had to roll back all the tablets but I forgot about Pete's phone which auto updated overnight. Which was a pain in the arse. It took about 4 separate updates over 2 weeks to fix the issue.

Another example yesterday a servo didn't move where as the relay for the frog did change so I know that message to change was sent on the network and partially received. So when the train went through it caused a short, but because its not my board or code I can't do anything about it except to hope it doesn't happen again.

The MERG stuff is great and works well but the hand controllers are awful to use and sometimes I feel they are making stuff but not actually using it to play trains.

48k said:

What it needs is a Raildar-esque schematic web page where you can watch the real time movements on the whole layout.

Following the trains electronically isn't an issue, more following the trains to stop an issue with derailing. But we will have experienced operators at GETS so that will hopefully help. The layout runs much better if you just leave the controls alone once the train has left, constantly fiddling is what causes the issues.

Good idea 48k. A webcam or two, er, too?

Nice to have a sponsor! Maybe even necessary for such an enterprise. Megapoints kit is good but pricey.
I can see the effectiveness of tablets, automation and DCC there.
I like a knob (oo, er, missus) for train control and again partly due to cost have plumped for JMRI. With entry/exit routing for cab selection and points. Servos as you do.
I would like to have designed more of my own stuff, have the skills, but it takes so long! Off the shelf kit is quicker. Allows me to take the time to learn the bits I don't know/am less dexterous at - track laying especially.

[48k]

jet_noise said:

Good idea 48k. A webcam or two, er, too?

The live webcams are here: https://railcam.uk/mt3/

[jet_noise]

48k said:

jet_noise said:

Good idea 48k. A webcam or two, er, too?

The live webcams are here: https://railcam.uk/mt3/

Thanks.
Self awarded whoosh parrot for Mr Noise

[Speedy11]

48k said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my post.

What **I** need is a Raildar-esque schematic web page where **I** can watch the real time movements on the whole layout from my home in MK and enjoy the layout without actually being there. The live webcam stuff is good but it doesn't show me actually what is going on.

Just another channel to engage with your audience. Whether it's useful to the operators would be a bi-product.

Haha, it is not a bad idea, and not that difficult to do really, all of the info is there just needs putting in a nice format. The problem as always is lack of time, not really doable for GETS but can possibly get it ready for Christmas. Plus you need to go to GETS, got to make sure the show makes a profit

jet_noise said:

Good idea 48k. A webcam or two, er, too?

Nice to have a sponsor! Maybe even necessary for such an enterprise. Megapoints kit is good but pricey.
I can see the effectiveness of tablets, automation and DCC there.
I like a knob (oo, er, missus) for train control and again partly due to cost have plumped for JMRI. With entry/exit routing for cab selection and points. Servos as you do.
I would like to have designed more of my own stuff, have the skills, but it takes so long! Off the shelf kit is quicker. Allows me to take the time to learn the bits I don't know/am less dexterous at - track laying especially.

Megapoints stuff works well, but because the layout is not really a normal/traditional layout I keep finding little bugs in the code (which Dave soon fixes). I found the issue with that point yesterday which has been causing problems, its related to the fact that the bay point repeatedly gets sent the same command over the coarse of the day and it slowly walked is way across. A new servo has appeared to have fixed it but a small change in the code would have not caused it to happen in the first place.

You soon get used to a tablet but there is something about having a tactile feel for control with either a knob or slider. But using tablets solves quite a few issues for us, mainly being that they are cheap (£35) so if a member of the public drops/breaks them it is not the end of the world.

Track laying is easy, just make sure you don't smack the rail with a hammer if using track pins (thanks Pete) so make sure you use a punch to drive them in. Ballasting is something you either love or hate but always leave it a few weeks/months so you can test all your trackwork/points as it is much easier to fix without the ballast being in the way.

[48k]

Speedy11 said:

Track laying is easy, just make sure you don't smack the rail with a hammer if using track pins (thanks Pete)