Oh no not another Cerb refurb ...
Discussion
<LONG POST ALERT>!!
Hi everyone. I¡m a longterm pistonheads visitor and have been a Cerb 4.2 owner for a few years now (albeit with a 3 year break in the middle before finding and buying her back from Byff). This is however possibly my first ever post! So .. erm .. hi !
I am currently planning a refurb/rebuild of the Cerb (hopefully starting in December) and was planning to use this thread to update progress, share findings and obviously ask for lots of help/advice.
Before I start ... I understand this is a public forum but would really appreciate it if people would not turn the thread into a debate on whether a modified TVR is a TVR etc. I am not posting this thread for approval or lack of but because a) it may interest people, b it will hopefully get me some support from people who have trodden this route before; and c) it may inspire or provide information for those who wish to do similar in the future.
Hope the above does not come across as arsey/arrogant but hoping people will respect it - I'm more than happy to have those conversations on a separate thread or by PM/email if you wish
.
Ok with that out of the way this is what I have planned:
- Body Off Chassis Refurb & Respray - Ive read a lot of what other people have done on here and have decided that this is the way to go. I¡¦m not planning on ever selling the Cerb so I want to do it once and do it properly. Having researched a lot of the chassis treatments available and various pitfalls/shortcomings I have decided it will be body off, weld in replacement tubes and then hot dip galvanise. I know a few people have commented that the hot dip can cause chassis warp, but I could not find any examples of this actually happening on a Cerb and a number of examples of it being successfully so I am going to take the risk.
- Replacement front seats - I know there are many who think the original Cerb seats (i.e. not the Tuscan-style seats) are perfectly adequate, but having tracked the car a few times and undertaken numerous continental road trips I find myself was sloshing around in the seat (and I am no stick insect) so figured a more enclosed seat with higher thigh supports and bolsters is the way forward.
- Windscreen wipers and washers - These have always been a major bugbear and a regular source of mockery from friends (even got mentioned in my best mans speech) and I am determined to find a way to improve them. They stick when the screen is anything other than soaking, they are clunky, and they sit too high up the windscreen when parked (one reason why wife doesnt enjoy the passenger experience so much she cant see out the window properly ļ). I am planning a replacement wiper motor and modified wiper arms with low profile blades to set neatly along the bottom of the screen. I also previously replaced the washer jet pipes that are fastened to the wiper arms with a jet positioned on the windscreen scuttle. This was a very successful mod but I plan to better it by adding a second jet and improving the washer pump.
- Brakes - Not sure what conversion to go for yet (might just be the separate bells to enable use of a wider range of disks) but the brakes will be upgraded.
- Engine conversion - I am planning to drop in an LS3 (sounds so simple when its put like that ļ) mated to TKO 600 gearbox. I have read about the experiences of others who have gone down the LS route. There have been a lot of different paths taken but after weighing up the options I have decided on this.
Rationale for choice of engine/box:
o Higher output in stock form than previous LSs will hopefully mean a more reliable platform to start from. I may add to it over time (hence gearbox selection) but although I am after more power its reliability (and easier servicing esp abroad) that I am looking for.
o I am not sure whether a pure LS3 has been put in a Cerb yet (couldn¡¦t find one on here). I know there are a few LS1, 6 and 2s that have been done and some have had LS3 bits (heads, intakes, throttle bodies etc) added. However the unit size is supposed to be the same for the LS3 as these other LS units so it has a reasonable chance of fitting.
o Gearbox options I considered were a) uprated T5, b) T56 or c) TKO600. I believe the T5 is more of a pain to mate to the LS and that the T56 is v heavy and is a tight fit requiring chassis mods to get the engine far back. Downsides to this selection are that I am yet to get to the bottom of how involved matching the prop, diff and driveshaft would be (this is an area I need some help on), obviously the T5 would fit straight to these existing components and the TKO is a 5-speed as opposed to the T56s 6.
Other thoughts/challenges/questions:
- I am planning to use the GM harness, ECU and the Drive By Wire throttle (modified to fit the Cerb and to provide the long throttle pedal travel we have grown to love on the Cerb). I intend to retain the existing gauges and instruments so this will be one challenge to tap these into the new harness (and presumably gearbox). I am not particular fazed by the electrics but it will depend on being able to get hold of wiring diagrams for the Cerb and the LS.
- A few posts I have read have suggested the TKO will be a good fit and will bring the gearstick up in the right place whilst allowing the engine to be as far back as possible in the bay. It has been suggested on one thread (by Omerta/Don I think) that having the stick in the ¡§most forward position¡¨ will bring the stick up in the right place while allowing 10mm gap to the firewall. From looking at the Tremec data, this would be the 7¡¨ position which is not ¡§out of the box¡¨ and I think needs to be specced at purchase time. Can anyone confirm this is the correct position and that 10mm to the firewall is reasonable?
- It was also suggested that the TKO allows sufficient space to run 3¡¨ pipes with the LS (ie leaves sufficient space between the chassis and the box/bellhousing). What I cant work out is whether this will work with the standard LS headers or whether something slimline/custom would be required.
- If I go with the TKO, what options do I have with the prop, diff and drive shaft? Do I need to replace all 3? If I got a custom made prop to fit the box and the diff would the stock 4.2 diff handle the increased output or does that need to be uprated, and what to? Will the drive shaft need to be uprated, and what to?
- There are a number of aftermarket engine mounts out there but I have not worked out which to go with yet. Does anyone have any suggestions (prefereably with suppliers/part numbers )?
