Sequential Fuel and Ignition on 5.0L
Discussion
Just thought Id post some pics of what Im doing.
Sequential Fueling (can't really see that
) and sequential spark using LS2 (Yukon) coils with built in ignitors, these are very powerful kiddies! Crank signal is 36-1 have yet to finish the cam signal using an old distributor (supplied by Rob) and a hall sensor for the ECU to work out where the engine is.
All controlled by an MS3 ECU (MegaSquirt)
Will be a month or so to get it running, as I want to replace the headers with some shiney stainless ones before too soon.
Sequential Fueling (can't really see that
) and sequential spark using LS2 (Yukon) coils with built in ignitors, these are very powerful kiddies! Crank signal is 36-1 have yet to finish the cam signal using an old distributor (supplied by Rob) and a hall sensor for the ECU to work out where the engine is.All controlled by an MS3 ECU (MegaSquirt)
Will be a month or so to get it running, as I want to replace the headers with some shiney stainless ones before too soon.
Standard TVR 5.0L internally from a Chimera, I've removed the trumpets and blended the base.
Plenum is a siemese that I made from two plenums:
then I polished it a lot:
Threw the Lucas away before I fitted the engine to the cobra and started with an MS1 ECU, then an MS2 and now an MS3 as Im heavily involved with MS, co-wrote the MS1-Extra code with James, wrote the manuals for MS1-extra, MS2-extra, etc.
Engine was wasted spark, using the Ford coil packs and a 36-1 crank.
Now its sequential fuel and coils, using the LS2 cops. (One coil per plug) To be honest the ignition isn't going to give me anything as wasted spark has loads of time to charge the coils, unlike a single coil (distributor) which can't fully charge a coil at high rpm. Im hoping sequential fuel may give me some more low down torque, but I have to do all this so I can test MS3 before its released and as I sell it all I have to have experience with it.
Injectors are 32Lb iirc, Bosch items.
Future plan is to fit one of Robs Stealth cams, but need to get this running first.
Phil
Plenum is a siemese that I made from two plenums:
then I polished it a lot:
Threw the Lucas away before I fitted the engine to the cobra and started with an MS1 ECU, then an MS2 and now an MS3
as Im heavily involved with MS, co-wrote the MS1-Extra code with James, wrote the manuals for MS1-extra, MS2-extra, etc.Engine was wasted spark, using the Ford coil packs and a 36-1 crank.
Now its sequential fuel and coils, using the LS2 cops. (One coil per plug) To be honest the ignition isn't going to give me anything as wasted spark has loads of time to charge the coils, unlike a single coil (distributor) which can't fully charge a coil at high rpm. Im hoping sequential fuel may give me some more low down torque, but I have to do all this so I can test MS3 before its released and as I sell it all I have to have experience with it.
Injectors are 32Lb iirc, Bosch items.
Future plan is to fit one of Robs Stealth cams, but need to get this running first.
Phil
When you made the plenum, did you fit a divider between the two banks? I only say that because I know of testing that was done on these where no divider was used, and it was shown quite conclusively that the twin setup can easily perform worse than the standard as a result of the two opposing streams of air impacting in the middle of the plenum hence killing the momentum of the intake charge.
Its certainly looks the part anyway!
Its certainly looks the part anyway!
Hi, I have heard that too, I haven't done that and I have concidered it, but as one throttle opens normally and the other doesnt do anything untill 30-40% throttle I have been reluctant to add a divider.
I have to be honest I didnt notice any power gains from it, but throttle responce improved no end, as you would expect.
Id like to know more about a divider, maybe I just need to have a play and see what I can do.
I wonder if its needed more when there are trumpets? Without them there will be more space for the air to even itself out maybe,
cheers
Phil
I have to be honest I didnt notice any power gains from it, but throttle responce improved no end, as you would expect.
Id like to know more about a divider, maybe I just need to have a play and see what I can do.
I wonder if its needed more when there are trumpets? Without them there will be more space for the air to even itself out maybe,
cheers
Phil
Edited by daxtojeiro on Tuesday 26th January 20:11
So, Dax, is MS3 now available through outlets such as Trigger-Wheels.Com? As you're aware, there's a lot of confusion as to which ECU to opt for and great varience in cost. Most of those considering installing such are of novice level (me) and are concerned about installation, technical back-up, who can do the mapping and a whole host of other running issues that some seem to encounter (cold start etc). Just give us a quick run down on the advantages of MS3 would ya please. A package with all instruction/wiring diagrams/diagnostics etc would one big selling point.
