Megasquirt: true DIY?
Discussion
At some point in the future I'd like to ditch the distributor and set the car up with mapped ignition. At the same time I figured it would be a good opportunity to get rid of the AFM and 14CUX. I have nothing against the 14CUX, and in my car (an otherwise unmodified Chimaera 450), the AFM is probably not restrictive. I'm not after tuning the car out of its skin; I'd just like to bring the engine management system up to date.
Megasquirt is of great interest to me because of its flexibility and also because it can be bought in a variety of build stages from a box of components to a plug-compatible 14CUX replacement (I'm proficient with electrics and electronics). The other beauty of it is that it is heavily parameterised, so the tuning options should be virtually limitless. But that same flexibility is the thing that bothers me about it. Whilst I know my way around an engine and the electrics/electronics needed to run it, I don't know nearly enough to attempt to tune Megasquirt properly, not only in terms of driveability, economy etc. but also in terms of it being 'street legal' (ie. passing an MoT test and meeting emissions regulations).
I suppose by now there will be quite a few maps around that other owners have worked on that would be a good base (assuming said owners were happy to share them), but is there anyone out there who is 'expert' in mapping the installation?
Also, what are the ballpark costs for a Megasquirt installation (from a box of components to the V8 Developments 14CUX replacement kit with wiring, trigger wheel, coil packs, etc. etc)?
Megasquirt is of great interest to me because of its flexibility and also because it can be bought in a variety of build stages from a box of components to a plug-compatible 14CUX replacement (I'm proficient with electrics and electronics). The other beauty of it is that it is heavily parameterised, so the tuning options should be virtually limitless. But that same flexibility is the thing that bothers me about it. Whilst I know my way around an engine and the electrics/electronics needed to run it, I don't know nearly enough to attempt to tune Megasquirt properly, not only in terms of driveability, economy etc. but also in terms of it being 'street legal' (ie. passing an MoT test and meeting emissions regulations).
I suppose by now there will be quite a few maps around that other owners have worked on that would be a good base (assuming said owners were happy to share them), but is there anyone out there who is 'expert' in mapping the installation?
Also, what are the ballpark costs for a Megasquirt installation (from a box of components to the V8 Developments 14CUX replacement kit with wiring, trigger wheel, coil packs, etc. etc)?
The best thing to do is trawl through the MS forums http://www.megamanual.com/forums.htm and down load the trial tuner studio http://www.efianalytics.com/TunerStudio/ this will get you familiar with the options and settings.
I found fellow squirters
were more than happy to help with supplying maps and settings to help.
I found fellow squirters
were more than happy to help with supplying maps and settings to help.Edited by Meatball on Saturday 7th August 20:23
I did it x2 now, go to www.extraefi.co.uk loads on there diagrams, tuning etc.
Download the megamanual and read read and read more then things kinda make sense, get a laptop and load the software on there and have a play with the software.
There is loads of backup avilable and you will really notice the step forward
Download the megamanual and read read and read more then things kinda make sense, get a laptop and load the software on there and have a play with the software.
There is loads of backup avilable and you will really notice the step forward
Edited by neal1980 on Saturday 7th August 21:02
It seems difficult coming to it cold but it is intended to be DIY. Once you have done it you will look back on it and think it's easy to do it again. There is a little bit of forward planning that you need to do so as to reduce time off the road. Like sourcing your bracket to hold the induction pick up close to the trigger wheel - There is a very nice one but I don't know what the part number for it is.
Chose where the MS hardware goes. Mines safely away from the battery and risk of damp and interference from other wiring and relays etc down there.
Get some resistive spark plugs (otherwise interference is a problem)
Read the section about earths. We are looking at operating at very low voltages here so any potential differences (as in voltage differences) caused by different earthing points should be avoided.
Avoid Rover stuff - use Ford coil packs.
Don't forget it has a 'limp home' mode so it will run even if you haven't got it tuned yet. Once you have the software loaded onto your laptop you will be able to see exactly what's happening from the main screens but basically you are going for an air fuel ratio and adjusting a fuel table and spark advance table. The effect is instant on the engine but not permanent until you save it on the laptop and the MS. Oh and get yourself an old laptop cheap off ebay so it doesn't matter if you drop it etc but also it should have the old 9 pin serial port on the back which is compatible with the connection on the MS. Converters to USB's etc give problems in most (not all) cases.
Provided the rest of the engine (filters, plugs, cam, valves etc) is in good condition you will notice a big difference in idling, pick up and pull away and probably economy although the desire to take it through the gears is also increased so maybe not ;-)
Hope that helps a bit.
Chose where the MS hardware goes. Mines safely away from the battery and risk of damp and interference from other wiring and relays etc down there.
Get some resistive spark plugs (otherwise interference is a problem)
Read the section about earths. We are looking at operating at very low voltages here so any potential differences (as in voltage differences) caused by different earthing points should be avoided.
Avoid Rover stuff - use Ford coil packs.