- I will probs go with some uprated CAMs at the time of fitting to lift the power to between 480-500 ¡V the GM hot cams are one option but I am led to believe there are better options out there with more power without destroying the feel too much. I do want the thing to be everyday driveable (although it wont be) as well as trackable etc.
- Obviously this setup will need to be mapped (I believe there is a factory map provided with the engine). Does anyone have recommendations for engineers to do this? I am based in Newcastle but could trailer the car if necessary.
- I am not intending to introduce traction control at this stage but if its too much of a monster for my driving abililties (or my concentration levels) then I may retro fit.
- I am assuming that the air con pump that comes with the LS accessories will be fit with the existing Cerb air con system? Not looked into this yet. Anyone got any info on this?
- Cerb wipers have a longer throw than most cars (170 degrees as opposed to 110). I am looking at getting a used BMW wiper unit but gearing it differently to provide the required swing. I couldnt find any record on here of this having been done before so if anyone knows I¡¦d be interested. It may be possible to not regear the motor itself but to use a different offset on the actual wiper arms to achieve the same effect needs some further investigation.
- I reckon finding seats is going to be a challenge as there isnt much width between the doors and the transmission tunnel. If anyone has successfully fitted aftermarket seats Id be interested in knowing what you put in there. Once I have measured up I will be doing a bit of research in this area and will report back in case it is of interest.
- Suspension - has already been uprated although was about 2 years ago. I cant remember off the top of my head what was put on there. It may have been Gaz ¡V but I know I considered Nitrons at one point. I will need to check this out and then decide whether it needs further upgrade.
Order of events:
The order I intend to approach this is as follows (any fundamental flaws please let me know):
- purchase engine and box;
- purchase any suspension and brake upgrades;
- identify and purchase seats;
- remove AJP and T5;
- mate engine and box and fit in engine bay to position engine and transmission mounts (tack them in place for now)
- measure up for new prop/diff/driveshaft and purchase where appropriate;
- strip car interior and send of for retrim
- body lift (identify all fuel lines, brake lines and other ancillaries etc that need replacing and purchase);
- chassis media blast, repair (replace rotten tubes and secure engine mounts) and hot dip galvanise;
- body shell prepared (including mods for wipers, washer jets etc);
- chassis returned and built up (inc polybushes, brake upgrades/suspension upgrades etc);
- bodyshell refitted
- respray,
- fit new heatshields etc
- engine fitted including mods to drive by wire throttle, engine electrics and tapping into original loom;
- initial engine start test;
- interior refitted;
- car trailered tuners for remap;
- initial trouble shooting;
Much respect to those who have already successfully done this (Steve Heath, BoostedLS1, Jellison to name but a few). I know that a few of these guys are doing this as a business. I have decided to do this myself for a few reasons: Firstly I want a project/challenge (I think this is certainly it!!). Secondly I want to be able to maintain this myself in future and so by doing it myself feel that will give me the intimate knowledge of how it is put together. Thirdly I have the space and a 2-post lift, tools etc at my disposal so would be good to put them to some use!!
However I really would appreciate input from some of these experts so if they would prefer any of their trade secrets not to be shared publicly I¡¦d respect that and could always discuss over email/PM/phone.
Finally if anyone has any other constructive tips, things to watch out for or other improvements (i.e. remote resevoirs, relocating accessories etc) that I should be looking at whilst I am in there then please feel free to share them with me
.
Thanks for reading
Rich
Hi everyone. I¡m a longterm pistonheads visitor and have been a Cerb 4.2 owner for a few years now (albeit with a 3 year break in the middle before finding and buying her back from Byff). This is however possibly my first ever post! So .. erm .. hi !
I am currently planning a refurb/rebuild of the Cerb (hopefully starting in December) and was planning to use this thread to update progress, share findings and obviously ask for lots of help/advice.
Before I start ... I understand this is a public forum but would really appreciate it if people would not turn the thread into a debate on whether a modified TVR is a TVR etc. I am not posting this thread for approval or lack of but because a) it may interest people, b it will hopefully get me some support from people who have trodden this route before; and c) it may inspire or provide information for those who wish to do similar in the future.
Hope the above does not come across as arsey/arrogant but hoping people will respect it - I'm more than happy to have those conversations on a separate thread or by PM/email if you wish
. Ok with that out of the way this is what I have planned:
- Body Off Chassis Refurb & Respray - Ive read a lot of what other people have done on here and have decided that this is the way to go. I¡¦m not planning on ever selling the Cerb so I want to do it once and do it properly. Having researched a lot of the chassis treatments available and various pitfalls/shortcomings I have decided it will be body off, weld in replacement tubes and then hot dip galvanise. I know a few people have commented that the hot dip can cause chassis warp, but I could not find any examples of this actually happening on a Cerb and a number of examples of it being successfully so I am going to take the risk.
- Replacement front seats - I know there are many who think the original Cerb seats (i.e. not the Tuscan-style seats) are perfectly adequate, but having tracked the car a few times and undertaken numerous continental road trips I find myself was sloshing around in the seat (and I am no stick insect) so figured a more enclosed seat with higher thigh supports and bolsters is the way forward.
- Windscreen wipers and washers - These have always been a major bugbear and a regular source of mockery from friends (even got mentioned in my best mans speech) and I am determined to find a way to improve them. They stick when the screen is anything other than soaking, they are clunky, and they sit too high up the windscreen when parked (one reason why wife doesnt enjoy the passenger experience so much she cant see out the window properly ļ). I am planning a replacement wiper motor and modified wiper arms with low profile blades to set neatly along the bottom of the screen. I also previously replaced the washer jet pipes that are fastened to the wiper arms with a jet positioned on the windscreen scuttle. This was a very successful mod but I plan to better it by adding a second jet and improving the washer pump.
