LS6 Cerb in NZ update

[Ffirg 005]

Seeing as this forum's been so quiet and we wouldn't want Ted to think it's not needed any more... here's a bit about my work in progress.

Before leaving the UK to come back to New Zealand I got hold of a fire damaged '97 Cerb which was minus engine (4.5) and trans (see profile for a pic, more on http://tvr1.members.winisp.net/firecerb/. I now have it back in NZ and hope to have it rebuilt with an LS6 by the end of this year tho that might be optimistic. First I need to build the garage for it, so work can't start for a couple of months at least but in the meantime I'm doing loads of research and getting together all the parts I'll need.

I bought chevtrev's (Paul's) '03 Lingenfelter 450hp LS6 off him now he has grander plans for an LS7 or some such, and also his T56 which came out of an '04 Monaro. I don't know how much work will be needed to squeeze it all in but based on some detailed measuring (haven't tried putting them together yet) I'm optimistic there won't be too much needed in the way of chassis mods. Paul had it all fitted into his Chim chassis and although the Cerb chassis is different, it's not all that different. Assuming I position the engine similar to Jon's - crank pulley just clearing the crossmember - the LS6 will drop in between the rails with room to spare and the T56 bellhousing also clears the rails with quite a bit of room either side. Where I'll have a problem, if any, will be further back behind the standard gearshift location (the T56 shift is approx 20cm further back than the T5) where the top rails converge. It's quite possible this won't be a problem if it's below the top rails because the bottom rails appear to be wide enough. I won't really know for sure what problems I'll have until I swing it in, but at this stage it looks promising

Some of the parts I still need / things to sort:

- Coilpack. Probably try to pick up a used set of standard vette ones.

- Shift linkage. The T56 gearshift will be ~20cm behind where I need it so some kind of linkage is needed to bring it up through the original shift location. What are the options for doing this?

- Power steering pump. I'll probably fit an electric pump to drive the standard cerb PS rack - the one off a Saxo works on Cerbs apparently but Saxo's are thin on the ground here and parts expensive. I'l probably just suck it and see with a jap pump (chevtrev's suggested one off an MR2 which would be cheap as chips to get here) but it's guesswork without knowing any specs like flow, PSI.

- Engine and trans mounts will need to be custom made locally. Any thoughts on rubber vs poly, other considerations?

- Alternator, a/c compressor, drive belts and mounts for it all - will have to see what kind of room I have once the engine's positioned. I know Jon had a fair bit of trial and error before he got everything to fit.

- Wiring & electrics. The fire burnt out all wiring and components forward of the transmission tunnel. I've got replacement parts for everything including all the black boxes, dash, pod, gauges etc but expect it to be challenging to get doors, windows, etc working again with the minimal documentation available so may end up stripping out the factory electrics and going custom. Then there's the engine loom to be acquired/made and grafted in...

Aftermarket computer will be from these local guys who are building a big reputation - Link Electrosystems www.link-electro.co.nz/lem_link_plus.html.

- Headers and exhaust. Would like to run these back and down the trans tunnel as with the AJP, but unlikely to have the room so it'll probably be a local custom fabrication job forward like Jon's.

So that's about were I'm at - appreciate any comments or suggestions. Mechanically I've not taken on anything as big as this before so it's going to be a pretty major learning experience for me.

Don

[jellison]

Ffirg 005 said:

Seeing as this forum's been so quiet and we wouldn't want Ted to think it's not needed any more... here's a bit about my work in progress. Before leaving the UK to come back to New Zealand I got hold of a fire damaged '97 Cerb which was minus engine (4.5) and trans (see profile for a pic, more on http://tvr1.members.winisp.net/firecerb/. I now have it back in NZ and hope to have it rebuilt with an LS6 by the end of this year tho that might be optimistic. First I need to build the garage for it, so work can't start for a couple of months at least but in the meantime I'm doing loads of research and getting together all the parts I'll need. I bought chevtrev's (Paul's) '03 Lingenfelter 450hp LS6 off him now he has grander plans for an LS7 or some such, and also his T56 which came out of an '04 Monaro. I don't know how much work will be needed to squeeze it all in but based on some detailed measuring (haven't tried putting them together yet) I'm optimistic there won't be too much needed in the way of chassis mods. Paul had it all fitted into his Chim chassis and although the Cerb chassis is different, it's not all that different. Assuming I position the engine similar to Jon's - crank pulley just clearing the crossmember - the LS6 will drop in between the rails with room to spare and the T56 bellhousing also clears the rails with quite a bit of room either side. Where I'll have a problem, if any, will be further back behind the standard gearshift location (the T56 shift is approx 20cm further back than the T5) where the top rails converge. It's quite possible this won't be a problem if it's below the top rails because the bottom rails appear to be wide enough. I won't really know for sure what problems I'll have until I swing it in, but at this stage it looks promising Some of the parts I still need / things to sort: - Coilpack. Probably try to pick up a used set of standard vette ones. - Shift linkage. The T56 gearshift will be ~20cm behind where I need it so some kind of linkage is needed to bring it up through the original shift location. What are the options for doing this? - Power steering pump. I'll probably fit an electric pump to drive the standard cerb PS rack - the one off a Saxo works on Cerbs apparently but Saxo's are thin on the ground here and parts expensive. I'l probably just suck it and see with a jap pump (chevtrev's suggested one off an MR2 which would be cheap as chips to get here) but it's guesswork without knowing any specs like flow, PSI. - Engine and trans mounts will need to be custom made locally. Any thoughts on rubber vs poly, other considerations? - Alternator, a/c compressor, drive belts and mounts for it all - will have to see what kind of room I have once the engine's positioned. I know Jon had a fair bit of trial and error before he got everything to fit. - Wiring & electrics. The fire burnt out all wiring and components forward of the transmission tunnel. I've got replacement parts for everything including all the black boxes, dash, pod, gauges etc but expect it to be challenging to get doors, windows, etc working again with the minimal documentation available so may end up stripping out the factory electrics and going custom. Then there's the engine loom to be acquired/made and grafted in... Aftermarket computer will be from these local guys who are building a big reputation - Link Electrosystems www.link-electro.co.nz/lem_link_plus.html. - Headers and exhaust. Would like to run these back and down the trans tunnel as with the AJP, but unlikely to have the room so it'll probably be a local custom fabrication job forward like Jon's. So that's about were I'm at - appreciate any comments or suggestions. Mechanically I've not taken on anything as big as this before so it's going to be a pretty major learning experience for me. Don

Don - few comments - see TVRolet (something like that) comment on having to cut and make larger tunnel for the t56 - my guess is (as all TVR chassis Tuscan on are approx the same in this area) is that you will have to do the same. If on 20cm then just bend gear lever! 56's are heavy - tko ideal but 56 will be fine just more work!

Power steer - pump - Saxo - we looked inro this for client in lichtenstein - loads of buggering about and potential for major problems - get a late alloy body vette pump not older iron SBC one.

Engine and gearbox - you can get ls to sbc mounts (SBC have std rubber flex in and are fine) from here to chassis should be as solid as possibel - same for gbox solid to the mount - which should have rubber in it.

Forget AC - mine was easy without and did alot of work on another AC fitment but in end decided against it - not room - could have done alot more planning and got it to work - but not for me in uk and equally decided no real need - i'd forget it.

- Headers and exhaust. Would like to run these back and down the trans tunnel as with the AJP, but unlikely to have the room so it'll probably be a local custom fabrication job forward like Jon's. Easier and might have worked coming back and down but wider LS likely to kill that idea - loads of room forward - best use it!

Keep me / all posted.

Cheers
JON

[JR]

jellison said:

Don - few comments - see TVRolet (something like that) comment on having to cut and make larger tunnel for the t56 - my guess is (as all TVR chassis Tuscan on are approx the same in this area) is that you will have to do the same.

Don't think that your comment is relevant jelly; Cerb is a pre-Tuscan chassis. Don't think that Steve had posted any problems.

[Graham]

JR said:

jellison said: Don - few comments - see TVRolet (something like that) comment on having to cut and make larger tunnel for the t56 - my guess is (as all TVR chassis Tuscan on are approx the same in this area) is that you will have to do the same. Don't think that your comment is relevant jelly; Cerb is a pre-Tuscan chassis. Don't think that Steve had posted any problems.

I think Jellyson is refering to a tuscan challenge car not a speed 6. the TC car predates the cerbera... TVRolets car is an ex tuscan challenge car..

G

[Ffirg 005]

Thanks for your comments Jon - the pics I took of your engine bay outside the Swan back in June have been pretty handy already

jellison said:

see TVRolet (something like that) comment on having to cut and make larger tunnel for the t56 - my guess is (as all TVR chassis Tuscan on are approx the same in this area) is that you will have to do the same.

Looked up TVRolet and as Graham said his is a challenge Tuscan which date back to pre '90 IIRC, but also I believe there are some major differences in T56 box castings. All I know for sure is my measurements which indicate there's no problem until most of the way down the trans tunnel, but not counting any chickens on that... will need to swing it in there to know for sure.

jellison said:

Power steer - pump - Saxo - we looked inro this for client in lichtenstein - loads of buggering about and potential for major problems - get a late alloy body vette pump not older iron SBC one.