Hi there,
as far as Im aware trigger wheels only sells the microsquirt. Im not going to slag that off on here but it was designed for bike engines, it can only control 2 spark outputs and isn't really suitable for a car unless you want to go EDIS in my opinion. It cant have tacho outputs or fan control added to it and its not cheaper than an MS2 using a V3 board, which has all the advantages.
I've only ever sold the V3 board, which in my opinion is the only board worth using as it is expandable, future proof and very easy to fix if it all goes wrong, which is rare I have to say. It will also be compatable with the MS3's too, as the MS3 is simply a new daughter board that plugs into it.
I sell MS1s, MS2s and will sell the MS3 when its available.
Basically the MS3 will be a more money than the MS2 without many more functions in its basic form. If you then add the cost of an MS3X board (expansion board) you can have sequential fuel and or sequential ignition on a V8. (MS2 can already do sequential fuel and ignition on a 4cy, semi sequential on a 6 or 8) Other than that an MS2 is just as good and a lot cheaper, I don't even think its more accurate, as the MS2 is up to the theoretical speed of 0.67uS control of the injectors and 0.1deg acurate spark timing. Most of the MS3 features are from MS2 as well.
One thing that MS3 has is an SD card for datalogging and it can log at a very high rate, but I don't feel tats going to warant the extra cost, in my opinion.
It also has a lot more outputs and inputs if you add the expansion board, MS1 and MS2 have a few, but MS3 with an MS3X will have loads. I've a feeling an MS3 with an MS3X is going to cost nearly twice that of an MS2-Extra
Phil
as far as Im aware trigger wheels only sells the microsquirt. Im not going to slag that off on here but it was designed for bike engines, it can only control 2 spark outputs and isn't really suitable for a car unless you want to go EDIS in my opinion. It cant have tacho outputs or fan control added to it and its not cheaper than an MS2 using a V3 board, which has all the advantages.
I've only ever sold the V3 board, which in my opinion is the only board worth using as it is expandable, future proof and very easy to fix if it all goes wrong, which is rare I have to say. It will also be compatable with the MS3's too, as the MS3 is simply a new daughter board that plugs into it.
I sell MS1s, MS2s and will sell the MS3 when its available.
Basically the MS3 will be a more money than the MS2 without many more functions in its basic form. If you then add the cost of an MS3X board (expansion board) you can have sequential fuel and or sequential ignition on a V8. (MS2 can already do sequential fuel and ignition on a 4cy, semi sequential on a 6 or 8) Other than that an MS2 is just as good and a lot cheaper, I don't even think its more accurate, as the MS2 is up to the theoretical speed of 0.67uS control of the injectors and 0.1deg acurate spark timing. Most of the MS3 features are from MS2 as well.
One thing that MS3 has is an SD card for datalogging and it can log at a very high rate, but I don't feel tats going to warant the extra cost, in my opinion.
It also has a lot more outputs and inputs if you add the expansion board, MS1 and MS2 have a few, but MS3 with an MS3X will have loads. I've a feeling an MS3 with an MS3X is going to cost nearly twice that of an MS2-Extra
Phil
Blimey! So if you want sequential fuelling (as seems to be advocated for the RV8 lately) you need MS3 with an X board. Feel this needs a chat through and me being TOLD what I need. No doubt it'll be counter to someones elses solution though. It's all a stab into the darkness for the nit witted amongst us.
I have to be honest, the gains from bank to sequential don't really look as if they are going to be great, but as I've not done it yet I could be wrong.
The 4cy guys are finding slightly better idle and tip in responce improvements with highly strug motors. This we can do with MS2 on 4cy engines. We can also do semi seq on 8cy using MS2. So the difference between semi and fully may be even less. But I can't say if it is or isnt right now.
the sequential ignition will give me nothing at all as the dwell time is plenty on a V8 in wasted spark, its distributor based setups where you gain from wasted spark dwell times. But as the MS3X board doesnt drive coils directly (low powered outputs) I had to use COPs with built in ignitors and the LS2 ones are the best around apparently, for the cash.
If your intersted I've written some note on sequential here:
http://www.extraefi.co.uk/sequential_fuel.html
Phil
The 4cy guys are finding slightly better idle and tip in responce improvements with highly strug motors. This we can do with MS2 on 4cy engines. We can also do semi seq on 8cy using MS2. So the difference between semi and fully may be even less. But I can't say if it is or isnt right now.
the sequential ignition will give me nothing at all as the dwell time is plenty on a V8 in wasted spark, its distributor based setups where you gain from wasted spark dwell times. But as the MS3X board doesnt drive coils directly (low powered outputs) I had to use COPs with built in ignitors and the LS2 ones are the best around apparently, for the cash.