- Brakes - Not sure what conversion to go for yet (might just be the separate bells to enable use of a wider range of disks) but the brakes will be upgraded.
- Engine conversion - I am planning to drop in an LS3 (sounds so simple when its put like that ļ) mated to TKO 600 gearbox. I have read about the experiences of others who have gone down the LS route. There have been a lot of different paths taken but after weighing up the options I have decided on this.
Rationale for choice of engine/box:
==============================
o Higher output in stock form than previous LSs will hopefully mean a more reliable platform to start from. I may add to it over time (hence gearbox selection) but although I am after more power its reliability (and easier servicing esp abroad) that I am looking for.
o I am not sure whether a pure LS3 has been put in a Cerb yet (couldn¡¦t find one on here). I know there are a few LS1, 6 and 2s that have been done and some have had LS3 bits (heads, intakes, throttle bodies etc) added. However the unit size is supposed to be the same for the LS3 as these other LS units so it has a reasonable chance of fitting.
o Gearbox options I considered were a) uprated T5, b) T56 or c) TKO600. I believe the T5 is more of a pain to mate to the LS and that the T56 is v heavy and is a tight fit requiring chassis mods to get the engine far back. Downsides to this selection are that I am yet to get to the bottom of how involved matching the prop, diff and driveshaft would be (this is an area I need some help on), obviously the T5 would fit straight to these existing components and the TKO is a 5-speed as opposed to the T56s 6.
Other thoughts/challenges/questions:
===============================
- I am planning to use the GM harness, ECU and the Drive By Wire throttle (modified to fit the Cerb and to provide the long throttle pedal travel we have grown to love on the Cerb). I intend to retain the existing gauges and instruments so this will be one challenge to tap these into the new harness (and presumably gearbox). I am not particular fazed by the electrics but it will depend on being able to get hold of wiring diagrams for the Cerb and the LS.
- A few posts I have read have suggested the TKO will be a good fit and will bring the gearstick up in the right place whilst allowing the engine to be as far back as possible in the bay. It has been suggested on one thread (by Omerta/Don I think) that having the stick in the ¡§most forward position¡¨ will bring the stick up in the right place while allowing 10mm gap to the firewall. From looking at the Tremec data, this would be the 7¡¨ position which is not ¡§out of the box¡¨ and I think needs to be specced at purchase time. Can anyone confirm this is the correct position and that 10mm to the firewall is reasonable?
- It was also suggested that the TKO allows sufficient space to run 3¡¨ pipes with the LS (ie leaves sufficient space between the chassis and the box/bellhousing). What I cant work out is whether this will work with the standard LS headers or whether something slimline/custom would be required.
- If I go with the TKO, what options do I have with the prop, diff and drive shaft? Do I need to replace all 3? If I got a custom made prop to fit the box and the diff would the stock 4.2 diff handle the increased output or does that need to be uprated, and what to? Will the drive shaft need to be uprated, and what to?
- There are a number of aftermarket engine mounts out there but I have not worked out which to go with yet. Does anyone have any suggestions (prefereably with suppliers/part numbers )?
- I will probs go with some uprated CAMs at the time of fitting to lift the power to between 480-500 ¡V the GM hot cams are one option but I am led to believe there are better options out there with more power without destroying the feel too much. I do want the thing to be everyday driveable (although it wont be) as well as trackable etc.
- Obviously this setup will need to be mapped (I believe there is a factory map provided with the engine). Does anyone have recommendations for engineers to do this? I am based in Newcastle but could trailer the car if necessary.
- I am not intending to introduce traction control at this stage but if its too much of a monster for my driving abililties (or my concentration levels
) then I may retro fit.- I am assuming that the air con pump that comes with the LS accessories will be fit with the existing Cerb air con system? Not looked into this yet. Anyone got any info on this?
- Cerb wipers have a longer throw than most cars (170 degrees as opposed to 110). I am looking at getting a used BMW wiper unit but gearing it differently to provide the required swing. I couldnt find any record on here of this having been done before so if anyone knows I¡¦d be interested. It may be possible to not regear the motor itself but to use a different offset on the actual wiper arms to achieve the same effect needs some further investigation.
- I reckon finding seats is going to be a challenge as there isnt much width between the doors and the transmission tunnel. If anyone has successfully fitted aftermarket seats Id be interested in knowing what you put in there. Once I have measured up I will be doing a bit of research in this area and will report back in case it is of interest.
- Suspension - has already been uprated although was about 2 years ago. I cant remember off the top of my head what was put on there. It may have been Gaz ¡V but I know I considered Nitrons at one point. I will need to check this out and then decide whether it needs further upgrade.