What sort of issues? Will the vette pump drive the Cerbera rack OK - if it's what you're running then I guess it will. There's been some successful Saxo pump conversions out there:
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=236152
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=223086

jellison said:

Engine and gearbox - you can get ls to sbc mounts (SBC have std rubber flex in and are fine) from here to chassis should be as solid as possibel - same for gbox solid to the mount - which should have rubber in it.

Like this?
www.speedwaymotors.com/xq/aspx/dept_id.924/display_id.5070/qx/product.htm
Doesn't this just mean that instead of welding an LS1 mount to the chassis I now weld an SBC mount? I'm missing what you mean here - can you please explain a bit more?

jellison said:

Forget AC - mine was easy without and did alot of work on another AC fitment but in end decided against it - not room - could have done alot more planning and got it to work - but not for me in uk and equally decided no real need - i'd forget it.

Yeah but you have the option of taking your roof off!
The Cerb had A/C originally so got all the gubbins for it except for the compressor pump which went with the engine. Anyone know how sensitive they are to having the right compressor? Maybe a vette one will do the job...

Cheers
Don

[jellison]

Graham said:

JR said: jellison said: Don - few comments - see TVRolet (something like that) comment on having to cut and make larger tunnel for the t56 - my guess is (as all TVR chassis Tuscan on are approx the same in this area) is that you will have to do the same. Don't think that your comment is relevant jelly; Cerb is a pre-Tuscan chassis. Don't think that Steve had posted any problems. I think Jellyson is refering to a tuscan challenge car not a speed 6. the TC car predates the cerbera... TVRolets car is an ex tuscan challenge car.. G

Exact and they are all similar basic dimension round this area likelt t56 will encroach alot more than t5 or tko. There are some pics of the tasy cutting and welding tvrolet did to get the t56 in on the back of his SBC. William - pop up again if you see this (could not find).

Hope rest helps.

[Ffirg 005]

Thanks Jon - interested in hearing more about the TVRolet conversion and yes, as the first guy to actually make this conversion happen appreciate your comments a lot!

[chevtrev]

Jon
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO CHOP THE CHASSIS FOR THE T56 TO FIT,,OK

[chevtrev]

Ffirg 005 said:

Thanks Jon - interested in hearing more about the TVRolet conversion and yes, as the first guy to actually make this conversion happen appreciate your comments a lot!

I'll beg to differ on your comment

[Boosted Ls1]

Being involved with some of this stuff I know the t56 box will fit with careful positioning. T56's come in a number of guises but are all similar in overall dimensions. They just moved the stick about for different applications and changed the front cover to suit an lsx.

Boosted.

[jellison]

Okky Dokky Paul (do you have your new engine yet?) - in that case if I was doing a Cerb I would go this route (Not Don as has engine) and just get a good used LS6 and t56 combo in from states. Easy (well you know what I mean).

Forget Saxo stuff. Pain and why have something that is a bit iffy.

[tvrolet]

Graham said:

I think Jellyson is refering to a tuscan challenge car not a speed 6. the TC car predates the cerbera... TVRolets car is an ex tuscan challenge car..

'tis indeed a Tuscan Challenge chassis.
Re gearbox, have you considered a Tremek TKO600? There are a couple of real advantages over the T5/T56.

First, it's rather to 600ft/lb....unlike the T5/T56.

Second, it's got 6 positions for the gear lever, none of which involve remote linkages. As standard with the parts delivered you can mount the lever in 2 positions, and with an add-on cover/adapter thingy you get access to the 4 other positions. When I put the box in the tuscan I put my hand in exactly where I eanted the lever to be, and lo and behold that was one of the available positions

Third - against the T56, it's a five spead box, not 6. With the big torque of a chevy, I didn't want/need to keep swapping cogs to keep the thing on song.

Not the downsides. It's a BIG box. Not long, but big'n'beefy. I can't confirm it it'll fit in a cerb chassis, but it does fit in the [race] tuscan without mods. The space problem I have is due to the size of the bellhousing, not the box, but it was my choice to put in a hooge steel scattershield rather than a smaller ally housing. I liked the idea of keeping my feet attached to my ankles if the clutch decided to call it a day. But, even with a smaller bellhousing, I'd still be surprised if you could get a TKO600 in and out on its own...my guess is - like mine - you'd only get it in as a unit bolted up to the engine, and getting out out would be a similar engine-out job.