If your intersted I've written some note on sequential here:
http://www.extraefi.co.uk/sequential_fuel.html
Phil
Edited by daxtojeiro on Wednesday 27th January 13:54
daxtojeiro said:
I have to be honest, the gains from bank to sequential don't really look as if they are going to be great, but as I've not done it yet I could be wrong...
Phil
Phil, Phil
It sounds as though you'll be changing from MS2 to MS3 in the future; if you happen to do before and after dyno runs, would you be so kind as to post the print-outs here?
Did you work up the curves for your Ford V8 from zero or did you use someone else's experience to base your set-up on?
As far as I'm aware, being able to draw on the experience of others via the power of the internet is one of the great advantages the MS system has to offer.
How are you mating the RV8 upper and Ford lower plenums?
B.
Slow M said:
daxtojeiro said:
I have to be honest, the gains from bank to sequential don't really look as if they are going to be great, but as I've not done it yet I could be wrong...
Phil
Phil, Phil
It sounds as though you'll be changing from MS2 to MS3 in the future; if you happen to do before and after dyno runs, would you be so kind as to post the print-outs here?
Did you work up the curves for your Ford V8 from zero or did you use someone else's experience to base your set-up on?
As far as I'm aware, being able to draw on the experience of others via the power of the internet is one of the great advantages the MS system has to offer.
How are you mating the RV8 upper and Ford lower plenums?
B.
theres no Ford parts on this, its a RV8 based TVR engine, sorry if I didnt make that clear.
I've grown up with MS, I wrote the MS1-extra code with James, wrote loads of the manuals, etc, etc, I run www.extraefi.co.uk as well so tuning it wasnt an issue.
To be honest Ive sold 5-600 MegaSquirts and tuning isn't usually an issue for customers as the tuning software is utterly superb, datalogging and off-line tuning is second to none. Its not hard, you simply follow a few instructions and away you go, you will need a wideband lambda though.
There are also a few people fitting and tuning MSs, Rob from V8 developments does them for example.
See here for some help stuff:
http://www.extraefi.co.uk/support.htm
have a read of the stuff in yellow
Phil
Looks good Phil
I've done the sequential thing and it's well worth having for removing "rough edges" from the performance. You'll get little to no more top-end power if your results follow mine, but emissions control and economy should be substantially improved, and I found a small improvement in throttle response.
Shame I don't have a better picture with the engine as it is now, but it seems we're thinking along similar lines - I would very much like to compare notes at some point.
I tried the modded dizzy as a cam sensor and in the end used a scheme based on the P38 (Thor engined) Rangie.
I've done the sequential thing and it's well worth having for removing "rough edges" from the performance. You'll get little to no more top-end power if your results follow mine, but emissions control and economy should be substantially improved, and I found a small improvement in throttle response.
Shame I don't have a better picture with the engine as it is now, but it seems we're thinking along similar lines - I would very much like to compare notes at some point.
I tried the modded dizzy as a cam sensor and in the end used a scheme based on the P38 (Thor engined) Rangie.
Edited by dnb on Wednesday 3rd February 21:57
Edited by dnb on Wednesday 3rd February 22:01
dnb said:
Looks good Phil
I've done the sequential thing and it's well worth having for removing "rough edges" from the performance. You'll get little to no more top-end power if your results follow mine, but emissions control and economy should be substantially improved, and I found a small improvement in throttle response.
Shame I don't have a better picture with the engine as it is now, but it seems we're thinking along similar lines - I would very much like to compare notes at some point.
I tried the modded dizzy as a cam sensor and in the end used a scheme based on the P38 (Thor engined) Rangie.
Hi, I've done the sequential thing and it's well worth having for removing "rough edges" from the performance. You'll get little to no more top-end power if your results follow mine, but emissions control and economy should be substantially improved, and I found a small improvement in throttle response.
Shame I don't have a better picture with the engine as it is now, but it seems we're thinking along similar lines - I would very much like to compare notes at some point.
I tried the modded dizzy as a cam sensor and in the end used a scheme based on the P38 (Thor engined) Rangie.
Edited by dnb on Wednesday 3rd February 21:57
Edited by dnb on Wednesday 3rd February 22:01
yeah, I dont expect to get any more performance, but its something I've always been interested in doing. I think the main gains come from highly strung 4cy engines as far as sequential goes. Its still a good project though. That intake looks cool, does it have one throttle plate for 4cy or are they linked?
Id like to do something different with mine next. Maybe ITBs again
Modded dizzy will work with the MS, I have a hall sensor going on it so I'll get a lovely 12V signal I hope. If I make it 50% duty cycle then the MS can work out what cylinder it will be on during cranking straight away (after the missing tooth) so starting should be great
Phil
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