Order of events:
==========
The order I intend to approach this is as follows (any fundamental flaws please let me know):
- purchase engine and box;
- purchase any suspension and brake upgrades;
- identify and purchase seats;
- remove AJP and T5;
- mate engine and box and fit in engine bay to position engine and transmission mounts (tack them in place for now)
- measure up for new prop/diff/driveshaft and purchase where appropriate;
- strip car interior and send of for retrim
- body lift (identify all fuel lines, brake lines and other ancillaries etc that need replacing and purchase);
- chassis media blast, repair (replace rotten tubes and secure engine mounts) and hot dip galvanise;
- body shell prepared (including mods for wipers, washer jets etc);
- chassis returned and built up (inc polybushes, brake upgrades/suspension upgrades etc);
- bodyshell refitted
- respray,
- fit new heatshields etc
- engine fitted including mods to drive by wire throttle, engine electrics and tapping into original loom;
- initial engine start test;
- interior refitted;
- car trailered tuners for remap;
- initial trouble shooting;
Much respect to those who have already successfully done this (Steve Heath, BoostedLS1, Jellison to name but a few). I know that a few of these guys are doing this as a business. I have decided to do this myself for a few reasons: Firstly I want a project/challenge (I think this is certainly it!!). Secondly I want to be able to maintain this myself in future and so by doing it myself feel that will give me the intimate knowledge of how it is put together. Thirdly I have the space and a 2-post lift, tools etc at my disposal so would be good to put them to some use!!
However I really would appreciate input from some of these experts
so if they would prefer any of their trade secrets not to be shared publicly I¡¦d respect that and could always discuss over email/PM/phone.Finally if anyone has any other constructive tips, things to watch out for or other improvements (i.e. remote resevoirs, relocating accessories etc) that I should be looking at whilst I am in there then please feel free to share them with me
.Thanks for reading
Rich
Edited by C2ERB on Tuesday 20th October 18:47
Edited by C2ERB on Tuesday 20th October 18:48
Edited by C2ERB on Tuesday 20th October 18:49
Crikey.... epic first post! OK, some thoughts... quite a few of these are based on my own mistakes made.
- Is this a road car, drag car, occasional track day car, circuit racing car, or a hybrid? This will inform everything from seat choice to engine positioning so best be clear on how you're going to use it before you start.
- As you've noted the space for seats is narrow due to the tunnel at the base and the window glass at shoulder/head height. Try before you buy.
- T56 does fit (as I found out when Rich did it!) and IIRC he didn't cut anything. But it is tight and the TKO is lighter. And more expensive. People will tend to recommend what they have done themselves but all three are proven to work, so do your research and make your choice.
- My TKO shifter is in the standard forward position that doesn't require the kit. I can't recall the measurements but do recall that if we'd wanted to move the engine any further back then the kit would have been needed for the next position. My LS6 engine is 10mm from the firewall.
- Don't make the body off & engine conversion project any bigger in scope than it needs to be. Brake upgrade, wiper conversion I'd personally leave as future projects.
- Bin the standard LS headers - they don't clear the chassis rails.
- We shortened the standard prop shaft, using standard diff and standard half shafts (for now). I'm expecting to replace the half shafts with something stronger but will make that a future project after it's running.
- Engine mounts - various options... I ued the same urethane SBC conversion mounts that jellison used bougt from Summit Racing, bolted to a custom mount on the chassis rails.
- Cams: as said previous, perhaps best left as a future upgrade?
- Wiring diagrams for Cerb and LS are all available (various Cerb sites, www.ls1tech.com). Be nice to Rich and he might give you some extra help on that front.
- Your project plan doesn't mention exhaust size and routing - his needs to be planned early. The lower the engine is the closer the exhaust ports get to the top chassis rail and the tighter the bend in the headers required to go straight down (which is why I went forward into a collector instead). The further back the engine, the less room you have to bring the pipes down in the same way as the Cerb standard (and shpub's conversion).
Only last bit of advice from me is to get into it - sounds like you've done enough reading and planning. I don't know where you live but try to go and see Brummy's and Rich's conversions (you're welcome to see mine too if you're passing this way
)
Have fun.
- Is this a road car, drag car, occasional track day car, circuit racing car, or a hybrid? This will inform everything from seat choice to engine positioning so best be clear on how you're going to use it before you start.
- As you've noted the space for seats is narrow due to the tunnel at the base and the window glass at shoulder/head height. Try before you buy.
- T56 does fit (as I found out when Rich did it!) and IIRC he didn't cut anything. But it is tight and the TKO is lighter. And more expensive. People will tend to recommend what they have done themselves but all three are proven to work, so do your research and make your choice.
- My TKO shifter is in the standard forward position that doesn't require the kit. I can't recall the measurements but do recall that if we'd wanted to move the engine any further back then the kit would have been needed for the next position. My LS6 engine is 10mm from the firewall.
- Don't make the body off & engine conversion project any bigger in scope than it needs to be. Brake upgrade, wiper conversion I'd personally leave as future projects.
- Bin the standard LS headers - they don't clear the chassis rails.
- We shortened the standard prop shaft, using standard diff and standard half shafts (for now). I'm expecting to replace the half shafts with something stronger but will make that a future project after it's running.
- Engine mounts - various options... I ued the same urethane SBC conversion mounts that jellison used bougt from Summit Racing, bolted to a custom mount on the chassis rails.
- Cams: as said previous, perhaps best left as a future upgrade?
- Wiring diagrams for Cerb and LS are all available (various Cerb sites, www.ls1tech.com). Be nice to Rich and he might give you some extra help on that front.
- Your project plan doesn't mention exhaust size and routing - his needs to be planned early. The lower the engine is the closer the exhaust ports get to the top chassis rail and the tighter the bend in the headers required to go straight down (which is why I went forward into a collector instead). The further back the engine, the less room you have to bring the pipes down in the same way as the Cerb standard (and shpub's conversion).
Only last bit of advice from me is to get into it - sounds like you've done enough reading and planning. I don't know where you live but try to go and see Brummy's and Rich's conversions (you're welcome to see mine too if you're passing this way
)Have fun.