And of course you have to but one. But I got a pretty good price from Standard Transmission and Gear in Austin, Texas (inc shipping), and with what I got for selling the otiginal T5 it didn't hurt too much!

Good luck

[jellison]

TKO's rule. Stiff initially but after 700+ miles and oil change as good as t5 (well almost but can take 600ft/lbs!) t56 rated to 550 (I know none of us are going to get to either!).

I could probably somehow get my box out on its own - but no way I would try - easier to just to pull the lot in one go, which I might do in a few months for a better clutch and large bore hydrualic pipe.

[tvrolet]

Ffirg 005 said:

Thanks Jon - interested in hearing more about the TVRolet conversion and yes, as the first guy to actually make this conversion happen appreciate your comments a lot!

Sorry folks, for the record, mine's got a TKO600, not a T56. And a lakewood scattershield bellhousing, with a McLeaod Magnum Force clutch lurking inside.

Here's a couple of pix from last year before I got the body back on. The top tubes aren't cut at all, but in order to made a wee bit extra space to move the engine/box further back they were 'crimpted' in a bit - sort of made oval at the point where the end of the block and bellhousing would touch, with, if you can imaging it, the outer line of the tube remaining on its original line, and the inner line following a curve. To compensate for the loss of rigidity by narrowing the tubes, triangular plates were pit in below the narrowed section. I actually spoke to Neil Anderson (who designed the chassis in the first place) and he was OK with adding the triangular plates in to put back in any lost strength/rigidity. Also, I have added a second set of mounts either side of the bellhousing, mounted to the bottom rails (also at Neil's suggestion). So my engine/box is mounted at the front on the original chevy block mounts to triangulated tubes linked to the bottom chassis rails, at the bellhousing to the bottom rails, and at the end of the gearbox as per standard. PS, with the engine poisitioned as it fitted, and with the TKO600, the gearbox rear mounting points were the same as the original T5 position although I had to make up a new crossmember.

You don't have to do anything with the top rails though if you don't mind the engine/box being a bit further forward.

However, there WAS some chassis sugtery required at the front. Dunno about the cerb, but on the Tuscan there's a cross tube at front that would get in the way of the chevy motor...or at least my chevy. It was cut and replaced with diagonal tubes - so the same points in the chassis are still linked and braced, but the diagonal cross bracing rather than a tube straight across lets the motor sit lower.

[tvrolet]

jellison said:

TKO's rule. Stiff initially but after 700+ miles and oil change as good as t5 (well almost but can take 600ft/lbs!) t56 rated to 550 (I know none of us are going to get to either!).

maybe not this year, but.....
my engine was bench dyno'd at 485ft/lb with its carb and points ignition. And that was running it's own water pump but not alternator. Plus that was 'tight' just having been built

[jellison]

OOooooo - I wish that chassis was under mine - did make so enquires last year about an ex tuscan racer chassis to put under chim - but they wanted number that were frankly laughable - have to just make do with std and hone it....

[Boosted Ls1]

Very nice pics but I noticed it's not an lsx engine. I suspect the lsx may be a bit more compact then the small block you're using, just for information of course.

Boosted.

[Graham]

Boosted Ls1 said:

Very nice pics but I noticed it's not an lsx engine. I suspect the lsx may be a bit more compact then the small block you're using, just for information of course. Boosted.

MMM an lsx is on my shopping list for next season if we decide we need more power. its very tight at the back with an rv8 in there so im not sure i'll get an lsx back as far as i want, and i dont want to mod the chassis or body..

when we fitted the v8 I was sure they designed the chassis for a 1.6 ford xflow!!!

G

[tvrolet]

Boosted Ls1 said:

Very nice pics but I noticed it's not an lsx engine. I suspect the lsx may be a bit more compact then the small block you're using, just for information of course. Boosted.

ah yes, but to get my car legally on the road, using an ancient 4-bolt mains iron block as the basis of the build means my emmissions requirements are limited to 'no visible smoke' only , so I should be able to get a 'new' car registered with a carb and no cats

[jellison]

tvrolet said:

Boosted Ls1 said: Very nice pics but I noticed it's not an lsx engine. I suspect the lsx may be a bit more compact then the small block you're using, just for information of course. Boosted. ah yes, but to get my car legally on the road, using an ancient 4-bolt mains iron block as the basis of the build means my emmissions requirements are limited to 'no visible smoke' only , so I should be able to get a 'new' car registered with a carb and no cats

so lighter engine vs cats? Why not later LSx with injection. Don't get me wrong both are the nuts - have to see yours when finished - Brands late summer for mini monster! Select nutter cars!