Don't forget it has a 'limp home' mode so it will run even if you haven't got it tuned yet. Once you have the software loaded onto your laptop you will be able to see exactly what's happening from the main screens but basically you are going for an air fuel ratio and adjusting a fuel table and spark advance table. The effect is instant on the engine but not permanent until you save it on the laptop and the MS. Oh and get yourself an old laptop cheap off ebay so it doesn't matter if you drop it etc but also it should have the old 9 pin serial port on the back which is compatible with the connection on the MS. Converters to USB's etc give problems in most (not all) cases.
Provided the rest of the engine (filters, plugs, cam, valves etc) is in good condition you will notice a big difference in idling, pick up and pull away and probably economy although the desire to take it through the gears is also increased so maybe not ;-)
Hope that helps a bit.
I installed a Megasquirt from Extraefi on my Chim 400 ealier this year, but just running ignition at present, I will shortly do fueling when I get some time. Am very pleased with the reults so far.
The best resource on converting a rover v8 engine to run from a megasquirt is on the landrover 4x4 forums, loads of guys there have done the conversion, and there are some very knowledgeable experts there.
Check out this thread, but be prepared to send several hours reading..
http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=15317&...
Andy
The best resource on converting a rover v8 engine to run from a megasquirt is on the landrover 4x4 forums, loads of guys there have done the conversion, and there are some very knowledgeable experts there.
Check out this thread, but be prepared to send several hours reading..
http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=15317&...
Andy
Use the VW active coil packs 
Plan how you want to wire it up and what inputs/outputs you wish to use, otherwise it's a bit of a chicken & egg situation whether you order one built or build it yourself.
If you reiterate between planning the wiring + sensors and what can be implemented inside the MS you will arrive at the 'paper' solution that you want. Biggest pitfall is reworking / modding because you got it wrong in the first place IMHO.
Plan how you want to wire it up and what inputs/outputs you wish to use, otherwise it's a bit of a chicken & egg situation whether you order one built or build it yourself.
If you reiterate between planning the wiring + sensors and what can be implemented inside the MS you will arrive at the 'paper' solution that you want. Biggest pitfall is reworking / modding because you got it wrong in the first place IMHO.
I would just use the ford coil packs, plenty around and dont seem to give any bother. And there so cheap you can afford to stock plenty but Ive had no failures using mine in about 3 years now.
Spend tell me more about these coilpacks you recommend...is there a benefit??
In fact I have an original rover V8 coilpack, listed it on ebay as I was using ford didnt even make 99p!
Spend tell me more about these coilpacks you recommend...is there a benefit??
In fact I have an original rover V8 coilpack, listed it on ebay as I was using ford didnt even make 99p!
Edited by neal1980 on Tuesday 10th August 17:02
Thanks for the input so far, gents, there's plenty to consider (and read). Of course, before asking the question I'd already done a bit of research. After looking at the demo version of the tuning software though, it's only confirmed my concern: without knowing what all the parameters in there do - they're not all self-explanatory - how do you turn it all into a map?
WRT VW active coil packs: is the benefit there that they can be used without an EDIS module? If so, Ford coil packs and an MS with Bosch spark drivers would seem a better* option...?
* I'm from Yorkshire. For 'better' read 'cheaper'!
WRT VW active coil packs: is the benefit there that they can be used without an EDIS module? If so, Ford coil packs and an MS with Bosch spark drivers would seem a better* option...?
* I'm from Yorkshire. For 'better' read 'cheaper'!
Cider Andy said:
Thanks for the input so far, gents, there's plenty to consider (and read). Of course, before asking the question I'd already done a bit of research. After looking at the demo version of the tuning software though, it's only confirmed my concern: without knowing what all the parameters in there do - they're not all self-explanatory - how do you turn it all into a map?
WRT VW active coil packs: is the benefit there that they can be used without an EDIS module? If so, Ford coil packs and an MS with Bosch spark drivers would seem a better* option...?
* I'm from Yorkshire. For 'better' read 'cheaper'!
Hi Andy,WRT VW active coil packs: is the benefit there that they can be used without an EDIS module? If so, Ford coil packs and an MS with Bosch spark drivers would seem a better* option...?
* I'm from Yorkshire. For 'better' read 'cheaper'!
if you buy from myself then all the parameters are sorted for you. All you need to do is install it and then start tuning it using the guides and videos Ive done, as well as the manuals Ive written. There is a lot of reading to be done if you want to tune it yourself, but thats all part of the fun in my opinion.