Thanks Don!! Some really useful info there. A few follow-ons below.
Oh and if I'm heading to NZ I'll def give you a shout!!
- Realistically the car is going to be mostly for road with regular track use and possibly the occasional drag. None of this would be competitive though (officially). So although I want it performant it cant be too raw either in terms of ride, noise or power delivery.
- Interesting about the T56 I hadnt realised that we had managed to get one in without major surgery on the chassis. From what I have read though, on balance I am still favouring the TKO600.
- Your post seems to suggest that the engine could have gone further back? I've not been under there yet but when you say 10mm from the firewall do you mean that it is 10mm from as far back as it could possibly go? 10mm seems a sensible gap to ensure no additional vibration, knocking or rubbing against the firewall.
- I will pass your description of shifter position onto tremec (or reseller) and see if we can work out which position you refer to for the shifter so I can get it shipped in the right position to save hassle later.
- Interesting about the stock exhaust headers. I am planning on using as much of the existing exhaust as I can (I think its a 3" SS with sport cats on there - and I could be wrong but I think they came from ACT). My intention was to try and route the exhaust in the standard route but it sounds like even with the TKO I may find this difficult. Did you have custom headers built? I have seen some low profile (but apparently well flowing) LS3 headers in the US which may be useful. I think this is going to be my biggest problem area.
- Only reason I was planning to the brakes and other upgrades at the same time was because the car would already be in bits (= more accessibility) and to do the cams while the engine was out. Take your point though - its a big enough job without these extras. However there may be down time while waiting for interior to come back from trimmers etc during which time some of these could be tackled.
Thanks again for taking the time to respond. Like you say I need to get started. Unfortunately I've another project to finish off first (nearly there though) so it will be a few weeks. I am just getting all the research done now so I can start prepared and then push on.
Cheers
Rich
Oh and if I'm heading to NZ I'll def give you a shout!!
- Realistically the car is going to be mostly for road with regular track use and possibly the occasional drag. None of this would be competitive though (officially
). So although I want it performant it cant be too raw either in terms of ride, noise or power delivery.- Interesting about the T56 I hadnt realised that we had managed to get one in without major surgery on the chassis. From what I have read though, on balance I am still favouring the TKO600.
- Your post seems to suggest that the engine could have gone further back? I've not been under there yet but when you say 10mm from the firewall do you mean that it is 10mm from as far back as it could possibly go? 10mm seems a sensible gap to ensure no additional vibration, knocking or rubbing against the firewall.
- I will pass your description of shifter position onto tremec (or reseller) and see if we can work out which position you refer to for the shifter so I can get it shipped in the right position to save hassle later
.- Interesting about the stock exhaust headers. I am planning on using as much of the existing exhaust as I can (I think its a 3" SS with sport cats on there - and I could be wrong but I think they came from ACT). My intention was to try and route the exhaust in the standard route but it sounds like even with the TKO I may find this difficult. Did you have custom headers built? I have seen some low profile (but apparently well flowing) LS3 headers in the US which may be useful. I think this is going to be my biggest problem area.
- Only reason I was planning to the brakes and other upgrades at the same time was because the car would already be in bits (= more accessibility) and to do the cams while the engine was out. Take your point though - its a big enough job without these extras. However there may be down time while waiting for interior to come back from trimmers etc during which time some of these could be tackled.
Thanks again for taking the time to respond. Like you say I need to get started. Unfortunately I've another project to finish off first (nearly there though) so it will be a few weeks. I am just getting all the research done now so I can start prepared and then push on.
Cheers
Rich
C2ERB said:
Your post seems to suggest that the engine could have gone further back?
Nope - it's as far back as you can go without firewall surgery. And the only way to go lower without dropping below the bottom rail would have been with a dry sump (which is worth serious consideration).C2ERB said:
Did you have custom headers built?
Yes and I think I'm right in saying so did every other conversion. An off the shelf hugger header *might* fit (I looked at published specs and couldn't find one), but you'd have to look at what you're losing in flow/HP with having a real tight bend straight out from the exhaust. Having said that, Brummy's headers come straight down inside the rail and he doesn't seem to have any flow/HP problem! His are 2" headers IIRC though.Using the stock header routing to meet the standard Cerb down pipe may only be possible by keeping the standard T5 (which is smaller than TKO or T56) because there is very little room between the top of the T56/TKO and the chassis/body. Steve Heath would be the man to talk to if that's your aim. I don't know how Steve's engine positioning would compare to mine either - possibly further forward or higher up to get the clearance, but I don't know.
Ah ha, Don just put me onto this thread
Can't believe you missed these
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
plus the final one of course
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
And the initial dyno
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Thats a bit of bedtime reading for you, think it should give you my solutions to your questions but obviously there's more than one way to skin a cat
Going for the Chev ECU is a great choice, I used Duncan and Paul from Wortec for help with the mapping as they supplied the supercharger but they do any mapping requirements, Paul drives all over the country mapping LS engines. I bought HPTuners software, which is very good.
As Don said I've documented my mods to the wiring looms including getting all the original TVR gauges to work inc shift and MIL light. Let me know when you get to that stage.
I went with the T56 as it came with the engine. No major chassis mods needed. Works great with the 3.73 diff. Money no object I'd have gone TKO for the ease but weight isn't something I'm too worried about.
I've got twin 3" exhausts all the way through. Don't think any AJP sports exhaust is 3" except for the tail ends. AJP cats are 2.25" IIRC. You'll need 2.5" minimum, I would have used 2.5" but wasn't sure how good my welding was going to be.
Starting point is to get the engine where you want it. Brummmie, Omerta and myself have NOT modified the front suspension cross member. We all have the engine sitting pretty much where the AJP did with the bottom of the sump in line with the bottom of the lower chassis rail, give or take a bit. Looking at the Topcats car and Steve's conversions, the engine's look to sit further forward and higher, hence the need to modify the suspension cross member. This makes getting the engine in and out easier and routing headers easier as you create more space between the upper chassis rail and the exhaust ports BUT I'd question what this high/forward position does to the handling. Jellison was always quite vocal on engine positioning
The turnkey solutions are only AJP replacements with a lot of time gone into using as much of the original AJP equipment as possible whereas Brum, me and Omerta have fitted LS1's without compromise at greater expense and time.
Best to get the engine sitting right before you remove the body, that way your chassis can be stripped and dipped without any worries of later modifications.
I managed to fit the chev alternator and PS pump in their original LS1 locations on the original brackets with just a hint of modification here and there, IMO, it makes the installation look much tidier. BUT the chev aircon comp wouldn't go without moving a chassis support, can't say I looked at it too closely as I don't like aircon anyway.
Drive by wire might be a PITA, I run a 2004 Monaro map (last monaro with cable throttle). It just so happens....if you fit Tuscan pedals....the space previously occupied by the brake servo/master cylinder is an ideal place for the chev ECU to sit without having to extent the length of the chev wiring loom
Lastly, I've just fitted Tuscan seats and contrary to popular opinion I find them better than the originals, you can bend the side bolsters to fit your body, most get bent outwards when people get in and out over time.
Your list is pretty much what I did, I took me two years although I did have a few other projects to do at the same time.
My car is going to be at the Pistonheads show in January but look me up if you're ever down south.
Rich.
Can't believe you missed these
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
plus the final one of course
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
And the initial dyno
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Thats a bit of bedtime reading for you, think it should give you my solutions to your questions but obviously there's more than one way to skin a cat
Going for the Chev ECU is a great choice, I used Duncan and Paul from Wortec for help with the mapping as they supplied the supercharger but they do any mapping requirements, Paul drives all over the country mapping LS engines. I bought HPTuners software, which is very good.
As Don said I've documented my mods to the wiring looms including getting all the original TVR gauges to work inc shift and MIL light. Let me know when you get to that stage.
I went with the T56 as it came with the engine. No major chassis mods needed. Works great with the 3.73 diff. Money no object I'd have gone TKO for the ease but weight isn't something I'm too worried about.
I've got twin 3" exhausts all the way through. Don't think any AJP sports exhaust is 3" except for the tail ends. AJP cats are 2.25" IIRC. You'll need 2.5" minimum, I would have used 2.5" but wasn't sure how good my welding was going to be.
Starting point is to get the engine where you want it. Brummmie, Omerta and myself have NOT modified the front suspension cross member. We all have the engine sitting pretty much where the AJP did with the bottom of the sump in line with the bottom of the lower chassis rail, give or take a bit. Looking at the Topcats car and Steve's conversions, the engine's look to sit further forward and higher, hence the need to modify the suspension cross member. This makes getting the engine in and out easier and routing headers easier as you create more space between the upper chassis rail and the exhaust ports BUT I'd question what this high/forward position does to the handling. Jellison was always quite vocal on engine positioning
The turnkey solutions are only AJP replacements with a lot of time gone into using as much of the original AJP equipment as possible whereas Brum, me and Omerta have fitted LS1's without compromise at greater expense and time.
Best to get the engine sitting right before you remove the body, that way your chassis can be stripped and dipped without any worries of later modifications.
I managed to fit the chev alternator and PS pump in their original LS1 locations on the original brackets with just a hint of modification here and there, IMO, it makes the installation look much tidier. BUT the chev aircon comp wouldn't go without moving a chassis support, can't say I looked at it too closely as I don't like aircon anyway.
Drive by wire might be a PITA, I run a 2004 Monaro map (last monaro with cable throttle). It just so happens....if you fit Tuscan pedals....the space previously occupied by the brake servo/master cylinder is an ideal place for the chev ECU to sit without having to extent the length of the chev wiring loom
Lastly, I've just fitted Tuscan seats and contrary to popular opinion I find them better than the originals, you can bend the side bolsters to fit your body, most get bent outwards when people get in and out over time.
Your list is pretty much what I did, I took me two years although I did have a few other projects to do at the same time.
My car is going to be at the Pistonheads show in January but look me up if you're ever down south.
Rich.
Hi mate. Funny another Rich .. been chatting to Rich Dunn on email today about this very topic. Ironic really because I guess I'm going to be far from rich by the time this is completed!! :s
Not wanting to blow smoke up yer ass fella but that is a stunning job you've done there. I did read through most of your threads over the last couple of weeks and they have been the source of a lot of the info I have built up like tightness around the box etc (oo-er).
My plan as you suggest is to get the engine and box lined up and the mounts fitted first so that I can get the chassis repaired and galvanised without then having to grind off the coating in order to weld later.