I've been involved with MS for a long time now, I wrote the original MS1-Extra code with James, I wrote the MS-Extra manuals, designed a load of the circuits, written pages and pages of help files, etc, etc. So if you need any help what so ever let me know, if I havent covered it in a help file then I will do one for it
The only word of advise I can really share is just be careful about where you buy it from. I can forward you a whole host of emails I receive from people who have bought from EBay (got one today in fact), and a few other companies, who now have no backup and an ECU thats of no use to them because they thought they were buying one thing and ended up with something different. Just stick to the recommended list and you wont go wrong,
cheers
Phil
You can drive coil packs directly from the ecu but then you need Ignition drivers installed, much simpler to have them in the coil pack (active coil packs). If they fail you only have to replace the coil pack, not source compatible drivers (which aren't cheap BTW) and have them worked into your ecu. Just seems a win/win reducing stuff in the ecu, complexity / heat / load wise. VW / audi / skoda 
have a range of suitable coil packs for their 4 cyl engines & a pair works well, all the KMS installs come with them as standard.
have a range of suitable coil packs for their 4 cyl engines & a pair works well, all the KMS installs come with them as standard.I guess its horses for courses as most upgrades are.
I dont suppose anyone would like to spec my megasquirt order for me.
Ive only bought the trigger wheel so far
My engine is being rebuilt with low comp forged pistons to take heavy nitrous abuse but i plan to fit twin turbos at a later date (maybe 18 months time).
The car will be used for all the usual commuting, tvr runs and meetings and a lot of drag racing events.
I had heard something about benefits of having the megasuirt with in built coil drivers being able to build turbo pressures for start line launches but thats all i know ???
What would you megasquirt gurus recommend please?
I dont suppose anyone would like to spec my megasquirt order for me.
Ive only bought the trigger wheel so far
My engine is being rebuilt with low comp forged pistons to take heavy nitrous abuse but i plan to fit twin turbos at a later date (maybe 18 months time).
The car will be used for all the usual commuting, tvr runs and meetings and a lot of drag racing events.
I had heard something about benefits of having the megasuirt with in built coil drivers being able to build turbo pressures for start line launches but thats all i know ???
What would you megasquirt gurus recommend please?
Hi all,
just to answer a few questions:
Ignition coils: The spark drivers I use are Bosch components, these can directly fire all sorts of coils, including the Ford style (which I recommend to use). I started using these drivers 3-4 years ago and up to now Ive had one fail. The failure was due to it being in a Land Rover that went under water and the ECU got a little wet, well, it was full of water
Other than that Ive had no failures with them.
The advantages of EDIS and the VW coils (or any coil with a built in ignitor) is that the noisey bit is kept out of the ECU, which is a great idea in my opinion. This is especially true on cars like the TVR, etc, as bad grounding is a great source for noise.
Having said all that, as long as you follow some pretty easy wiring rules and fit the correct plugs, suppressors, etc, then you wont get issues even if you have the bosch drivers in the ECU, 99% of the ECUs I sell directly fire the coils without EDIS modules or the VW style coils and as long as they are wired correctly they are fine.
EDIS disadvantages are that youll need an extra box under the bonnet (The EDIS module) but these are cheap enough and very reliable, Ive had the odd one fail with limitting RPM, none have completely stopped working. Another disadvantage is that you can not cut spark output with an EDIS module, so you will lose rev limitting via spark, that can only be acheived by cutting fuel, but its no big issue.
The VW coils have been very unreliable in the past, but these issues were fixed by VW some 10 years ago from what I understand, and now they are a very good unit.
Advantages of these are that theres no extra module to fit but the coils are a little bigger, I also believe that heat can cause them to fail, but as long as they are not directly over the exhausts then I dont think its a big issue.
My prefered method of all of these are the LS-2 COPs, these have a built in ignitor and as they only fire one plug these are the best option in my opinion, but they are not cheap and they need a bit more work to fit:
just to answer a few questions:
Ignition coils: The spark drivers I use are Bosch components, these can directly fire all sorts of coils, including the Ford style (which I recommend to use). I started using these drivers 3-4 years ago and up to now Ive had one fail. The failure was due to it being in a Land Rover that went under water and the ECU got a little wet, well, it was full of water
Other than that Ive had no failures with them. The advantages of EDIS and the VW coils (or any coil with a built in ignitor) is that the noisey bit is kept out of the ECU, which is a great idea in my opinion. This is especially true on cars like the TVR, etc, as bad grounding is a great source for noise.
Having said all that, as long as you follow some pretty easy wiring rules and fit the correct plugs, suppressors, etc, then you wont get issues even if you have the bosch drivers in the ECU, 99% of the ECUs I sell directly fire the coils without EDIS modules or the VW style coils and as long as they are wired correctly they are fine.
EDIS disadvantages are that youll need an extra box under the bonnet (The EDIS module) but these are cheap enough and very reliable, Ive had the odd one fail with limitting RPM, none have completely stopped working. Another disadvantage is that you can not cut spark output with an EDIS module, so you will lose rev limitting via spark, that can only be acheived by cutting fuel, but its no big issue.
The VW coils have been very unreliable in the past, but these issues were fixed by VW some 10 years ago from what I understand, and now they are a very good unit.
Advantages of these are that theres no extra module to fit but the coils are a little bigger, I also believe that heat can cause them to fail, but as long as they are not directly over the exhausts then I dont think its a big issue.
My prefered method of all of these are the LS-2 COPs, these have a built in ignitor and as they only fire one plug these are the best option in my opinion, but they are not cheap and they need a bit more work to fit:
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