You may be right about the exhaust I am pretty sure the tailpipe is 3" but couldnt say for the rest. I think the route I am going to go down is to get the engine in place and see how much space I have (hard to visualise from photos having not been under there myself yet) then find some aftermarket LS shorty headers (1 7/8" primaries -> 3" collector) and then get 3" pipes made up (with sport cats probably). I have emailed a couple of firms in the states today about headers I have seen advertised. There is one that goes straight down so would require more or less a 90 degree elbow but would mean the custom fabrication would be reduced. I am not a welder so would need to
I've also read some stories about oil surge/starvation with the LS3. They may well be scaremongering and I am pretty sure that the sort of driving I am going to be doing will not result in that but I have had a cursory glance at dry sump conversion and accusumps. One reason I was looking at dry sump was because it could result in a shallower oil pan and maybe let me get the engine lower or provide more ground clearance. However from what you are saying it doesnt sound like that is necessary if you are more or less level with lower chassis rail. If its not necessary I think I will leave it as a possible later addition.
Thanks for the heads up about Wortec. Interesting that they travel - does it still need to be done on a rolling road?
I am still thinking of going with TKO although depending on how easy it is to mate the T5 up I may start with that and see what happens (replace when it breaks maybe). The LS3s I've been looking at dont come with a box so I do have the luxury of choosing and could sell the T5 if necessary.
How did you find the transmission mounts for the t56? Did you have to fabricate brackets for the chassis for them too?
As you can probably tell I am in soak-up-as-much-info mode at the moment. At some point I am actually going to have to get my hands dirty.
Rich
Not wanting to blow smoke up yer ass fella but that is a stunning job you've done there. I did read through most of your threads over the last couple of weeks and they have been the source of a lot of the info I have built up like tightness around the box etc (oo-er).
My plan as you suggest is to get the engine and box lined up and the mounts fitted first so that I can get the chassis repaired and galvanised without then having to grind off the coating in order to weld later.
You may be right about the exhaust I am pretty sure the tailpipe is 3" but couldnt say for the rest. I think the route I am going to go down is to get the engine in place and see how much space I have (hard to visualise from photos having not been under there myself yet) then find some aftermarket LS shorty headers (1 7/8" primaries -> 3" collector) and then get 3" pipes made up (with sport cats probably). I have emailed a couple of firms in the states today about headers I have seen advertised. There is one that goes straight down so would require more or less a 90 degree elbow but would mean the custom fabrication would be reduced. I am not a welder so would need to
I've also read some stories about oil surge/starvation with the LS3. They may well be scaremongering and I am pretty sure that the sort of driving I am going to be doing will not result in that but I have had a cursory glance at dry sump conversion and accusumps. One reason I was looking at dry sump was because it could result in a shallower oil pan and maybe let me get the engine lower or provide more ground clearance. However from what you are saying it doesnt sound like that is necessary if you are more or less level with lower chassis rail. If its not necessary I think I will leave it as a possible later addition.
Thanks for the heads up about Wortec. Interesting that they travel - does it still need to be done on a rolling road?
I am still thinking of going with TKO although depending on how easy it is to mate the T5 up I may start with that and see what happens (replace when it breaks maybe). The LS3s I've been looking at dont come with a box so I do have the luxury of choosing and could sell the T5 if necessary.
How did you find the transmission mounts for the t56? Did you have to fabricate brackets for the chassis for them too?
As you can probably tell I am in soak-up-as-much-info mode at the moment. At some point I am actually going to have to get my hands dirty
.Rich
Also ...
.. I might come to the pistonheads show actually (hopefully be in the middle of the job then so would be good to have a look).
You mention the tuscan pedals. I sat in one once but never drove it (they hinge from the bottom IIRC?). How come there are no brake cylinders required if you swap the pedal??
I actually really like the stock cerb feel to the pedal. Clearly the drive by wire is going to mean a change to the gas pedal but I have had a look at the pedal assembly that comes with the LS3 and I think I would be able to fabricate something to keep the original alloy pedal and similar pedal travel. I had thought about locating the ECU behind the where the centre speaker used to be. I am planning an aly panel for that spot possibly with a couple of gauges in (oil temp, battery condition). I remember seeing a company ages ago that had apparently made the Cerb gauges for TVR and offered a number of additional matched ones. Maybe I dreamt that ...
Rich
.. I might come to the pistonheads show actually (hopefully be in the middle of the job then so would be good to have a look).
You mention the tuscan pedals. I sat in one once but never drove it (they hinge from the bottom IIRC?). How come there are no brake cylinders required if you swap the pedal??
I actually really like the stock cerb feel to the pedal. Clearly the drive by wire is going to mean a change to the gas pedal but I have had a look at the pedal assembly that comes with the LS3 and I think I would be able to fabricate something to keep the original alloy pedal and similar pedal travel. I had thought about locating the ECU behind the where the centre speaker used to be. I am planning an aly panel for that spot possibly with a couple of gauges in (oil temp, battery condition). I remember seeing a company ages ago that had apparently made the Cerb gauges for TVR and offered a number of additional matched ones. Maybe I dreamt that ...
Rich
[quote]
Starting point is to get the engine where you want it. Brummmie, Omerta and myself have NOT modified the front suspension cross member. We all have the engine sitting pretty much where the AJP did with the bottom of the sump in line with the bottom of the lower chassis rail, give or take a bit. Looking at the Topcats car and Steve's conversions, the engine's look to sit further forward and higher, hence the need to modify the suspension cross member. This makes getting the engine in and out easier and routing headers easier as you create more space between the upper chassis rail and the exhaust ports BUT I'd question what this high/forward position does to the handling. Jellison was always quite vocal on engine positioning
[/quote]
Brummie and I had quite a chat about engine positioning. In some ways he was more envious of the way I had done it because he had found that a cam change (or anything that required the front crank pulley to be removed, needed the engine out. There is also the problem that some inlet manifolds e.g Fast require more space at the back and didn't fit without moving/changing the bulkhead.
My engine is also sitting level with the bottom of the rail.
As for the balance change... 0.5% when I measured it... which is in the noise to be honest. Or put another way, taking out the spare can of petrol out of the boot has a similar level of effect. Yes in an ideal world further back is generally good but it doesn't make that much difference in reality. It does make the job and maintenance a lot easier though.
Starting point is to get the engine where you want it. Brummmie, Omerta and myself have NOT modified the front suspension cross member. We all have the engine sitting pretty much where the AJP did with the bottom of the sump in line with the bottom of the lower chassis rail, give or take a bit. Looking at the Topcats car and Steve's conversions, the engine's look to sit further forward and higher, hence the need to modify the suspension cross member. This makes getting the engine in and out easier and routing headers easier as you create more space between the upper chassis rail and the exhaust ports BUT I'd question what this high/forward position does to the handling. Jellison was always quite vocal on engine positioning
[/quote]
Brummie and I had quite a chat about engine positioning. In some ways he was more envious of the way I had done it because he had found that a cam change (or anything that required the front crank pulley to be removed, needed the engine out. There is also the problem that some inlet manifolds e.g Fast require more space at the back and didn't fit without moving/changing the bulkhead.
My engine is also sitting level with the bottom of the rail.
As for the balance change... 0.5% when I measured it... which is in the noise to be honest. Or put another way, taking out the spare can of petrol out of the boot has a similar level of effect. Yes in an ideal world further back is generally good but it doesn't make that much difference in reality. It does make the job and maintenance a lot easier though.
Hi Steve, thanks for your input.
So if weight distribution isnt far off perfect and motor is as low as is feasible without impacting ground clearance it sounds like there cant be much differnence in handling between your two approaches?
Out of interest roughly how much difference are we talking between your two setups? A few cms? Obviously the conversion needs to be maintainable. I am struggling to visualise to be honest so some of these decisions will have to wait until I have the engine in place.
Rich
So if weight distribution isnt far off perfect and motor is as low as is feasible without impacting ground clearance it sounds like there cant be much differnence in handling between your two approaches?
Out of interest roughly how much difference are we talking between your two setups? A few cms? Obviously the conversion needs to be maintainable. I am struggling to visualise to be honest so some of these decisions will have to wait until I have the engine in place.
Rich
Hi Don, yeh I agree it would be a useful comparison. I'm not sure everyone would be keen to publish though.
One question I had was around the power steering. I'm sure I was told that the Cerb had "servo assisted" steering as opposed to traditional power steering (not entirely sure how different they are).
The LS3 accessories include the PAS pump and I was wondering whether this would be usable with the Cerb system without major rework. What did you guys do with your conversions?
Thx
Rich
One question I had was around the power steering. I'm sure I was told that the Cerb had "servo assisted" steering as opposed to traditional power steering (not entirely sure how different they are).
The LS3 accessories include the PAS pump and I was wondering whether this would be usable with the Cerb system without major rework. What did you guys do with your conversions?
Thx
Rich
Mines an LS3 block, but with a 4" stroker crank, and forged internals. I fitted an Edlebrock front cover to mine so i could make cam swaps easier, no oil surge problems either. I also fitted a FAST intake manifold earlier this year, I discovered i had to cut the fire wall to get this in, but that was no real drama.
heres the cover, might be worth fitting if you want to play cams?
Slippers were sourced in the UK.
heres the cover, might be worth fitting if you want to play cams?
Slippers were sourced in the UK.
Just a small point on treating the chassis...
When I was rebuilding mine I investigated different treatments and discovered from various sources that galvanising the chassis will noticeably increase its weight. This is because when it is dipped, unless you start drilling holes everywhere a lot of galvanising fluid will remain in the chassis.
I ended up getting mine blasted, zinc sprayed and then powder coated. Other measures i have taken to protect the chassis are to fit metal plates at the front of the outriggers inside the arches and also at the rear to stop road rash.
I will be very interested in your wiper upgrade as the standard ones truely are terrible.
Good luck with the project and take lots of pictures!
When I was rebuilding mine I investigated different treatments and discovered from various sources that galvanising the chassis will noticeably increase its weight. This is because when it is dipped, unless you start drilling holes everywhere a lot of galvanising fluid will remain in the chassis.
I ended up getting mine blasted, zinc sprayed and then powder coated. Other measures i have taken to protect the chassis are to fit metal plates at the front of the outriggers inside the arches and also at the rear to stop road rash.
I will be very interested in your wiper upgrade as the standard ones truely are terrible.
Good luck with the project and take lots of pictures!
i'm currently driving a vette since relocating over to the US, and after looking around the various forums for cam options, many people are rating using the standard GM cam from the ZR1 into the LS3. A good low cost but still marked improvement with good road manners but making good power i'm told.
hugepiece said:
i'm currently driving a vette since relocating over to the US, and after looking around the various forums for cam options, many people are rating using the standard GM cam from the ZR1 into the LS3. A good low cost but still marked improvement with good road manners but making good power i'm told.
Go and speak with or phone Schwartz Performance just outside Chicago. I went to see them earlier this year - they do some great Cams and LS performance upgradesblackiepaul said:
Go and speak with or phone Schwartz Performance just outside Chicago. I went to see them earlier this year - they do some great Cams and LS performance upgrades
Ooh, what lift and duration have you gone for? I assume you will remap to suit? Would be interesting to put that on powers Dyno and overlap it with mine.
I am trying a few new tweaks with mine in the near future, doms okayed me to play on there for a day!
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